KØHB wrote:
"N2EY" wrote


The 800 pound budget gorillas are defense spending, Medicare and
Social Security.

Social Security is pretty much self-funded, and in fact has been tapped from
time to time for deficits in the general fund.

Social Security has only been separately accounted for since 1986. Before
that payroll tax revenue and SS expenditures went to and from the general
fund and so were indistiguishable from other taxes and expenditures, which
is where the habit of lumping it all together came from. SS has been
generating a surplus since Reagan raised the payroll tax (in 1983 or so)
and separated out the accounting, and I think now SS owns over $3 trillion
in US government debt.

This is with baby boomers still working, however. Since the separately
accounted SS is essentially an insurance policy its financial health needs
to be determined from actuarial tables, rather than from a simple
current balance, since most SS liabilities are still in the future. The
fact that SS was actuarily insolvent in the early 80's was why Reagan
(back in the days when there was some adult attention paid to the country's
fiscal state) cranked up the payroll tax to ensure that current surpluses
sufficient to cover future liabilities were generated.

The only reason I point this out is that the current Congress generated
a report a couple of years ago showing that SS would be unable to meet
its obligations by, I think, 2014. The study reached this result by
assuming the federal debt owed to SS would never be repaid, which suggests
that the current government is again treating the payroll tax and SS
payments as contributions to and expenditures from the general fund.

Dennis Ferguson

"Dennis Ferguson" wrote in message
...
Dee D. Flint wrote:
"Kim W5TIT" wrote in message
...
But, if it meant a) one tax for all--no tax breaks for any, at about
10-14%
per person and entity, b) taxing even religious institutions--anything
outside of actual *church* and parish properties, c) cutting the fat
from
the equation, both in terms of programs and personnel; and there was
still
a
need for higher taxes, I'd be willing to pay my *fair* share.

Kim W5TIT



The average person is already paying nearly half their income in taxes if
you include all taxes plus the ones you pay indirectly. This is hardly
reasonable nor would it be reasonable for anyone to pay even more.

Where did your 50% number for the average person come from? Since
revenues from all levels of government, as well as the nation's gross
income, are well known, the average of all taxes isn't a difficult
number to compute with some precision.

In fact the Tax Foundation (which should be called the Anti-Tax
Foundation,
their interests would never lead them to underestimate this number) does
exactly this to calculate their "Tax Freedom Day", seen at

http://www.taxfoundation.org/taxfreedomday.html

Tax freedom day this year was April 19, meaning the average total tax
burden
was 30%. Note that the tax burden for the median wage earner was probably
somewhat less than this since higher tax rates on corporate income and the
wealthy tend to skew the average higher (see the "Q&A about critiques..."
link on the same page).

I hence can't see how you concluded that the average American's total tax
burden is anywhere near 50% of their income. I also recently saw (but
have
since lost) a table which showed comparative tax burdens for 36
industrialized
nations. Only the northern-most European countries have total tax burdens
in the 50% ballpark, while US taxes in 2003 were 35th on the list, with
only
Mexico lower (in 2000, Japan and Korea were also lower). Not that this
suggests the US is in any way under-taxed; if you add in the additional
12%
of income spent on private medical care you end up within a few percent,
plus or minus, of the tax burdens in Canada and (south-)Western European
countries which fund medical care via taxes.

I don't know how you define what is "reasonable" for someone to pay, and
I certainly wish I paid less tax rather than more, but it is the case that
you get about what you pay for. For an example of an industrialized
country
with significantly lower taxes one can look to, say, China, and observe
that
to get this tax rate one would also need to live with China-like
infrastructure and services. This isn't a tradeoff I'd recommend,
personally.

Dennis Ferguson

An out of date number from when I paid attention to it a few years ago. At
the time "Tax Freedom Day" was sometime in May. So at that time it was
almost 50%. European countries at the time were a higher percentage.

However it does not mean that the US is undertaxed but instead that
Europeans are overtaxed.

Dee D. Flint, N8UZE

"JJ" wrote in message
...
Dave Heil wrote:


Why would paying for your doctor visits and your medications be the
government's responsibility?

