"N2EY" wrote in message
...
In article t, "Bill
Sohl"
writes:

[snip]

If all 83,000 Advanceds get a free upgrade to Extra, they'll have
access
to
those choice slices and they'll probably increase the QRM level. So
giving
them
a free upgrade *does* take something away from existing Extras.

Jim,

I'm willing to share the Extra sub-bands with a few others.

Be careful ... your "not in my sandbox" motives are showing.

Like all those Advanced are on the air now. Give me a break.

If they're not on the air, there's no reason to give them upgrades,
is there?

They'll get upgrades, even if they're SKs whose family hasn't
sent in their license for cancellation - so what?

83,000 advanced today who are either SK, inactive or just
don't see the need to upgrade and you expect even a measurable
increase in QRM because some of them may suddenly start
operating in the Extra only segments.

Then just leave 'em be!

That would require essentially maintaining the status quo, which
is unacceptable.

The FCC wants to simplify - the ARRL wants to create a viable
entry level class with meaningful HF privs and reasonable power
limits.

After careful consideration of Ed Hare's (personal, not ARRL)
comments on the subject on eHam.net, I (personally, not as NCI)
think it makes the best sense as a one-shot deal as a way forward
to a license/priv structure that makes sense for the future.

YM will, of course V ...

73,
Carl - wk3c

In article , "Carl R. Stevenson"
writes:

"N2EY" wrote in message
...
In article t, "Bill
Sohl"
writes:

[snip]

If all 83,000 Advanceds get a free upgrade to Extra, they'll have
access
to
those choice slices and they'll probably increase the QRM level. So
giving
them
a free upgrade *does* take something away from existing Extras.

Jim,

I'm willing to share the Extra sub-bands with a few others.

Only a few? I'm willing to share them with as many as can pass the
required tests. Particularly the *written* tests.

Be careful ... your "not in my sandbox" motives are showing.

You're the one willing to share with "a few"....

And I do recall someone saying they'd **NEVER** support a reduction
in the **WRITTEN** test requirements. Yet now I see that same person
supporting free upgrades that involve not even having to take *written*
tests...

Like all those Advanced are on the air now. Give me a break.

If they're not on the air, there's no reason to give them upgrades,
is there?

They'll get upgrades, even if they're SKs whose family hasn't
sent in their license for cancellation - so what?

Why not upgrade all existing hams except Novices to Extra, then?

83,000 advanced today who are either SK, inactive or just
don't see the need to upgrade and you expect even a measurable
increase in QRM because some of them may suddenly start
operating in the Extra only segments.

Then just leave 'em be!

That would require essentially maintaining the status quo, which
is unacceptable.

Why?

The FCC wants to simplify -

Says who?

I recall that FCC **REJECTED** the ARRL proposal to free-upgrade Tech Pluses
and Novices to General back in 1998-99. And even though ARRL proposed keeping
the Advanced open, FCC rejected that too.

In fact it was *FCC's* idea to keep the Novice and Advanced as closed-off
license classes, rather than handing out free upgrades.

What has changed in the four years since then that now requires handing out
over 82,000 free passes to Extra, and over 322,000 free passes to General?

the ARRL wants to create a viable
entry level class with meaningful HF privs and reasonable power limits.

And that part is a good idea! In fact, it's almost identical to what I proposed
here more than 2 years ago. Except I'd require 5 wpm code...

But that doesn't explain the need for over 400,000 free upgrades.

Of course if the Novice is reopened with new HF privs, Tech Pluses should get
those same privs. And if the code test isn't required for "NewNovices", then
Techs should get those same HF privs.

After careful consideration of Ed Hare's (personal, not ARRL)
comments on the subject on eHam.net

I'll ask again for a link to those comments.

I (personally, not as NCI)
think it makes the best sense as a one-shot deal as a way forward
to a license/priv structure that makes sense for the future.

Even though it means a one-shot reduction in written test requirements
for over 400,000 hams. That's almost 60% of those licensed today.

