"Steve Robeson, K4CAP" wrote in message
om...
"Dan/W4NTI" w4nti@get rid of this mindspring.com wrote in message
link.net...
"Steve Robeson, K4CAP" wrote in message
om...

Excuse me Steve, but I don't remember the Jews of Europe, in the pre
NAZI
days, sending in human bombs. Or shooting at soldiers, or declaring
that
Isreal has no right to exist.

I think your compairison is flawed.

Israel has no choice but to fight. If they do not they will indeed
cease to
exist.

Perhaps it was an unbalanced comparison, Dan, but there's several
things that rub me the wrong way.

The first is that the State of Israel was formed, for the most
part, by people who we not born there. They came, they saw, they took
what they wanted and the natives were just "S.O.L.". Yes...I know
this is the same way the US evolved, but it still doesn't make it
right.

Your right, what you say don't make it right. However what really happened
was the UN, by RESOLUTION created the state of Israel. It was carved out
of Palestine which was being vacated by the British. This was about 1947.
Of course the fine ragheads were trying to kill all the Jews before that
happened.
Remember our fine friends over there now...the Jordanians? They were
marching on the Jews as the Brits left. And if the truth be known the
reason Jordan had the butt is they wanted to be in charge of the Jews, i.e.
part of the Kingdom of Jordan. And really didn't want the palestinians
anyway. Just like today. Except they don't want to be in charge, they
just hope the Jews don't get the arse and come over and kick theirs. Ah
how times have changed.



Secondly, the State of Israel is no stranger to spreading a bit
of terror around itself. If you doubt me, do a bit of research on the
Likud Party and one of it's more famous members, Menachim Begin.
Before he got himself elected Prime Minister and invited to break
bread at Camp David, ole Menachim took some special pleasure in
dispatching Palestinians and British alike. Some of the "tactics" you
may recognize as those that the State of Isreal currently cries foul
over now...

I never claimed the Isralies were sheep or Mr. Nice Guy. You fight fire
with fire, period. It must work....Israel is still here and stronger than
ever.


Lastly, the Israelis, in my opinion anyway, still have a lot of
explaining to do for the way they do business with their "friends",
specifically us and the USS Liberty affair. Thier "misidentification"
story still doesn't wash.

Agreed.


My point is this...there's a circle of violence that is occuring
in the Middle East...it's been going on since prehistoric times and
will probably continue until the sun goes nova, so we ought to cut our
losses and leave them to thier lifestyle. They'd not know how to act
any other way.

No arguement here.


Our only valid interest in that region is maintaining the
petroleum flow and free navigation via the Suez Canal. If geological
studies are correct, Russia has petroleum reserves that exceed
anything the Arabs have, so I think rather than sending arms to Israel
and money to the Arabs, we should be investing our engineering
resources farther north. The Arabs would go broke which would
relegate them back to bedouin tents in a generation. No money means
no guns, and the Israelis would no longer need OUR weapons.

Good theory.....but the Israelis don't need OUR weapons. They have their
own.


Of course that would tick off the Germans who'd be selling a lot
fewer Mercedes and Audis, but they'd make up the slack on the back end
selling them in Moscow ! ! !

73

Steve, K4YZ

"Steve Robeson, K4CAP" wrote in message
om...
"Dan/W4NTI" w4nti@get rid of this mindspring.com wrote in message
link.net...
"Steve Robeson, K4CAP" wrote in message
om...

Excuse me Steve, but I don't remember the Jews of Europe, in the pre
NAZI
days, sending in human bombs. Or shooting at soldiers, or declaring
that
Isreal has no right to exist.

I think your compairison is flawed.

Israel has no choice but to fight. If they do not they will indeed
cease to
exist.

Perhaps it was an unbalanced comparison, Dan, but there's several
things that rub me the wrong way.

The first is that the State of Israel was formed, for the most
part, by people who we not born there. They came, they saw, they took
what they wanted and the natives were just "S.O.L.". Yes...I know
this is the same way the US evolved, but it still doesn't make it
right.

Secondly, the State of Israel is no stranger to spreading a bit
of terror around itself. If you doubt me, do a bit of research on the
Likud Party and one of it's more famous members, Menachim Begin.
Before he got himself elected Prime Minister and invited to break
bread at Camp David, ole Menachim took some special pleasure in
dispatching Palestinians and British alike. Some of the "tactics" you
may recognize as those that the State of Isreal currently cries foul
over now...

