Len Over 21 wrote:

In article , Dave Heil
writes:

Three-fourths of all U.S. radio amateurs are NOT members.

Think on that, Klunk.

I've thought about it.

Made your head hurt?

Not at all.

Poor baby.

I'm not poor and I'm not your baby.

One quarter of U.S. radio amateurs ARE members.

A MINORITY.

The LARGEST organization of radio amateurs in this country. The
minority making up the League's membership vastly exceeds your army of
one.

You still don't understand the difference between "minority" and
"majority," do you?

You are not in either camp.

I'm in our home office right now. Haven't been to "camp" for a while.

Why do you ask?

I asked you nothing. Pay attention.

Is there a morse camp one has to go to in amateur radio?

:-)

Maybe there is a morse camp available. Perhaps it could help with your
morse learning disability. :-) :-)

Dave K8MN

"Dave Heil" wrote:

I hope Dwight Stewart is reading this
and makes some mental connections
between your comments above and
what I wrote to him earlier.


I'm following along, Dave. You seem to be giving just as much as you get.
Len is working hard to pull your strings and you're working hard to pull
just as many strings yourself. And the debate (if you want to call it that)
goes on.


Dwight Stewart (W5NET)

http://www.qsl.net/w5net/

"Dwight Stewart" wrote in message
nk.net...
"Dave Heil" wrote:

I hope Dwight Stewart is reading this
and makes some mental connections
between your comments above and
what I wrote to him earlier.


I'm following along, Dave. You seem to be giving just as much as you
get.
Len is working hard to pull your strings and you're working hard to pull
just as many strings yourself. And the debate (if you want to call it
that)
goes on.


Dwight Stewart (W5NET)

http://www.qsl.net/w5net/


pssssst, I think Len is superior at pulling Dave's strings...

Kim W5TIT

In article om, "Dee D.
Flint" writes:

"Dave Heil" wrote in message
...
Len Over 21 wrote:
[snip]
Three-fourths of all licensed U.S. radio amateurs "took that view"
and are NOT members.

You have no idea of the views held by those radio amateurs who are or
are not members of the ARRL, Leonard. You aren't a player from within
or without.


And there are simply a lot of people who are not joiners. What percent of
the seniors belong to AARP? What percent of gun owners belong to the NRA.

What percentage of US hams belong to NCI? (Less than 1%)


With 1/4 or so of the licensed amateurs belonging to ARRL, it would not be
surprising to if the ARRL were to rank quite high on the list of target
group people actually belonging to the organization.

[snip]
Three-fourths of all U.S. radio amateurs are NOT members.

Think on that, Klunk.

I've thought about it. One quarter of U.S. radio amateurs ARE members.
You are not in either camp.

More than 99% are not NCI members, either.

It would be interesting to compare the ARRL membership percentage to groups
like AARP and NRA

Good point!

I would add this, though:

There are currently about 684,000 individuals with US amateur radio licenses.
Of these, at least 328,000 hold General, Advanced or Extra class amateur
licenses. (I mention this group because they have access to all amateur radio
HF/MF bands and modes, at full power). Novices and "Techs with HF" make up at
least another 100,000, but their privileges only cover two modes and small
parts of four bands.

Not including the five 60 meter channels and the Alaska emergency frequency,
the US amateur bands below 30 MHz amount to 3,750 kHz of spectrum.

So why aren't the bands filled to overflowing with amateur signals 24/7? If
even 1% of those 328,000 are on the HF/MF bands at any given time, that's 3,280
- a litle more than a kHz per ham, from the bottom of 160 to the top of 10.
And that's not counting DX or Novices and Tech-Pluses.

A similar situation exists on VHF/UHF.

The inescapable conclusion is that many of those listed in the database are
either totally inactive or only slightly active.

73 de Jim, N2EY

(Len Over 21) wrote in message ...
In article ,
(Brian) writes:

(Len Over 21) wrote in message
...
In article , Dave Heil

writes:

Three-fourths of all U.S. radio amateurs are NOT members.

Think on that, Klunk.

I've thought about it.

Made your head hurt?

Poor baby.

One quarter of U.S. radio amateurs ARE members.

A MINORITY.

You still don't understand the difference between "minority" and
"majority," do you?

Of this minority, the ARRL polled their little group in the mid-late
nineties, and came away with "no clear mandate." An even spilt within
the ranks of the true believers? So even at the time, something was
wearing away at the propaganda machine. I wonder what's happened
since then?

As I see it the schism is from the general attitude of long-timers
evolving into two main groupings: Those that mightily resist change
and those who can accept change.

The first group wants a relatively inflexible hobby activity, generally
frozen at the standards and practices of the time when they first
became acquainted with amateur radio (usually their first license).
They want the hobby to remain relatively stable, something they
can identify with, something familiar and comforting. They want to
be first among their equals ("primus inter pares"). Such feel secure
only with the old familiar things. They take the fraternal order view
of amateur radio and thus build up a mystique amongst themselves
far greater than reality. Those favor morse code because the
fraternal order elders favored morse code when they were first into
amateur radio.

The second group is accepting of change and they are not afraid of
it (although the constant advancement of all electronics does cause
some irritation). They are more interested in communicating and the
communication arts, are willing to try out new things. They have a
more realistic view of amateur radio as an avocational activity and
don't have it become their lifestyle. They don't mind the "fraternal
order" aspect (some enjoy that) but, at the same time, they are
into trying out new things of many kinds. Their emphasis is on
communicating, not the mode of communication.

The first group appears to have been in control of the League since
the beginnings of that fraternal order as a local club. Such is a
positive-feedback condition which supports the generally conservative-
traditionalist fraternal brotherhood that is heavy into mystique. They
cannot abide the second group because they are resistant to
change. The end result is the schism kept wide by the first group.