Dave K8MN

Do you pay for all your doctor visits and medications, or does some
insurance pay for a good portion of it? I suppose when you are eligible
for Medicare you are going to refuse it, after all,it should not be the
governments responsibility to pay for your medical, Right?


Remember we all pay for our insurance. And don't say the company that
employs you pays for it. That's a smokescreen. What they pay could just as
well go into your paycheck so you could afford to pay for it yourself.

The government has taken every step possible to insure that we will NOT have
the money to pay for our own insurance and our own health care. Instead
they prefer that we depend on them to do it. That is potentially a bad
situation as it depending on the government is risky. One can easily pay in
all their lives and yet be severely limited on benefits eligibility.
Investing in private benefits would allow one to have benefits commensurate
with what they paid in.

Dee D. Flint, N8UZE

Kim W5TIT wrote:
"JJ" wrote in message
...

Larry Roll K3LT wrote:



Jim:

Most EU countries are much better suited for mass transit (meaning light

rail

systems) than is the U.S. as a whole. Sure, they're good in big cities,

but

the
USA has too many wide open spaces and too much suburban sprawl -- making
long commutes necessary for the majority of the workforce. This means

we're

going to be dependent on personal, self-driven vehicles for a long time

to

come. Moreover, I don't think that adapting our public transit systems

to be

as accessible and accommodating to the majority of commuters as those in

the EU

would cost far more than they are spending. Remember, they had a

headstart on

their transit systems, dating back to the pre-war era. They also have a

higher

level of cultural acceptence of mass transit -- many EU families have

never

owned an automobile, simply because there was no need (not to mention

the

prohibitive cost).

The long distances which must be travelled by most Americans to get to

work and

go about their daily duties would make EU-style gasoline prices

impossible for

the average person to afford. Our economy depends on cheap, abundant

energy,

available at present-day market rates (or lower) basically in

perpetuity. The

liberal, socialist Democrats think we need to change that and have

EU-type

energy prices, but they hate this country anyway, and want us to be

subjugated

to the EU. These treasonous wackos won't be happy until we revert to a

totally

agrarian society. They are the enemies of the freedom that America

stands for,

and must be treated as such.

Europe will always be different from the U.S., and considering their
geopolitical realities, it is just the way it should be. However, since

most

of the EU nations would fit inside a couple of our states, America must

be

different. We must consume a larger share of the world's energy simply

because

we have a lot further to go in order to make our own individual social

and

economic contributions. I agree that mass transit should be exploited

to the

greatest extent possible, but it will never replace the need for

individual,

personal mobility -- meaning the private automobile, in all of it's

forms.

73 de Larry, K3LT

The U.S. does need to develope better mass transit in large
metropolitian areas. When I lived in the Dallas/Ft. Worth, Texas area,
the two cities were always complaining about the heavy commute traffic
and how they were not using the available mass transit system. The would
encourage people to car pool or use what mass transit was available, all
the while they were expanding the freeway system to accomodate more
vehicles. If you want people to use mass transit you have to 1) build a
good mass transit system, and 2) don't build massive freeway systems
that make it easier for people to drive their vehicles to work than ride
mass transit.



I tired mass transit when I first started working downtown. Nothing
convenient, friendly, safe, or good about it at all. It was scarey because
of the drivers, inconvenient because I had to work my schedule around
theirs, unfriendly people getting on and off knocking others with their
asses or briefcases, and I'll never do it again.

Along similar lines, I tried the local version of mass transit. I had to
wait 30 minutes for the bus, then undergo a very circuitous route, and
still had to walk a quarter mile. Leaving work at 5:00, I got home a
couple minutes after 7:00 p.m. 2 hours to go the 2.5 miles from work to
home!!!!!

- Mike KB3EIA -

"Alun" wrote in message
...
"Kim W5TIT" wrote in
:

"Dave Heil" wrote in message
...
JJ wrote:

Kim W5TIT wrote:



You know what? I am not so sure that it would take all that much,
Jim. I am not even going to pretend to be a financier, but I
wonder how much of the Federal Budget, i.e. your and my tax
dollars, get spent away from our country. Then, how much foreign
debt is "forgiven" each year?