Here's another thought: Rules changes like that don't happen overnight -
there's always a time delay between when a rules change is announced and the
new rules take effect. So if FCC simply accepted ARRL's proposal tomorrow,
they'd probably make it effective a few months hence.

So someone without a license could just take the Tech before the changes take
place, and then ride the free upgrade bus to General.

I'd really like to see a link to Ed's arguments...

Or maybe someone can repost them here...

73 de Jim, N2EY

N2EY wrote:

In article , "Carl R. Stevenson"
writes:


"N2EY" wrote in message
...

In article t, "Bill

Sohl"

writes:


[snip]


If all 83,000 Advanceds get a free upgrade to Extra, they'll have

access

to

those choice slices and they'll probably increase the QRM level. So

giving

them

a free upgrade *does* take something away from existing Extras.

Jim,

I'm willing to share the Extra sub-bands with a few others.


Only a few? I'm willing to share them with as many as can pass the
required tests. Particularly the *written* tests.

Be careful ... your "not in my sandbox" motives are showing.


You're the one willing to share with "a few"....

And I do recall someone saying they'd **NEVER** support a reduction
in the **WRITTEN** test requirements. Yet now I see that same person
supporting free upgrades that involve not even having to take *written*
tests...

Technically he's right Jim. He isn't supporting any reduction in the
writtens. He's supporting not having to take a test *at all*. There is a
difference, you know!


Like all those Advanced are on the air now. Give me a break.


If they're not on the air, there's no reason to give them upgrades,
is there?

They'll get upgrades, even if they're SKs whose family hasn't
sent in their license for cancellation - so what?


Why not upgrade all existing hams except Novices to Extra, then?

83,000 advanced today who are either SK, inactive or just
don't see the need to upgrade and you expect even a measurable
increase in QRM because some of them may suddenly start
operating in the Extra only segments.

Then just leave 'em be!

That would require essentially maintaining the status quo, which
is unacceptable.


Why?

The FCC wants to simplify -


Says who?

I recall that FCC **REJECTED** the ARRL proposal to free-upgrade Tech Pluses
and Novices to General back in 1998-99. And even though ARRL proposed keeping
the Advanced open, FCC rejected that too.

In fact it was *FCC's* idea to keep the Novice and Advanced as closed-off
license classes, rather than handing out free upgrades.

What has changed in the four years since then that now requires handing out
over 82,000 free passes to Extra, and over 322,000 free passes to General?


the ARRL wants to create a viable
entry level class with meaningful HF privs and reasonable power limits.


And that part is a good idea! In fact, it's almost identical to what I proposed
here more than 2 years ago. Except I'd require 5 wpm code...

But that doesn't explain the need for over 400,000 free upgrades.

Of course if the Novice is reopened with new HF privs, Tech Pluses should get
those same privs. And if the code test isn't required for "NewNovices", then
Techs should get those same HF privs.

After careful consideration of Ed Hare's (personal, not ARRL)
comments on the subject on eHam.net


I'll ask again for a link to those comments.


I think that when you scratch the surface of most people that support
reductions in the Morse code testing, you will find that they also
support reduction or elimination of the rest of the testing regimen.
There are exceptions, but they prove the rule IMO.


I (personally, not as NCI)
think it makes the best sense as a one-shot deal as a way forward
to a license/priv structure that makes sense for the future.


Even though it means a one-shot reduction in written test requirements
for over 400,000 hams. That's almost 60% of those licensed today.

By golly, that's a lot more high level hams!

Here's another thought: Rules changes like that don't happen overnight -
there's always a time delay between when a rules change is announced and the
new rules take effect. So if FCC simply accepted ARRL's proposal tomorrow,
they'd probably make it effective a few months hence.

So someone without a license could just take the Tech before the changes take
place, and then ride the free upgrade bus to General.

Yup!

I'd really like to see a link to Ed's arguments...

Me too! I want to see if he can convince me of something I'd said I'd
never support!