Lastly, the Israelis, in my opinion anyway, still have a lot of
explaining to do for the way they do business with their "friends",
specifically us and the USS Liberty affair. Thier "misidentification"
story still doesn't wash.

My point is this...there's a circle of violence that is occuring
in the Middle East...it's been going on since prehistoric times and
will probably continue until the sun goes nova, so we ought to cut our
losses and leave them to thier lifestyle. They'd not know how to act
any other way.

Our only valid interest in that region is maintaining the
petroleum flow and free navigation via the Suez Canal. If geological
studies are correct, Russia has petroleum reserves that exceed
anything the Arabs have, so I think rather than sending arms to Israel
and money to the Arabs, we should be investing our engineering
resources farther north. The Arabs would go broke which would
relegate them back to bedouin tents in a generation. No money means
no guns, and the Israelis would no longer need OUR weapons.

Of course that would tick off the Germans who'd be selling a lot
fewer Mercedes and Audis, but they'd make up the slack on the back end
selling them in Moscow ! ! !

73

Steve, K4YZ


Man!!! Will you puhleeze run for President!? Not only *well* said, but
*damned* well said. I know I have never said that well, heard it said that
well, or will ever hear it said that well again, Steve.

Kim W5TIT

"Kim W5TIT" wrote in
:

"Steve Robeson, K4CAP" wrote in message
om...
"Dan/W4NTI" w4nti@get rid of this mindspring.com wrote in message
link.net...
"Steve Robeson, K4CAP" wrote in message
om...

Excuse me Steve, but I don't remember the Jews of Europe, in the
pre NAZI days, sending in human bombs. Or shooting at soldiers, or
declaring that Isreal has no right to exist.

I think your compairison is flawed.

Israel has no choice but to fight. If they do not they will indeed
cease to exist.

Perhaps it was an unbalanced comparison, Dan, but there's several
things that rub me the wrong way.

The first is that the State of Israel was formed, for the most
part, by people who we not born there. They came, they saw, they took
what they wanted and the natives were just "S.O.L.". Yes...I know
this is the same way the US evolved, but it still doesn't make it
right.

Secondly, the State of Israel is no stranger to spreading a bit
of terror around itself. If you doubt me, do a bit of research on the
Likud Party and one of it's more famous members, Menachim Begin.
Before he got himself elected Prime Minister and invited to break
bread at Camp David, ole Menachim took some special pleasure in
dispatching Palestinians and British alike. Some of the "tactics" you
may recognize as those that the State of Isreal currently cries foul
over now...

Lastly, the Israelis, in my opinion anyway, still have a lot of
explaining to do for the way they do business with their "friends",
specifically us and the USS Liberty affair. Thier "misidentification"
story still doesn't wash.

My point is this...there's a circle of violence that is occuring
in the Middle East...it's been going on since prehistoric times and
will probably continue until the sun goes nova, so we ought to cut our
losses and leave them to thier lifestyle. They'd not know how to act
any other way.

Our only valid interest in that region is maintaining the
petroleum flow and free navigation via the Suez Canal. If geological
studies are correct, Russia has petroleum reserves that exceed
anything the Arabs have, so I think rather than sending arms to Israel
and money to the Arabs, we should be investing our engineering
resources farther north. The Arabs would go broke which would
relegate them back to bedouin tents in a generation. No money means
no guns, and the Israelis would no longer need OUR weapons.

Of course that would tick off the Germans who'd be selling a lot
fewer Mercedes and Audis, but they'd make up the slack on the back end
selling them in Moscow ! ! !

73

Steve, K4YZ


Man!!! Will you puhleeze run for President!? Not only *well* said,
but *damned* well said. I know I have never said that well, heard it
said that well, or will ever hear it said that well again, Steve.

Kim W5TIT




Everything Steve said is true. That alone probably disqualifies him from
being a politician.

In article ,
(Steve Robeson, K4CAP) writes:

Our only valid interest in that region is maintaining the
petroleum flow and free navigation via the Suez Canal. If geological
studies are correct, Russia has petroleum reserves that exceed
anything the Arabs have, so I think rather than sending arms to Israel
and money to the Arabs, we should be investing our engineering
resources farther north. The Arabs would go broke which would
relegate them back to bedouin tents in a generation. No money means
no guns, and the Israelis would no longer need OUR weapons.