I would wager we could cut the foreigh aid we send to support those
little ****ant dictators in some of those ****ant countries and have
more than enough to provide good health care for every citizen.

Foreign aid goes a long way toward having those countries vote in the
U.N. in line with our policies.


Yeah, money always has been very easy to throw around, 'specially when
it's someone else's. There's other ways to win friends and influence
people--and ways that would mean a lot more and build better alliances
in the longrun.


Some of it puts military officers from
third world countries through *our* military academies. It gives
those officers a chance to live in the U.S. and see how our system
works.


Yeah, so they can go and influence a bunch of rebels in their or other
homelands and train enemies to the US. We don't need someone learning
"our" way of doing things...let them figure it out for themselves.


Some of the aid brings scholars to the U.S. to study.


So they can go back to their land, grow a company, and somehow through
many different ways, we end up losing jobs and capital over here.


If we build a
needed flood control dam in Sierra Leone, good will toward the United
States is generated.


Give them a very, very low interest loan with a good down payment and
let them build their own damned dam.



A decade or so back, Botswana actually weaned
itself from U.S. aid and thanked us.


'Sbout damned time...although I doubt they're as "weaned" as they
should be or are.


Why would paying for your doctor visits and your medications be the
government's responsibility?

Dave K8MN


Uh, because *we live* in this country? So, you disagree with programs
that improve our infrastructure that is pitiful, helps our kids and
elderly with healthcare and even education, begins an effort to ending
welfare for the capable, improves health conditions nationwide--and
more, while our government is off in other lands playing Godfather?!
Figures, Dave.

The people of this country who are being taxed to the hilt are paying
for the backbone of crap in this country and the rest of the world.
It's time the rest of the world and the nitwits in this country get
pushed out of the nest. But, of course that ain't happenin' any time
soon.

Kim W5TIT




FWIW I agree 100% with you, Kim. Paying for health care and mass transit
would be far more worthwhile than most of the things the government does
with tax revenue. Their priorities are completely backwards.


And, it's not unique to the US Gov't. The priorities of a gov't. are not
the priorities of its people; it is the people's priorities they defy.

Kim W5TIT

JJ wrote:

Dave Heil wrote:


Why would paying for your doctor visits and your medications be the
government's responsibility?


Do you pay for all your doctor visits and medications, or does some
insurance pay for a good portion of it? I suppose when you are eligible
for Medicare you are going to refuse it, after all,it should not be the
governments responsibility to pay for your medical, Right?

I'm not old enough for medicare and it matters not whether insurance
covers my visits or medications. Fact is: Government is not paying for
my medical care nor do I feel that I have a right to government
subsidized medical care. That said, care to answer my question?

Dave K8MN

Kim W5TIT wrote:

"Dave Heil" wrote in message
...
JJ wrote:

Kim W5TIT wrote:



You know what? I am not so sure that it would take all that much,
Jim. I
am not even going to pretend to be a financier, but I wonder how much
of the
Federal Budget, i.e. your and my tax dollars, get spent away from our
country. Then, how much foreign debt is "forgiven" each year?

I would wager we could cut the foreigh aid we send to support those
little ****ant dictators in some of those ****ant countries and have
more than enough to provide good health care for every citizen.

Foreign aid goes a long way toward having those countries vote in the
U.N. in line with our policies.


Yeah, money always has been very easy to throw around, 'specially when it's
someone else's.

It isn't "someone else's" money, Kim. It is government money obtained
from those Americans who pay taxes. The money is being spent in the
interest of the people of the U.S.


There's other ways to win friends and influence people--and
ways that would mean a lot more and build better alliances in the longrun.

What would you suggest, takeovers of countries or free beer at the U.S.
embassy on Friday evenings?


Some of it puts military officers from
third world countries through *our* military academies. It gives those
officers a chance to live in the U.S. and see how our system works.


