N2EY wrote:

Thanks for a complete and concise answer, Hans. And for showing that
it's not just the bottom line that drives business decisions.

Ah, but I think you missed the best part of the whole message, Jim. Every
action I described has a tendency to reduce my overall cost of goods sold,
either in reducing fixed factory costs, in reduced variable costs, in
higher inventory turns, in shorter manufacturing cycles, in better cash
flow, or in reduced headcount. All of that DOES drop directly to my bottom
line.

73, de Hans, K0HB

"Mike Coslo" wrote

The present paradigm will undoubtably hold sway until accountants see
*thier* jobs shipped out to a third world country.

Don't look now, but accounting is one of the "back office" functions which
most manufacturing companies have outsourced to India and similar places a
***long*** time ago.

73, de Hans, K0HB

"N2EY" wrote in message
...

One thing *has* changed in the past 30-odd years. There used to be a lot
of
jobs that a kid with a high-school diploma could get, that would lead up
the
ladder to better paying jobs. Today those jobs take a college degree. Call
it
education inflation or whatever, it's a fact.


That's because all too often these days that high school diploma is
insufficient to prove the applicant can even read and write.

Dee D. Flint, N8UZE

"N2EY" wrote in message
...
In article , Mike Coslo
writes:

As I recall reading a while back, in 1950, it took 14 percent of an
average workers income to put a roof over "his head". That may have
changed a little bit! 8^)

It changed big time. Same for medical and education costs.

However as noted in later in this same post for cars (now snipped), people
now demand more features in that house and more room in that house that was
common in 1950. So it's an apples to oranges comparison.

Dee D. Flint, N8UZE

"Dee D. Flint" wrote in message
.com...

"Ryan, KC8PMX" wrote in message
...
Yeah..... that may be true but circumstances now have forced many to
suffer
with it as a "living" wage.


Yeah that's the same "victim" argument some of my friends made when I went
to college and they didn't. But I sacrificed to go to college. My
parents
didn't pay for it.


Thats assuming a certain age too. I have sacraficed as well, but do the
math, at 5-7 bucks an hour, trying to support your self, in the minimal of
settings, (housing, transportation etc.) and also have funds to pay for
college does not always work as conviently as you prescribe. I have been
working on my degree since 1989, and am almost done. Unfortunately you live
in some type of world where kids are allowed to live with the parents above
the age of 18. Myself, as well as many others do not have that luxury.



I worked a minimum wage job, lived at home, did not buy a car, did not buy
records and so on. I put the money aside and did without so I could go to
college. So that "circumstances" argument is pretty shakey. And don't
try
the "pregnant and alone teenager" argument either. I knew some of them in
college and they made it too.

Again, not all people have the luxury of living off the parents beyond
graduation of high school. To expect every person to have been in the exact
same circumstances as you is also pretty shakey as well. As far as the
pregnant teenager issue, I wasn't gonna mention that one either.


People allow themselves to fail and become victims of circumstance.

Following that logic, then the people IN the WTC buildings are also as well
then......


Ryan KC8PMX

On 13 Nov 2003 01:29:13 GMT, N2EY wrote:

Trouble is finding foreigners who are knowledgeable about American accounting
practices - particularly for tax purposes.

Ten years ago there were few if any qualified computer professionals
in those third-world countres to which we now "offshore" more and
more of our technical expertise. Now there is a plethora of same.

Finding trained "foreign professionals" is no big deal anymore. I
have met many US-qualified accountants from the Pacific Rim when I
lived in a neighborhood adjacent to one with a large population of
such immmigrants in California.

--
73 de K2ASP - Phil Kane

Hey, I hate to interrupt the historical and political discussion, but I have
a Ham Radio - related question.

Sorry to abruptly drift back on-topic like this, but what is the latest poop
on the BPL rollout in Virginia? There has been more than enough time for
something to have happened... So what happened?

Charles Brabham, N5PVL

I didn't think Jim would every go that "low" but a kid to me is someone
almost in the college years! (somewhere between 18-21..... hi hi) Never
would have implied child labor (under 14.)


--
Ryan KC8PMX

Never take life seriously. Nobody gets out alive anyway.

"Mike Coslo" wrote in message
et...
N2EY wrote:


As for "a job a kid could do", rest assured that if some employers could
use
child labor, they would - and pay 'em less than minimum wage, too.