Steve:

The problem with Russian vs. Arab oil is that the Arabian oil is a whole
lot easier to get at. You poke a hole in the sand, stick a pipe in it,
and out it comes. Moreover, the oil fields are located close to accessible
sea ports, meaning relatively short and inexpensive transport of the oil
to the ships that will carry it away to the customers. I'm not at all
certain, but I'm pretty sure you'd find that Russian oil is not only a
whole lot further away from sea ports, but also a lot harder to drill
for. A hot, arid climate, while not particularly comfortable, is still a
whole lot easier to deal with than a frigid one when it comes to
crude oil production. If Russia's oil were, in fact, economically feasible
to produce, I have no doubt that those resources would be being
exploited to the greatest extent possible.

Of course that would tick off the Germans who'd be selling a lot
fewer Mercedes and Audis, but they'd make up the slack on the back end
selling them in Moscow ! ! !

They'd be better off sending their oil to Japan, which would then oblige
by spewing out Toyotas, Honda's, and Nissans for the Russian market.


73 de Larry, K3LT

"Dan/W4NTI" w4nti@get rid of this mindspring.com wrote in message nk.net...
"Steve Robeson, K4CAP" wrote in message
om...
"Dan/W4NTI" w4nti@get rid of this mindspring.com wrote in message

Your right, what you say don't make it right. However what really happened
was the UN, by RESOLUTION created the state of Israel. It was carved out
of Palestine which was being vacated by the British. This was about 1947.

Understood. But what right did the United Nations have to create
a new "state" when the people who were already living on that land,
and had for centuries, were not party to that act? That would be like
my state's legislature re-zoning YOUR neighborhood!

Of course the fine ragheads were trying to kill all the Jews before that
happened.

And vice-versa. It's a love-hate relationship...Both sides
"love" hating the other side. Made for some sandskrit stories then
and CNN footage now. =)

Remember our fine friends over there now...the Jordanians? They were
marching on the Jews as the Brits left. And if the truth be known the
reason Jordan had the butt is they wanted to be in charge of the Jews, i.e.
part of the Kingdom of Jordan. And really didn't want the palestinians
anyway. Just like today. Except they don't want to be in charge, they
just hope the Jews don't get the arse and come over and kick theirs. Ah
how times have changed.

Interesting bit of history.

Secondly, the State of Israel is no stranger to spreading a bit
of terror around itself. If you doubt me, do a bit of research on the
Likud Party and one of it's more famous members, Menachim Begin.
Before he got himself elected Prime Minister and invited to break
bread at Camp David, ole Menachim took some special pleasure in
dispatching Palestinians and British alike. Some of the "tactics" you
may recognize as those that the State of Isreal currently cries foul
over now...

I never claimed the Isralies were sheep or Mr. Nice Guy. You fight fire
with fire, period. It must work....Israel is still here and stronger than
ever.

But this is my point...where do the Israeli's get off making scuh
a big ta-doo about Palestinian "terrorists" when they are/have been
just as quick to do a bit of artful manipulation of fear themselves?

And they are still around because Uncle Sam has made it his
business to keep Carrier Battle Groups in the Med!

Rest of stuff we agreed on snipped.

Our only valid interest in that region is maintaining the
petroleum flow and free navigation via the Suez Canal. If geological
studies are correct, Russia has petroleum reserves that exceed
anything the Arabs have, so I think rather than sending arms to Israel
and money to the Arabs, we should be investing our engineering
resources farther north. The Arabs would go broke which would
relegate them back to bedouin tents in a generation. No money means
no guns, and the Israelis would no longer need OUR weapons.

Good theory.....but the Israelis don't need OUR weapons. They have their
own.

True...and danged good ones too...However they what they DO need
is the threat of any one of the aforementioned Carrier Battle Groups
showing up to back up Isael's play...

Yes, the Israeli's have one of the finest Armed Forces in the
world, an intellegence agency that is second to none, and some
seriously big cajones to use them all...But if we weren't propping
them up, I doubt that they'd make it a year.

73

Steve, K4YZ

"Kim W5TIT" wrote in message ...

Man!!! Will you puhleeze run for President!? Not only *well* said, but
*damned* well said. I know I have never said that well, heard it said that
well, or will ever hear it said that well again, Steve.

Be careful, Kim...Brain insists that no one likes my "posting style"

Thanks, though!

88

Steve, K4YZ

Alun wrote in message .. .

Everything Steve said is true. That alone probably disqualifies him from
being a politician.

Thank-you, Sir!

Steve, K4YZ

ospam (Larry Roll K3LT) wrote in message ...