Yeah, so they can go and influence a bunch of rebels in their or other
homelands and train enemies to the US.

Is that what you believe is happening?

We don't need someone learning "our"
way of doing things...let them figure it out for themselves.

Not much chance of that. You live here and you haven't figured it out.


Some of the aid brings scholars to the U.S. to study.


So they can go back to their land, grow a company, and somehow through many
different ways, we end up losing jobs and capital over here.

Do you believe that is the purpose for bringing foreign students to the
U.S. for schooling?


If we build a
needed flood control dam in Sierra Leone, good will toward the United
States is generated.


Give them a very, very low interest loan with a good down payment and let
them build their own damned dam.

That is quite often done. On other occasions, the money comes in the
form of a grant. The actual construction, by the way, is often done by
U.S. companies.


A decade or so back, Botswana actually weaned
itself from U.S. aid and thanked us.


'Sbout damned time...although I doubt they're as "weaned" as they should be
or are.

....but that's probably just another thing you know little about, huh?


Why would paying for your doctor visits and your medications be the
government's responsibility?


Uh, because *we live* in this country?

Yeah? So? How does that entitle you to free medical care?

So, you disagree with programs that
improve our infrastructure that is pitiful, helps our kids and elderly with
healthcare and even education, begins an effort to ending welfare for the
capable, improves health conditions nationwide--and more, while our
government is off in other lands playing Godfather?! Figures, Dave.

I don't believe that most Americans believe that anyone other than those
children and elderly people should be given free or subsidized health
care.

The people of this country who are being taxed to the hilt are paying for
the backbone of crap in this country and the rest of the world.

They're paying for what?

It's time
the rest of the world and the nitwits in this country get pushed out of the
nest. But, of course that ain't happenin' any time soon.

There's the Lucy Van Pelt view of Foreign Policy for you. Why don't you
stick to things you know something about...as soon as you figure out
what those might be?

Dave K8MN

"Dave Heil" wrote in message
...
Kim W5TIT wrote:

"Dave Heil" wrote in message
...
JJ wrote:

Kim W5TIT wrote:



You know what? I am not so sure that it would take all that much,
Jim. I
am not even going to pretend to be a financier, but I wonder how
much
of the
Federal Budget, i.e. your and my tax dollars, get spent away from
our
country. Then, how much foreign debt is "forgiven" each year?

I would wager we could cut the foreigh aid we send to support those
little ****ant dictators in some of those ****ant countries and have
more than enough to provide good health care for every citizen.

Foreign aid goes a long way toward having those countries vote in the
U.N. in line with our policies.


Yeah, money always has been very easy to throw around, 'specially when
it's
someone else's.

It isn't "someone else's" money, Kim. It is government money obtained
from those Americans who pay taxes. The money is being spent in the
interest of the people of the U.S.


There's other ways to win friends and influence people--and
ways that would mean a lot more and build better alliances in the
longrun.

What would you suggest, takeovers of countries or free beer at the U.S.
embassy on Friday evenings?


Some of it puts military officers from
third world countries through *our* military academies. It gives
those
officers a chance to live in the U.S. and see how our system works.


Yeah, so they can go and influence a bunch of rebels in their or other
homelands and train enemies to the US.

Is that what you believe is happening?

We don't need someone learning "our"
way of doing things...let them figure it out for themselves.

Not much chance of that. You live here and you haven't figured it out.


Some of the aid brings scholars to the U.S. to study.


So they can go back to their land, grow a company, and somehow through
many
different ways, we end up losing jobs and capital over here.

Do you believe that is the purpose for bringing foreign students to the
U.S. for schooling?


If we build a
needed flood control dam in Sierra Leone, good will toward the United
States is generated.


Give them a very, very low interest loan with a good down payment and
let
them build their own damned dam.

That is quite often done. On other occasions, the money comes in the
form of a grant. The actual construction, by the way, is often done by
U.S. companies.


A decade or so back, Botswana actually weaned
itself from U.S. aid and thanked us.


'Sbout damned time...although I doubt they're as "weaned" as they should
be
or are.