Hehe, that brings us to one of the reasons that U****S got started in
the first place. The employers *were* using children, *were* paying them
almost nothing, and abusing them most terribly.

So the people who argue that raising the minimum wage is putting young
people out of work do know what they are talking about!

- Mike KB3EIA -

Then they're bums, pure and simple - not "union bums".

If they are bums, and part of a union, then the logic displayed here by
certain others dictates they are by definition then, "union bums."
I don't get any union protection whatsoever... why should they?



As for "a job a kid could do", rest assured that if some employers could
use
child labor, they would - and pay 'em less than minimum wage, too.

Hmmm, did I say child labor or kids..... kids in reference to me was
referring to the teeny boppers up til around somewhere between 18-21.


The basic concept that Dwight is talking about is a "living wage" -
meaning jobs that pay enough in wages and benefits to permit people to
live above the poverty line *without* government help. Yes, paying a
living wage makes products and services cost more, but it also removes
people from the govt. support system.

So.... basically, one way or another people have to pay for it, be it in
higher service/product costs or paying in taxes for a government program.

Sure. But which is more efficient economically - private industry or the
govt.
programs?


Not really sure, but if the costs were about the same, I am not really sure
if there would be a difference.
Not saying I support government intervention either....


Some say "the marketplace" should set wages. But "the marketplace" is
tilted by a bunch of factors, such as the exportation of jobs and the
importation of workers.

Yes, that is what is called an idealism, but in reality it doesn't work
that
way. Let's look at my county for example..... Republican owners of
businesses and places to rent charge considerably higher for products,
services and housing. These are also in most of the cases the employers
in
the area. For example, on average, a single bedroom apartment cannot be
found for less than $350-400. That does not even include utilities.

That's actually quite inexpensive compared to a lot of places.

Yeah... but the "living wage, or prevailing minimum wage" is higher in
those "other places" I would have to imagine.


The
average wage around here, what is considered the alleged "living" or
minimum
wage is between $5.25-6.00 per hour. Now, do the math on that. The
first
of the normal 2 paychecks (paid every 2 weeks) each month barely even
covers the rent, let alone the utilities. Factor in transportation of
any
means, and basic food needs, and that exceeds the second check.

Sure - but that's if you live alone.

Yeah..... true, but so far I have not seen anything around here like some
type of "roommate arranger" or anything like that. In fact I am almost
hesitant to roommate with anyone I do not know almost as well as I know
family members. When living in the crotch of Michigan, otherwise known as
Flint, I lost everything to my name because of one of the two roommates had
some outstanding debt to some shady characters, that I wasn't even aware of
because on the surface the person seemed as credible as most anyone in this
newsgroup. Lost all my photography gear, computer, SCUBA gear, and DJ
equipment and music collection at the time, to a tune of almost $10,000
worth of stuff.

And as another posted in this thread somewhere, it is not always feasable to
"mooch off the parents" for alot of people, although some are fortunate
enough to do so.



This does
not include for any savings, clothing or medicine purchases and of course
nothing in the "entertainment" category on the spreadsheet.
That is why alot of people around here are forced to work two jobs.
Problem
there is, there is no time left over for family or even better, trying to
take classes to get a degree to get out of the ruts. Typically in my
area
as well, certain market indicators such as milk, bread, gasoline etc, is
at
least 10-20 percent higher than surrounding counties. Basically they
want
you to work for as little as possible, but charge ya up the ying-yang for
everything. Guess that is the American way eh?

Supply and demand. Obviously there's no labor shortage there, so the
employers
control the wages. The answer is to vote with your feet.
The "living wage" concept and reality are largely a result of
organized labor unions leveling the playing field a bit by unifying
the many workers in negotiating with the relatively few employees. The
really smart employers learned to treat their workers well enough that
they wouldn't unionize.

Look at what working conditions were like in various industries
100-150 years ago, before organized labor had any real power.

Just like they are for non-unionized labor now! hihi

Because of the weakening of the unions.


Only if all jobs had union protectionism schemes helping them.




Yep. $20,000/yr isn't much at all anymore in many parts of the
country. Not to raise a family, anyway.

