On 23 Jan 2004 14:06:20 -0800, (Steve Robeson, K4CAP)
wrote:

(Len Over 21) wrote in message ...
In article , Leo

Much appreciated!

If you need some links, let me know...preferrably in private...that
way it isn't messed up by the hecklers. :-)

Of course, "in private", Lennie...

What's "surprising" here?

An "anonymous" poster appears to "support" Lennie, and Lennie
"replies" to several of his posts by re-quoting the entie post without
comment.

Uh huh...Proabably first cousing to "MegHz", and "Harvey the
Rabbit", among others.

Lennie's slipping, folks...Let's bid him adieu while he's still
"aware" enough of his surroundings to appreciate it.

Steve, K4YZ

rotflmfao!!

This is definitely a first - somebody flaming somebody because they
missed an opportunity to flame somebody else.

Somebody get the Guinness Book of Records people on the phone -
quick!!

73 es LOL still, Leo

Leo wrote in message . ..

rotflmfao!!

This is definitely a first - somebody flaming somebody because they
missed an opportunity to flame somebody else.

Somebody get the Guinness Book of Records people on the phone -
quick!!

I missed the point where this had anything to do with flaming
anyone, Lennie...I mean Leo...(yeah...right...)

Steve, K4YZ

"Dan Mattingly N0FQN" wrote in message ...
The issue is it was not invented today. So, what's your point??? You could
say this statement about any subject. It's too, broad in texture. Narrow
your point or I won't give you a grade.

That's what I find amusing about these threads.

People want to play "what if" but they aren't describing the situation
where ham radio would be invented today. The way I see it, the real
reason they can imagine amateur radio is because it's been around
all these years. Form follows function. The proponents of this
thread can't really explain why amateur radio would arise today,
without the bias of the past, so really they can't define what
would arise if it did.

CB is a good example of something coming later. "Radio for
everyone" or something like that. Came about around sixty years
after people started playing with radio out of the laboratory.
They could only offer up a small slice of the spectrum, and that
by taking from amateur radio. And while technology did limit
things, realistically the only model was that of amateur radio,
ie direct between two stations. Now admittedly early proponents
of CB often came from amateur radio, but practically as soon
as the service was created, it was referred to in hobby terms.
Not "this is a radio service that you can use to help your hobby"
but a hobby in itself. Look in Popular Electronics from the time,
and you'll see articles by Don Stoner and Tom Kneital to this effect.
(And warnings from the FCC that it ain't a hobby band.) If amateur
radio had not existed, what would CB have been like?

It recently occurred to me that far more people are using radio
for communication than at any point in the past. But instead
of radio, they are seen as telephone technology. Yes, cellphones.
It makes good use of the spectrum, it is something relatively familiar,
and realistically, people are more interested in reliable communication
with those they know.

On one hand, we have people lamenting that amateur radio can't compete
with computers and cellphones today. Yet, then others turn around
and wonder what amateur radio would be like if started today. I can't
really conceive of amateur radio starting today, because I'm not sure what
the purpose would be. And once you start with that premise, free of
knowing that amateur radio has existed all these years, only then can
one begin to imagine what (if anything) would be available to such
a hobby if started today.

I also note that the topic wasn't about "what would the world be
like without amateur radio" but "what would amateur radio be like
if started today". So yes, one can look back and imagine a history
of radio without amateurs, but the two are indeed linked. Take out
that history from amateur radio, and I really don't see it starting
up today.

Michael VE2BVW

"Michael Black" wrote

| Take out that history from amateur radio, and I really
| don't see it starting up today.

You absolutely NAILED it Michael. Amateur radio was started and
sustained until post-WWII by tinkerers, experimenters, and technically
orientated types. That our service continues to exist today is a
miracle, attributable mainly to the efforts of RAC, ARRL, DARC, JARL,
IARU, RAE, RSGB, and all the other national societies who so far have
convinced the regulators to allow us to continue.

The notion of a "start up" amateur radio service or any personal radio
service with such broad gifts of spectrum and freedom to experiment as
we enjoy wouldn't gain any traction at all in todays technological
environment.