- Mike KB3EIA -

In article , Mike Coslo
writes:

N2EY wrote:

In article , "Carl R. Stevenson"
writes:


"N2EY" wrote in message
...

In article t, "Bill

Sohl"

writes:


[snip]


If all 83,000 Advanceds get a free upgrade to Extra, they'll have

access

to

those choice slices and they'll probably increase the QRM level. So

giving

them

a free upgrade *does* take something away from existing Extras.

Jim,

I'm willing to share the Extra sub-bands with a few others.


Only a few? I'm willing to share them with as many as can pass the
required tests. Particularly the *written* tests.

Be careful ... your "not in my sandbox" motives are showing.


You're the one willing to share with "a few"....

And I do recall someone saying they'd **NEVER** support a reduction
in the **WRITTEN** test requirements. Yet now I see that same person
supporting free upgrades that involve not even having to take *written*
tests...

Technically he's right Jim. He isn't supporting any reduction in the
writtens. He's supporting not having to take a test *at all*. There is a
difference, you know!

No there isn't.

Eliminating something is the same as reducing it to zero. The free upgrades
simply reduce the testing required for the upgrade to zero. Still a reduction.

Like all those Advanced are on the air now. Give me a break.

If they're not on the air, there's no reason to give them upgrades,
is there?

They'll get upgrades, even if they're SKs whose family hasn't
sent in their license for cancellation - so what?

Why not upgrade all existing hams except Novices to Extra, then?

83,000 advanced today who are either SK, inactive or just
don't see the need to upgrade and you expect even a measurable
increase in QRM because some of them may suddenly start
operating in the Extra only segments.

Then just leave 'em be!

That would require essentially maintaining the status quo, which
is unacceptable.

Why?

The FCC wants to simplify -

Says who?

I recall that FCC **REJECTED** the ARRL proposal to free-upgrade Tech
Pluses
and Novices to General back in 1998-99. And even though ARRL proposed
keeping
the Advanced open, FCC rejected that too.

In fact it was *FCC's* idea to keep the Novice and Advanced as closed-off
license classes, rather than handing out free upgrades.

What has changed in the four years since then that now requires handing out
over 82,000 free passes to Extra, and over 322,000 free passes to General?


the ARRL wants to create a viable
entry level class with meaningful HF privs and reasonable power limits.


And that part is a good idea! In fact, it's almost identical to what I
proposed
here more than 2 years ago. Except I'd require 5 wpm code...

But that doesn't explain the need for over 400,000 free upgrades.

Of course if the Novice is reopened with new HF privs, Tech Pluses should
get
those same privs. And if the code test isn't required for "NewNovices",
then
Techs should get those same HF privs.

After careful consideration of Ed Hare's (personal, not ARRL)
comments on the subject on eHam.net


I'll ask again for a link to those comments.

Please?


I think that when you scratch the surface of most people that support
reductions in the Morse code testing, you will find that they also
support reduction or elimination of the rest of the testing regimen.
There are exceptions, but they prove the rule IMO.

I disagree! I think many if not most anticodetest folks just want the code test
to go away. Frankly, I'm surprised that Carl has changed his tune so
completely.

I (personally, not as NCI)
think it makes the best sense as a one-shot deal as a way forward
to a license/priv structure that makes sense for the future.

Even though it means a one-shot reduction in written test requirements
for over 400,000 hams. That's almost 60% of those licensed today.

By golly, that's a lot more high level hams!

Bingo.

Here's another thought: Rules changes like that don't happen overnight -
there's always a time delay between when a rules change is announced and
the
new rules take effect. So if FCC simply accepted ARRL's proposal tomorrow,
they'd probably make it effective a few months hence.

So someone without a license could just take the Tech before the changes
take
place, and then ride the free upgrade bus to General.

Yup!

I'd really like to see a link to Ed's arguments...

Me too! I want to see if he can convince me of something I'd said I'd
never support!