...but that's probably just another thing you know little about, huh?


Why would paying for your doctor visits and your medications be the
government's responsibility?


Uh, because *we live* in this country?

Yeah? So? How does that entitle you to free medical care?

So, you disagree with programs that
improve our infrastructure that is pitiful, helps our kids and elderly
with
healthcare and even education, begins an effort to ending welfare for
the
capable, improves health conditions nationwide--and more, while our
government is off in other lands playing Godfather?! Figures, Dave.

I don't believe that most Americans believe that anyone other than those
children and elderly people should be given free or subsidized health
care.

The people of this country who are being taxed to the hilt are paying
for
the backbone of crap in this country and the rest of the world.

They're paying for what?

It's time
the rest of the world and the nitwits in this country get pushed out of
the
nest. But, of course that ain't happenin' any time soon.

There's the Lucy Van Pelt view of Foreign Policy for you. Why don't you
stick to things you know something about...as soon as you figure out
what those might be?

Dave K8MN


I think you're about the hugest piece of crap I've been witness to in a
long, long time, Dave Heil. You go back into your silver spoon 'gain,
now... Buh bye...get another book.

Kim W5TIT

"Dave Heil" wrote in message
...
Kim W5TIT wrote:

"Dave Heil" wrote in message
...
JJ wrote:

Kim W5TIT wrote:



You know what? I am not so sure that it would take all that much,
Jim. I
am not even going to pretend to be a financier, but I wonder how
much
of the
Federal Budget, i.e. your and my tax dollars, get spent away from
our
country. Then, how much foreign debt is "forgiven" each year?

I would wager we could cut the foreigh aid we send to support those
little ****ant dictators in some of those ****ant countries and have
more than enough to provide good health care for every citizen.

Foreign aid goes a long way toward having those countries vote in the
U.N. in line with our policies.


Yeah, money always has been very easy to throw around, 'specially when
it's
someone else's.

It isn't "someone else's" money, Kim. It is government money obtained
from those Americans who pay taxes. The money is being spent in the
interest of the people of the U.S.


There's other ways to win friends and influence people--and
ways that would mean a lot more and build better alliances in the
longrun.

What would you suggest, takeovers of countries or free beer at the U.S.
embassy on Friday evenings?


Some of it puts military officers from
third world countries through *our* military academies. It gives
those
officers a chance to live in the U.S. and see how our system works.


Yeah, so they can go and influence a bunch of rebels in their or other
homelands and train enemies to the US.

Is that what you believe is happening?

We don't need someone learning "our"
way of doing things...let them figure it out for themselves.

Not much chance of that. You live here and you haven't figured it out.


Some of the aid brings scholars to the U.S. to study.


So they can go back to their land, grow a company, and somehow through
many
different ways, we end up losing jobs and capital over here.

Do you believe that is the purpose for bringing foreign students to the
U.S. for schooling?


If we build a
needed flood control dam in Sierra Leone, good will toward the United
States is generated.


Give them a very, very low interest loan with a good down payment and
let
them build their own damned dam.

That is quite often done. On other occasions, the money comes in the
form of a grant. The actual construction, by the way, is often done by
U.S. companies.


A decade or so back, Botswana actually weaned
itself from U.S. aid and thanked us.


'Sbout damned time...although I doubt they're as "weaned" as they should
be
or are.

...but that's probably just another thing you know little about, huh?


Why would paying for your doctor visits and your medications be the
government's responsibility?


Uh, because *we live* in this country?

Yeah? So? How does that entitle you to free medical care?

So, you disagree with programs that
improve our infrastructure that is pitiful, helps our kids and elderly
with
healthcare and even education, begins an effort to ending welfare for
the
capable, improves health conditions nationwide--and more, while our
government is off in other lands playing Godfather?! Figures, Dave.

I don't believe that most Americans believe that anyone other than those
children and elderly people should be given free or subsidized health
care.

The people of this country who are being taxed to the hilt are paying
for
the backbone of crap in this country and the rest of the world.

They're paying for what?