73, de Hans, K0HB

Michael Black wrote:
"Dan Mattingly N0FQN" wrote in message ...

The issue is it was not invented today. So, what's your point??? You could
say this statement about any subject. It's too, broad in texture. Narrow
your point or I won't give you a grade.


That's what I find amusing about these threads.

People want to play "what if" but they aren't describing the situation
where ham radio would be invented today. The way I see it, the real
reason they can imagine amateur radio is because it's been around
all these years. Form follows function. The proponents of this
thread can't really explain why amateur radio would arise today,
without the bias of the past, so really they can't define what
would arise if it did.

Go back and read the initial message in the thread and the modifications
in the next couple posts.
If you don't want to play along, DON'T! I gave an inital situation, in
which nothing was given back to amateur radio after WW1 and it died out.
I then added some more qualifications after N2EY asked for them.

snip


I also note that the topic wasn't about "what would the world be
like without amateur radio" but "what would amateur radio be like
if started today". So yes, one can look back and imagine a history
of radio without amateurs, but the two are indeed linked. Take out
that history from amateur radio, and I really don't see it starting
up today.

Umm, yeah. Sorry to bother you with the thread. DLTDHYOTAOTWO!

Other good reasons for not participating in the thread:

Well, amateur radio didn't go away after WW1, so why are we talking
about this?

Well, things wouldn't be like they are now, so how do we know how they
would be?

Well, what if there were no hypothetical situations?

Well, this is all well and good, but what does it have to do with Morse
Code or Kim's callsign?

- Mike KB3EIA -

KØHB wrote:

"Michael Black" wrote

| Take out that history from amateur radio, and I really
| don't see it starting up today.

You absolutely NAILED it Michael. Amateur radio was started and
sustained until post-WWII by tinkerers, experimenters, and technically
orientated types. That our service continues to exist today is a
miracle, attributable mainly to the efforts of RAC, ARRL, DARC, JARL,
IARU, RAE, RSGB, and all the other national societies who so far have
convinced the regulators to allow us to continue.

The notion of a "start up" amateur radio service or any personal radio
service with such broad gifts of spectrum and freedom to experiment as
we enjoy wouldn't gain any traction at all in todays technological
environment.


In one of the first posts, I cam up with the spectrum we would recieve.

Me in an earlier life:

Aww, don't make me define too much Jim! Okay, lets say that in the
rebirth, fueled by concerns for homeland security, that a a loosely
organized group of non-professional communication savvy people that
might be able to respond to disasters or the like is made.

Assume that it is decided that this group should have some technical
abilities, so that if need be, they might stand a chance of getting a
station operational under adverse conditions.

The philosophy is that these people would pursue the service as a
hobby, working for enjoyment while honing operational skills.

Let's say that amateurs are allocated some frequencies. I'll assume
that the bands I not will be similar in width to what we have now:

2 meters
10 meters
20 meters
40 meters - or nearby, away from broadcasting frequencies
80 meters

The various frequencies are chosen to take advantage of propagation
characteristics.

No UHF or above, no 160 meters.

Seems like a reasonable starting point to me.

Obviously things would be different, there would be plenty of
differences, and the idea was that there might be some discussion of that.

So you and Mr Black just say there wouldn't be any such thing. Thanks
for the input! ;^)

- Mike KB3EIA -

On Sun, 25 Jan 2004 18:14:17 -0500, Mike Coslo
wrote:

DLTDHYOTAOTWO

Mike - you've piqued my curiosity - Was ist los?

73, Leo

(Michael Black) wrote in message . com...

"Dan Mattingly N0FQN" wrote in message ...

The issue is it was not invented today. So, what's your point??? You could
say this statement about any subject. It's too, broad in texture. Narrow
your point or I won't give you a grade.

That's what I find amusing about these threads.

People want to play "what if" but they aren't describing the situation
where ham radio would be invented today. The way I see it, the real
reason they can imagine amateur radio is because it's been around
all these years. Form follows function. The proponents of this
thread can't really explain why amateur radio would arise today,
without the bias of the past, so really they can't define what
would arise if it did.