I can see some possibilities:

- Free upgrading Techs would mean a lot more hams with HF, which is a big
arguing point against BPL

- Possible recruiting tool for ARRL ("look what we got you!")

- Less work for VECs (NCVEC is always complaining - see their comments.)

- (the big one): The ARRL proposal dumps Element 1 for all but Extra.
Supporting it gets Carl and NCI most of what they want in the codetest area.
And maybe the FCC will dump Element 1 for Extra too....

I'd really like to see the link. Looked around eham but can't find the comments
mentioned.

73 de Jim, N2EY

N2EY wrote:

In article , Mike Coslo
writes:


N2EY wrote:


In article , "Carl R. Stevenson"
writes:



"N2EY" wrote in message
...


In article t, "Bill

Sohl"


writes:


[snip]



If all 83,000 Advanceds get a free upgrade to Extra, they'll have

access


to


those choice slices and they'll probably increase the QRM level. So

giving


them


a free upgrade *does* take something away from existing Extras.

Jim,

I'm willing to share the Extra sub-bands with a few others.


Only a few? I'm willing to share them with as many as can pass the
required tests. Particularly the *written* tests.


Be careful ... your "not in my sandbox" motives are showing.


You're the one willing to share with "a few"....

And I do recall someone saying they'd **NEVER** support a reduction
in the **WRITTEN** test requirements. Yet now I see that same person
supporting free upgrades that involve not even having to take *written*
tests...

Technically he's right Jim. He isn't supporting any reduction in the
writtens. He's supporting not having to take a test *at all*. There is a
difference, you know!


No there isn't.

Eliminating something is the same as reducing it to zero. The free upgrades
simply reduce the testing required for the upgrade to zero. Still a reduction.

I would have though by now you would have known that such a statement
from me was very tongue in cheek, Jim!



Like all those Advanced are on the air now. Give me a break.

If they're not on the air, there's no reason to give them upgrades,
is there?

They'll get upgrades, even if they're SKs whose family hasn't
sent in their license for cancellation - so what?

Why not upgrade all existing hams except Novices to Extra, then?


83,000 advanced today who are either SK, inactive or just
don't see the need to upgrade and you expect even a measurable
increase in QRM because some of them may suddenly start
operating in the Extra only segments.

Then just leave 'em be!

That would require essentially maintaining the status quo, which
is unacceptable.

Why?


The FCC wants to simplify -

Says who?

I recall that FCC **REJECTED** the ARRL proposal to free-upgrade Tech

Pluses

and Novices to General back in 1998-99. And even though ARRL proposed

keeping

the Advanced open, FCC rejected that too.

In fact it was *FCC's* idea to keep the Novice and Advanced as closed-off
license classes, rather than handing out free upgrades.

What has changed in the four years since then that now requires handing out
over 82,000 free passes to Extra, and over 322,000 free passes to General?



the ARRL wants to create a viable
entry level class with meaningful HF privs and reasonable power limits.


And that part is a good idea! In fact, it's almost identical to what I

proposed

here more than 2 years ago. Except I'd require 5 wpm code...

But that doesn't explain the need for over 400,000 free upgrades.

Of course if the Novice is reopened with new HF privs, Tech Pluses should

get

those same privs. And if the code test isn't required for "NewNovices",

then

Techs should get those same HF privs.


After careful consideration of Ed Hare's (personal, not ARRL)
comments on the subject on eHam.net


I'll ask again for a link to those comments.


Please?


I think that when you scratch the surface of most people that support
reductions in the Morse code testing, you will find that they also
support reduction or elimination of the rest of the testing regimen.
There are exceptions, but they prove the rule IMO.


I disagree! I think many if not most anticodetest folks just want the code test
to go away. Frankly, I'm surprised that Carl has changed his tune so
completely.

Could be I'm not hanging out with the right no-coders, Jim. The ones I
know, with one or two exceptions, seem to be at least acqueiscing of the
ARRL plan. I think you would agree that their givaway plan fits the bill.