It's time
the rest of the world and the nitwits in this country get pushed out of
the
nest. But, of course that ain't happenin' any time soon.

There's the Lucy Van Pelt view of Foreign Policy for you. Why don't you
stick to things you know something about...as soon as you figure out
what those might be?

Dave K8MN

Dave,

You are wasting your time. Twit is a self proclaimed 'flower child' (of
the mid 70s !!!). Which translated means she is a braindead socialist
thinking Demoncrat.

Dan/W4NTI

"Kim W5TIT" wrote in message
...
"Dave Heil" wrote in message
...
Kim W5TIT wrote:

"Dave Heil" wrote in message
...
JJ wrote:

Kim W5TIT wrote:



You know what? I am not so sure that it would take all that
much,
Jim. I
am not even going to pretend to be a financier, but I wonder how
much
of the
Federal Budget, i.e. your and my tax dollars, get spent away
from
our
country. Then, how much foreign debt is "forgiven" each year?

I would wager we could cut the foreigh aid we send to support
those
little ****ant dictators in some of those ****ant countries and
have
more than enough to provide good health care for every citizen.

Foreign aid goes a long way toward having those countries vote in
the
U.N. in line with our policies.


Yeah, money always has been very easy to throw around, 'specially when
it's
someone else's.

It isn't "someone else's" money, Kim. It is government money obtained
from those Americans who pay taxes. The money is being spent in the
interest of the people of the U.S.


There's other ways to win friends and influence people--and
ways that would mean a lot more and build better alliances in the
longrun.

What would you suggest, takeovers of countries or free beer at the U.S.
embassy on Friday evenings?


Some of it puts military officers from
third world countries through *our* military academies. It gives
those
officers a chance to live in the U.S. and see how our system works.


Yeah, so they can go and influence a bunch of rebels in their or other
homelands and train enemies to the US.

Is that what you believe is happening?

We don't need someone learning "our"
way of doing things...let them figure it out for themselves.

Not much chance of that. You live here and you haven't figured it out.


Some of the aid brings scholars to the U.S. to study.


So they can go back to their land, grow a company, and somehow through
many
different ways, we end up losing jobs and capital over here.

Do you believe that is the purpose for bringing foreign students to the
U.S. for schooling?


If we build a
needed flood control dam in Sierra Leone, good will toward the
United
States is generated.


Give them a very, very low interest loan with a good down payment and
let
them build their own damned dam.

That is quite often done. On other occasions, the money comes in the
form of a grant. The actual construction, by the way, is often done by
U.S. companies.


A decade or so back, Botswana actually weaned
itself from U.S. aid and thanked us.


'Sbout damned time...although I doubt they're as "weaned" as they
should
be
or are.

...but that's probably just another thing you know little about, huh?


Why would paying for your doctor visits and your medications be the
government's responsibility?


Uh, because *we live* in this country?

Yeah? So? How does that entitle you to free medical care?

So, you disagree with programs that
improve our infrastructure that is pitiful, helps our kids and elderly
with
healthcare and even education, begins an effort to ending welfare for
the
capable, improves health conditions nationwide--and more, while our
government is off in other lands playing Godfather?! Figures, Dave.

I don't believe that most Americans believe that anyone other than those
children and elderly people should be given free or subsidized health
care.

The people of this country who are being taxed to the hilt are paying
for
the backbone of crap in this country and the rest of the world.

They're paying for what?

It's time
the rest of the world and the nitwits in this country get pushed out
of
the
nest. But, of course that ain't happenin' any time soon.

There's the Lucy Van Pelt view of Foreign Policy for you. Why don't you
stick to things you know something about...as soon as you figure out
what those might be?

Dave K8MN


I think you're about the hugest piece of crap I've been witness to in a
long, long time, Dave Heil. You go back into your silver spoon 'gain,
now... Buh bye...get another book.

Kim W5TIT



See what I mean Dave? Totally unable to counter what you said. Because she
knows you are right. Yep,..... a knee jerk, bleeding heart, commie
liberal.

Dan/W4NTI