The first group is secure and comfortable in familiar surroundings
(and familiar mystique). If something was good for their Daddy and
Grand-Daddy, then by damn it is good for them. Change is
anathema because that is not familiar and makes them insecure.
A side effect of that behavior is the pretense they are still as young
as when they were first licensed long ago...or that they want to be
that young again.

The upper echelons of the League have, by public statements and
Board meetings, indicated that they have a majority of the first
group. Hence the League remained adamant in supporting the
morse code test requirement of S25.5 long after the IARU came out
for revision. The upper echelons did the appeasement bit about a
year prior to WRC-03 by taking the Neutral stand on the code test.

A neutral stand is a nice, easy cop-out in public. It takes no sides
and thus doesn't cause as much controversy as taking one side or
the other. Such is "comfortable." It also creates more mystique
by the pretense that the upper echelons are "considering more
important matters (than the code test)." Since most of the League
membership has already passed a morse code test, it seems (to
the upper ranks) that the code test is "unimportant."

All of the above is understandable...except that change WILL
happen to the upper ranks whether or not they like it. League
membership hasn't been above the one-quarter mark for a long
time and the League NEEDS more members to survive whether
the U.S. amateur radio license totals increase or decrease. League
leadership needs to adapt to new times...denial of reality might be
okay for a few more years but such stalling tactics will only foment
a much larger event in the future.


Now you've got hams kicking around the idea of a two license structure
w/o Morse Code for HF access.

Unthinkable! :-)

"Morse code has always been in ham radio and it always will be!"

"The code test as always been in ham radio licensing and that's
how it must remain!"

"Nobody should be on HF unless they are licensed with a morse
code test!"

Brian, those aren't verbatim quotes but the gist of what they are
have been written by many of the beligerant "first-group" hams.

It should be clear that there will never be any "consensus" on
code testing as long as such beligerance remains rooted among
the self-styled elite morsemen of U.S. amateur radio.

LHA

Darn-it, Len, I wanted Dee to say those things.

I think those endless droplets of water falling and hitting her
between the eyes, while listening to Farnsworth-spaced propoganda from
W1AW will be hard to undo.

"Dee D. Flint" wrote in message igy.com...
"Dave Heil" wrote in message
...
Len Over 21 wrote:
[snip]
Three-fourths of all licensed U.S. radio amateurs "took that view"
and are NOT members.

You have no idea of the views held by those radio amateurs who are or
are not members of the ARRL, Leonard. You aren't a player from within
or without.


And there are simply a lot of people who are not joiners. What percent of
the seniors belong to AARP? What percent of gun owners belong to the NRA.
With 1/4 or so of the licensed amateurs belonging to ARRL, it would not be
surprising to if the ARRL were to rank quite high on the list of target
group people actually belonging to the organization.

Sounds like you have your work cut out for yourself. Do you think you
can gather the data, verify it, analyse it, and report your
conclusions in a week? two weeks? Go ahead and take as long as you
like.

[snip]
Three-fourths of all U.S. radio amateurs are NOT members.

Think on that, Klunk.

I've thought about it. One quarter of U.S. radio amateurs ARE members.
You are not in either camp.

Dave K8MN

It would be interesting to compare the ARRL membership percentage to groups
like AARP and NRA.

I think the average age of the NRA members would be much lower than
the two retirement organizations. ;^)

But I thought that this was an Amateur Radio discussion. ;^0

Dave Heil wrote:
Len Over 21 wrote:

snippage


You are not in either camp.

I'm in our home office right now. Haven't been to "camp" for a while.

Why do you ask?


I asked you nothing. Pay attention.


Is there a morse camp one has to go to in amateur radio?

:-)


Maybe there is a morse camp available. Perhaps it could help with your
morse learning disability. :-) :-)


Well, there is this:

http://www.trefoilnet.net/disp/morse.htm

- Mike KB3EIA -

Dwight Stewart wrote:
"Dave Heil" wrote:

I hope Dwight Stewart is reading this
and makes some mental connections
between your comments above and
what I wrote to him earlier.



I'm following along, Dave. You seem to be giving just as much as you get.
Len is working hard to pull your strings and you're working hard to pull
just as many strings yourself. And the debate (if you want to call it that)
goes on.


Co-dependency? Running for cover now! 8^)

But seriously, you hit on something. These guys really don't mind
bashing each other at all. The anger, name calling, and baiting is just
stress relief, IMO. So I just sit back and enjoy the show. Might even be
a new genre' "Reality Newsgroup"! 8^)

- Mike KB3EIA -

Mike Coslo wrote:

Dave Heil wrote:
Len Over 21 wrote:

snippage

You are not in either camp.

I'm in our home office right now. Haven't been to "camp" for a while.

Why do you ask?


I asked you nothing. Pay attention.


Is there a morse camp one has to go to in amateur radio?

:-)


Maybe there is a morse camp available. Perhaps it could help with your
morse learning disability. :-) :-)

Well, there is this:

http://www.trefoilnet.net/disp/morse.htm

I think you've come up with some valueable aids for overcoming Len's
inertia.

Dave K8MN

Dave Heil wrote:
Len Over 21 wrote:

snippage

You are not in either camp.

I'm in our home office right now. Haven't been to "camp" for a while.

Why do you ask?


I asked you nothing. Pay attention.


Is there a morse camp one has to go to in amateur radio?

:-)


Maybe there is a morse camp available. Perhaps it could help with your
morse learning disability. :-) :-)

Here, Len--I found one for you. Maybe a few of the lads will be able to
provide you some helpful pointers.

http://www.shohola.com/hamradio.html

Dave K8MN