I (personally, not as NCI)
think it makes the best sense as a one-shot deal as a way forward
to a license/priv structure that makes sense for the future.

Even though it means a one-shot reduction in written test requirements
for over 400,000 hams. That's almost 60% of those licensed today.

By golly, that's a lot more high level hams!


Bingo.

Here's another thought: Rules changes like that don't happen overnight -
there's always a time delay between when a rules change is announced and

the

new rules take effect. So if FCC simply accepted ARRL's proposal tomorrow,
they'd probably make it effective a few months hence.

So someone without a license could just take the Tech before the changes

take

place, and then ride the free upgrade bus to General.

Yup!


I'd really like to see a link to Ed's arguments...

Me too! I want to see if he can convince me of something I'd said I'd
never support!


I can see some possibilities:

- Free upgrading Techs would mean a lot more hams with HF, which is a big
arguing point against BPL

If I were arguing *for* BPL, I would denounce that little trick as a
transparent ploy. I think it is bad form to do something that gives the
opposition a foot in the door.

- Possible recruiting tool for ARRL ("look what we got you!")

Then what will they do for an encore?

- Less work for VECs (NCVEC is always complaining - see their comments.)

NO tests at all would lessen their workload.

- (the big one): The ARRL proposal dumps Element 1 for all but Extra.
Supporting it gets Carl and NCI most of what they want in the codetest area.
And maybe the FCC will dump Element 1 for Extra too....



I'd really like to see the link. Looked around eham but can't find the comments
mentioned.

Yeah, I've been looking too.

- Mike KB3EIA -

"N2EY" wrote in message
...
In article , "Carl R. Stevenson"
writes:

"N2EY" wrote in message
...
In article t, "Bill
Sohl"
writes:

[snip]

If all 83,000 Advanceds get a free upgrade to Extra, they'll have
access
to
those choice slices and they'll probably increase the QRM level. So
giving
them
a free upgrade *does* take something away from existing Extras.

Jim,

I'm willing to share the Extra sub-bands with a few others.

Only a few? I'm willing to share them with as many as can pass the
required tests. Particularly the *written* tests.

Be careful ... your "not in my sandbox" motives are showing.

You're the one willing to share with "a few"....

You're squirming pretty hard and stretching pretty far with your attempt
to twist my use of the words "a few others" into something you know
damned well I didn't mean the way you're trying to spin it ...

And I do recall someone saying they'd **NEVER** support a reduction
in the **WRITTEN** test requirements.

I'm not ... I'm supporting the establishment of a reasonable, viable
entry level class with appropriate testing and restrictions.

Yet now I see that same person
supporting free upgrades that involve not even having to take *written*
tests...

As Ed pointed out, the difference between the Tech and General written
tests is not that large - it's a one-shot deal to "make things right" in a
way
where nobody loses privs, and as Bill pointed out, those Techs are already
authorized 1500W at frequencies that the FCC and anyone with any knowledge
of RF safety knows are more "risky" than HF.

Like all those Advanced are on the air now. Give me a break.

If they're not on the air, there's no reason to give them upgrades,
is there?

They'll get upgrades, even if they're SKs whose family hasn't
sent in their license for cancellation - so what?

Why not upgrade all existing hams except Novices to Extra, then?

Because that doesn't comport with either the FCC's or the ARRL's
(or my) desire to have some reason for folks to learn more to upgrade.

[snip]

After careful consideration of Ed Hare's (personal, not ARRL)
comments on the subject on eHam.net

I'll ask again for a link to those comments.

Go to eham.net (or use Google) ... I don't have the URL direct
to Ed's comments handy ...


I (personally, not as NCI)
think it makes the best sense as a one-shot deal as a way forward
to a license/priv structure that makes sense for the future.

Even though it means a one-shot reduction in written test requirements
for over 400,000 hams. That's almost 60% of those licensed today.

Again, the differences are not that great (in content - I know you have
a BIG hangup about the number of questions on the test ...)