This thread, Michael, was started by a known newsgroup antagonist
who is not, himself, an Amateur Radio licensee...Not even a Novice
Class. His perception of "radio" is strictly from that of a person
looking to make a buck...nothing else.

He often fancies himself the Knowledge Guru since he's very adept
at cut-and-paste.

His favorite technique is to favor you with his presence, but
then when you dare to disagree with him at any level, you are a
"jack-booted thug", an "elitist", a "Nazi", or any number of other
adjectives that he cares to endear Amateurs with. It's especially
worse if you happen to be an Amateur Extra.

CB is a good example of something coming later. "Radio for
everyone" or something like that. Came about around sixty years
after people started playing with radio out of the laboratory.
They could only offer up a small slice of the spectrum, and that
by taking from amateur radio. And while technology did limit
things, realistically the only model was that of amateur radio,
ie direct between two stations. Now admittedly early proponents
of CB often came from amateur radio, but practically as soon
as the service was created, it was referred to in hobby terms.
Not "this is a radio service that you can use to help your hobby"
but a hobby in itself. Look in Popular Electronics from the time,
and you'll see articles by Don Stoner and Tom Kneital to this effect.
(And warnings from the FCC that it ain't a hobby band.) If amateur
radio had not existed, what would CB have been like?

CB's "hobby terms" were created by those who found out that the
FCC's rules against "distance" communications were foolhearty against
Mother Nature. The 11 meter allocation was foolish from the start for
a "low-power, personal, short range" communications service. Amateurs
back then told the FCC that the 11 meter band would enjoy the same
propagation that the 10 meter band did, and low-power/long distance
communications were quite common.

The results were predictable. That the FCC would thrown it's
hands up and NOT police that which it had created was not.

It recently occurred to me that far more people are using radio
for communication than at any point in the past. But instead
of radio, they are seen as telephone technology. Yes, cellphones.
It makes good use of the spectrum, it is something relatively familiar,
and realistically, people are more interested in reliable communication
with those they know.

It is only as reliable as the infrastructure that supports it.
No cell tower, no cellphone. An adept hacker could interrupt the
cellphone net. A well-funded group of terrorists or other malcontents
could create a lot of damage without a single bullet or carbomb.

On one hand, we have people lamenting that amateur radio can't compete
with computers and cellphones today. Yet, then others turn around
and wonder what amateur radio would be like if started today. I can't
really conceive of amateur radio starting today, because I'm not sure what
the purpose would be. And once you start with that premise, free of
knowing that amateur radio has existed all these years, only then can
one begin to imagine what (if anything) would be available to such
a hobby if started today.

Amateur Radio's present allocations exist, for the most part, as
a legacy of Amateur Radio's history, but is sustained today based upon
it's ability to consistently meet the "basis and purpose" of it's
enabling regulations (at least in the United States), part of which is
public service and emergency communications...Again, a point of fact
that the originator of this thread insists on ignoring or trying to
dismiss as "regulatory language" drafted for the sole purpose of
satisfying some bureaucrat's need to be verbose.

I also note that the topic wasn't about "what would the world be
like without amateur radio" but "what would amateur radio be like
if started today". So yes, one can look back and imagine a history
of radio without amateurs, but the two are indeed linked. Take out
that history from amateur radio, and I really don't see it starting
up today.

Take Amateurs out of the history of radio altogether and radio
today would be a different place. Can you imagine a "radio" today
that was solely base upon commercial influence and control?

73

Steve, K4YZ

Leo wrote:
On Sun, 25 Jan 2004 18:14:17 -0500, Mike Coslo
wrote:


DLTDHYOTAOTWO


Mike - you've piqued my curiosity - Was ist los?

Don't Let The Door Hit You On The Way Out (a little paraphrased, you'll
get the other OTA in the middle, I think! 8^)


- Mike KB3EIA -

"Steve Robeson, K4CAP" wrote

|
| This thread, Michael, was started by a known newsgroup antagonist
| who is not, himself, an Amateur Radio licensee...Not even a Novice
| Class. His perception of "radio" is strictly from that of a person
| looking to make a buck...nothing else.
|

Mike Coslo isn't a ham? What's this "KB3EIA" business he puts in his
signature then?

73, de Hans, K0HB