Or for a single person either...... that 20,000 grand is PRE-TAX and
PRE-BENEFIT (if any) and can quickly become as low as 13,000-15,000
dollars
depending on the circumstances.

The trick is to go where the good jobs are...

Again, that is not always feasable as well. My last move cost almost $1,000
that I have recently paid off to a friend who was generous enough to loan me
the money to do so. (fortunately he allowed me to stretch the payments
out.)


As for the $15 burrito and coke at Taco Bell, think about this:

At least here in EPA, we have a decent selection of independent diners
as an alternative to the fast food chains. The food in them is not
much more expensive than the chains, and usually better for you. The
workers in those places make at least as much as the fast food chains.
One reason for their survival is that they don't spend bazillions on
advertising. Another is local loyalty of customers.

So what's the answer, Dwight - Ryan - Kim?

I don't assume to have all of the answers, but I am sure that you can go
through just about any company or organization and thin out the
dead-wood.

That depends on the company. Many are constantly doing just that.

People who just are not returning equivalent value for the service they
are
supposed to provide as an employee. There is a case of 3 people who are
"riding the clock out" in my full time employment place of work. And
compared to the remainder of the department they are making more than
twice
our wages for similar/same work but just have been here a while. With
those
three people to finally retire or move on, that would allow for at least
4-5
more people to replace them, that will ACTUALLY WORK, and still allow for
the rest of the department to get a $1.00 per hour raise, and STILL SAVE
SOME MONEY on overall department wages.

How?

If there are 3 people slacking, they could probably be replaced by 1 or 2
good
workers, not 4 or 5.

Yes, but the 3 people are also by raises and cost of living allowances
(COLA's) are making almost 15 bucks per hour, (45 dollars per hour total)
and in the same positions, and same level of responsibility, but just have
been around quite a while and never moved anywhere within the department..

Now hiring at least four people at say 8 bucks an hour to start, (higher
than they normally do right now) makes 32 dollars an hour, plus giving the
other 6 people a dollar an hour raise which would bring all employees up to
at least 8 dollars or more per hour, which now gives us a total of 38
dollars an hour cost for the four new people and giving the existing ones a
raise, which would boost the moral as well. Still leaves a savings of about
7 bucks per hour, or they could spend 1 dollar more per hour and have a
total of five people and use up that seven an hour savings. That would give
us 5 actually working employees instead of 3 that don't do much.



The math has been figured out here
on this and it is true....

The other answer is for employers to finally see the value in helping the
employee with training/education. If an employer is credible enough, the
employee will stay with that employer with the new training they have
recieved.

Both my present and former employers do that.

Not the majority around here. There are some that are intelligent enough to
see the value in training and continuing education. I myself pursue at
least 120-150 hours each year in continuing education credits.



Even though people want to believe otherwise, there are more and more
people
having to, and trying to survive on what were supposed to be considered
"high school kid" jobs.

Why?

Do they refuse to relocate?

Unless it is something new, I have yet to see any organization, public or
private that assists with moving/relocation costs. Someone making less than
10 bucks per hour pre-tax/pre-benefit cannot afford to pick up and move
across the country that easy.

Do they lack education and other qualifications?

That is a possibility, but I cannot speak for others. There is the "who you
know" factor as well. Many unqualified people get those jobs where a
qualified person didn't, merely by who they knew. (or what butt they kissed)



One thing *has* changed in the past 30-odd years. There used to be a lot
of
jobs that a kid with a high-school diploma could get, that would lead up
the
ladder to better paying jobs. Today those jobs take a college degree. Call
it
education inflation or whatever, it's a fact.

That is true 100%. I have been working on my degree since 1989, as finances
allow.


--
Ryan KC8PMX

Health is merely the slowest possible rate at which one can die.

"KØHB" wrote in message
link.net...
"Mike Coslo" wrote

The present paradigm will undoubtably hold sway until accountants see
*thier* jobs shipped out to a third world country.

Don't look now, but accounting is one of the "back office" functions which
most manufacturing companies have outsourced to India and similar places a
***long*** time ago.

73, de Hans, K0HB



Yep, sure have and did! And, along with that, customer service/support is
"shipped"overseas quite often. When you call the "local" help group for a
service you're purchasing, or product, it's likely you're talking to someone
in the Phillipines.

Kim W5TIT