Here's another thought: Rules changes like that don't happen overnight -
there's always a time delay between when a rules change is announced and
the
new rules take effect. So if FCC simply accepted ARRL's proposal tomorrow,
they'd probably make it effective a few months hence.

They could make a rules change effective 30 days from publication in the
Federal Register ...

So someone without a license could just take the Tech before the changes
take
place, and then ride the free upgrade bus to General.

Give me a break ... your arguments are just plain lame and your "someone
might
get privs without taking a test with the same number of questions as I took"
is
REALLY showing.

I'd really like to see a link to Ed's arguments...

Go find them - you know how to google.

36-1/2 :-)
Carl - wk3c

On Tue, 10 Feb 2004 02:58:14 -0000, "Carl R. Stevenson"
wrote:

snip

.... twist my use of the words "a few others" into something you know
damned well I didn't mean the way you're trying to spin it ...

Hmmm - I think I've had that done to a few of my posts a time or two
as well!

The best defense is still a good offense, I guess......

snip
36-1/2 :-)
Carl - wk3c

73, Leo

In article , "Carl R. Stevenson"
writes:

"N2EY" wrote in message
...
In article , "Carl R. Stevenson"
writes:

"N2EY" wrote in message
...
In article t, "Bill
Sohl"
writes:

[snip]

If all 83,000 Advanceds get a free upgrade to Extra, they'll have
access
to
those choice slices and they'll probably increase the QRM level. So
giving
them
a free upgrade *does* take something away from existing Extras.

Jim,

I'm willing to share the Extra sub-bands with a few others.

Only a few? I'm willing to share them with as many as can pass the
required tests. Particularly the *written* tests.

Be careful ... your "not in my sandbox" motives are showing.

You're the one willing to share with "a few"....

You're squirming pretty hard and stretching pretty far with your attempt
to twist my use of the words "a few others" into something you know

[expletive deleted]

well I didn't mean the way you're trying to spin it ...

I'm not squirming or stretching, Carl. Just pointing out some facts. And I
don't
know what you intended to mean - I just know what you actually wrote. Frankly,
I was very surprised that you support free upgrades without *written* testing
for over 400,000 US hams

And I do recall someone saying they'd **NEVER** support a reduction
in the **WRITTEN** test requirements.

I'm not ...

Let's get this clear right now.

ARRL proposes that all current Techs and Tech Pluses get a free upgrade to
General with no additional testing.

They also propose that all current Advanceds get a free upgrade to Extra
with no additional testing.

Do you support those free upgrades or not?

If you support them, then by definition you are supoorting a reduction in
the written test requirements for those licenses.

Now you might argue that it's only a temporary or one-time reduction, but it's
still a reduction. And since it affects over 400,000 hams, it's not a small
matter.

I'm supporting the establishment of a reasonable, viable
entry level class with appropriate testing and restrictions.

That's a completely different issue. And I support the "NewNovice" concept as
well. In fact I proposed it here more than two years ago.

Yet now I see that same person
supporting free upgrades that involve not even having to take *written*
tests...

As Ed pointed out, the difference between the Tech and General written
tests is not that large - it's a one-shot deal to "make things right" in a
way
where nobody loses privs, and as Bill pointed out, those Techs are already
authorized 1500W at frequencies that the FCC and anyone with any knowledge
of RF safety knows are more "risky" than HF.

Then why should *anyone* have to take the General test? If the Tech written is
adequate for General HF privs for some, why not for all? Why not simply dump
the General question pools into the Extra, and use the current Tech pool for
General?

Like all those Advanced are on the air now. Give me a break.

If they're not on the air, there's no reason to give them upgrades,
is there?

They'll get upgrades, even if they're SKs whose family hasn't
sent in their license for cancellation - so what?

Why not upgrade all existing hams except Novices to Extra, then?

Because that doesn't comport with either the FCC's or the ARRL's
(or my) desire to have some reason for folks to learn more to upgrade.

How do you know what FCC wants?