The problem with Russian vs. Arab oil is that the Arabian oil is a whole
lot easier to get at. You poke a hole in the sand, stick a pipe in it,
and out it comes. Moreover, the oil fields are located close to accessible
sea ports, meaning relatively short and inexpensive transport of the oil
to the ships that will carry it away to the customers. I'm not at all
certain, but I'm pretty sure you'd find that Russian oil is not only a
whole lot further away from sea ports, but also a lot harder to drill
for. A hot, arid climate, while not particularly comfortable, is still a
whole lot easier to deal with than a frigid one when it comes to
crude oil production. If Russia's oil were, in fact, economically feasible
to produce, I have no doubt that those resources would be being
exploited to the greatest extent possible.

All too true...but then too, the geography lends itself to long
pipelines, and once they were laid in, that existing infrastructure
alone would drop the price of oil.

Besides...Russians and Americans are closer in social and
geopolitical ideologies than Americans and those folks in the Middle
East and SW Asia...So let's spend our money where it's appreciated.

Of course that would tick off the Germans who'd be selling a lot
fewer Mercedes and Audis, but they'd make up the slack on the back end
selling them in Moscow ! ! !

They'd be better off sending their oil to Japan, which would then oblige
by spewing out Toyotas, Honda's, and Nissans for the Russian market.

Just as long as Central Europe keeps it's Tribants!

73

Steve, K4YZ

In article ,
(Steve Robeson, K4CAP) writes:

(Larry Roll K3LT) wrote in message
...

The problem with Russian vs. Arab oil is that the Arabian oil is a whole
lot easier to get at. You poke a hole in the sand, stick a pipe in it,
and out it comes. Moreover, the oil fields are located close to accessible
sea ports, meaning relatively short and inexpensive transport of the oil
to the ships that will carry it away to the customers. I'm not at all
certain, but I'm pretty sure you'd find that Russian oil is not only a
whole lot further away from sea ports, but also a lot harder to drill
for. A hot, arid climate, while not particularly comfortable, is still a
whole lot easier to deal with than a frigid one when it comes to
crude oil production. If Russia's oil were, in fact, economically feasible
to produce, I have no doubt that those resources would be being
exploited to the greatest extent possible.

All too true...but then too, the geography lends itself to long
pipelines, and once they were laid in, that existing infrastructure
alone would drop the price of oil.

Besides...Russians and Americans are closer in social and
geopolitical ideologies than Americans and those folks in the Middle
East and SW Asia...So let's spend our money where it's appreciated.

I don't look upon the country formerly known as the Soviet Union ("Russia"
is actually just a part of it) as being a place which is particularly stable,
from a political standpoint. They now claim to be our allies, but are they
really our friends? Keep in mind the civil strife which continues between
the Russians and the Chechnyans (sp?). How do we know that other
ethnic shredout groups wouldn't try to assert themselves, should they begin
to feel as though they're not getting a fair share of the hegemony?
Keep in mind that there is also a large Islamic population over there,
and that is always going to mean trouble, from a political standpoint.

Of course that would tick off the Germans who'd be selling a lot
fewer Mercedes and Audis, but they'd make up the slack on the back end
selling them in Moscow ! ! !

They'd be better off sending their oil to Japan, which would then oblige
by spewing out Toyotas, Honda's, and Nissans for the Russian market.

Just as long as Central Europe keeps it's Tribants!

That's Traubant, which means "grape." While stationed in Germany, I used
to see them occasionally. Traubant drivers were usually experts in the
navigation of the many back roads of Germany, since they dared not to
venture out on the Autobahns. Their wheezing little 2-cycle engine only
put out about 24 horsepower, the thing simply couldn't accelerate at all.
I've never driven a "Trubby," but I'm told it's a very lawnmower-like
experience.

73 de Larry, K3LT

"Larry Roll K3LT" wrote

That's Traubant, which means "grape." While stationed in Germany, I used
to see them occasionally. Traubant drivers were usually experts in the
navigation of the many back roads of Germany, since they dared not to
venture out on the Autobahns. Their wheezing little 2-cycle engine only
put out about 24 horsepower, the thing simply couldn't accelerate at all.
I've never driven a "Trubby," but I'm told it's a very lawnmower-like
experience.

I spent a month in DL last spring and noticed a few of those still on the
roads. Most of my time was in "previously West Germany", so they may be
more prevalent in other parts of the country. The current
'econo-box-of-choice' seems to be the "SmartCar", a joint effort between
Mercedes and Swatch (yes, the watch company who wanted to launch a ham-radio
satelite with commercial messages a few years ago).

73, de Hans, K0HB