[snip]

After careful consideration of Ed Hare's (personal, not ARRL)
comments on the subject on eHam.net

I'll ask again for a link to those comments.

Go to eham.net (or use Google) ..

I did. No luck.

I don't have the URL direct to Ed's comments handy ...

So there's a wonderful set of arguments out there, but you can't/won't
point us to them.....That's not how you sell something, Carl.

I (personally, not as NCI)
think it makes the best sense as a one-shot deal as a way forward
to a license/priv structure that makes sense for the future.

Even though it means a one-shot reduction in written test requirements
for over 400,000 hams. That's almost 60% of those licensed today.

Again, the differences are not that great (in content - I know you have
a BIG hangup about the number of questions on the test ...)

I don;t have any hangups about the tests. I'm all for them.

If the difference isn't so great, why require the General test at all?

Here's another thought: Rules changes like that don't happen overnight -
there's always a time delay between when a rules change is announced and
the
new rules take effect. So if FCC simply accepted ARRL's proposal tomorrow,
they'd probably make it effective a few months hence.

They could make a rules change effective 30 days from publication in the
Federal Register ...

Sure - but they don't. Look at the 2000 restructuring - announced in late
December 1999, made effective April 15, 2000. More than 3-1/2 months
- over 100 days - of prep time.

So someone without a license could just take the Tech before the changes
take
place, and then ride the free upgrade bus to General.

Give me a break ...

What do you mean? That's exactly what a lot of people will do.

Those with no license or an existing Novice will have an incentive
to get a Tech before the rules change and ride the free upgrade
bus to General. Those with Tech will have a *disincentive* to
actually take (or study for) the General. Same for Advanceds
and the Extra.

your arguments are just plain lame

How? Do you think people won't do this?

and your "someone might
get privs without taking a test with the same number of questions as I took"
is REALLY showing.

Nobody today can even take the tests I took. You couldn't pass the tests I
took,
Carl.

The tests I took are not the issue. Free upgrades and reduction in written test
requirements are the issue.

I'd really like to see a link to Ed's arguments...

Go find them - you know how to google.

I'll look again but it's quite telling that you are being very unhelpful when
asked for assistance

73 de Jim, N2EY

"N2EY" wrote in message
...
In article , "Carl R. Stevenson"
writes:

"N2EY" wrote in message
...
In article , "Carl R. Stevenson"
writes:

"N2EY" wrote in message
...
In article t,
"Bill
Sohl"
writes:

[snip]

If all 83,000 Advanceds get a free upgrade to Extra, they'll have
access
to
those choice slices and they'll probably increase the QRM level.
So
giving
them
a free upgrade *does* take something away from existing Extras.

Jim,

I'm willing to share the Extra sub-bands with a few others.

Only a few? I'm willing to share them with as many as can pass the
required tests. Particularly the *written* tests.

Be careful ... your "not in my sandbox" motives are showing.

You're the one willing to share with "a few"....

You're squirming pretty hard and stretching pretty far with your attempt
to twist my use of the words "a few others" into something you know

[expletive deleted]

well I didn't mean the way you're trying to spin it ...

I'm not squirming or stretching, Carl. Just pointing out some facts. And I
don't
know what you intended to mean - I just know what you actually wrote.
Frankly,
I was very surprised that you support free upgrades without *written*
testing
for over 400,000 US hams

And I do recall someone saying they'd **NEVER** support a reduction
in the **WRITTEN** test requirements.

I'm not ...

Let's get this clear right now.

ARRL proposes that all current Techs and Tech Pluses get a free upgrade to
General with no additional testing.

They also propose that all current Advanceds get a free upgrade to Extra
with no additional testing.

Do you support those free upgrades or not?

I (K2UNK) do...on this "one time" basis.

If you support them, then by definition you are supoorting a reduction in
the written test requirements for those licenses.

Incomplete statement. Supporting a one-time upgrade doesn't
mean anyone supports "permanent" reductions of the written
requirements. THAT is the critical difference.

Now you might argue that it's only a temporary or one-time reduction, but
it's
still a reduction.

It is a ONE time reduction. You and I can disagree about the reason's
to do it, but my support or anyone else's support of the one
time upgrade does NOT mean I or anyone else supports
permanent reductions in requirements.

And since it affects over 400,000 hams, it's not a small matter.

If it goes through it will be forgotten in a couple of years. Why, because
no one losses any privileges.

Yet now I see that same person
supporting free upgrades that involve not even having to take *written*
tests...

As Ed pointed out, the difference between the Tech and General written
tests is not that large - it's a one-shot deal to "make things right" in
a
way
where nobody loses privs, and as Bill pointed out, those Techs are
already
authorized 1500W at frequencies that the FCC and anyone with any
knowledge
of RF safety knows are more "risky" than HF.

Then why should *anyone* have to take the General test? If the Tech
written is
adequate for General HF privs for some, why not for all? Why not simply
dump
the General question pools into the Extra, and use the current Tech pool
for
General?

If that's what YOU want, then file comments supporting that yourself.
Bottom line, 2 years from now no one will care.

Like all those Advanced are on the air now. Give me a break.

If they're not on the air, there's no reason to give them upgrades,
is there?

They'll get upgrades, even if they're SKs whose family hasn't
sent in their license for cancellation - so what?

I'd expect the FCC will NOT reissue anyone that gets a free upgrade
a new license at all. There's no need to.

Why not upgrade all existing hams except Novices to Extra, then?

Because that doesn't comport with either the FCC's or the ARRL's
(or my) desire to have some reason for folks to learn more to upgrade.

How do you know what FCC wants?

How do you? Ultimately the FCC will decide.

I (personally, not as NCI)
think it makes the best sense as a one-shot deal as a way forward
to a license/priv structure that makes sense for the future.

Even though it means a one-shot reduction in written test requirements
for over 400,000 hams. That's almost 60% of those licensed today.

Again, the differences are not that great (in content - I know you have
a BIG hangup about the number of questions on the test ...)

I don;t have any hangups about the tests. I'm all for them.

If the difference isn't so great, why require the General test at all?

If YOU accept that, then file comments as such with the FCC.

So someone without a license could just take the Tech before the
changes
take
place, and then ride the free upgrade bus to General.

Give me a break ...

What do you mean? That's exactly what a lot of people will do.

Those with no license or an existing Novice will have an incentive
to get a Tech before the rules change and ride the free upgrade
bus to General.

If "lots" of non-hams suddenly became hams by that process I'll
be truly surprised. As for the existing novices...that is now
down to about 30,000...assuming everyone of them did what you
suggest.

Those with Tech will have a *disincentive* to
actually take (or study for) the General.

Life's a bitch and then we die.

Same for Advanceds and the Extra.

The arte at which advaceds have been upgrading is pathetically
low already.

your arguments are just plain lame

How? Do you think people won't do this?

Some will, but it won't be significant.

and your "someone might
get privs without taking a test with the same number of questions as I
took"
is REALLY showing.

Nobody today can even take the tests I took. You couldn't pass the tests I
took,
Carl.

Translation, I did it, so should everyone else.

The tests I took are not the issue. Free upgrades and reduction in written
test
requirements are the issue.

The issue is ONE time free upgrades only. No effort is being made to
lower the General or Extra requirements.

Cheers...and add Hong Kong to the list of countries dropping ALL code tests.

Bill K2UNK

Bill Sohl wrote:
"N2EY" wrote in message

Do you support those free upgrades or not?


I (K2UNK) do...on this "one time" basis.

Uh huh!


I'll ask:


Are those who get the so called "one time" upgrade qualified?


If you support them, then by definition you are supoorting a reduction in
the written test requirements for those licenses.


Incomplete statement. Supporting a one-time upgrade doesn't
mean anyone supports "permanent" reductions of the written
requirements. THAT is the critical difference.

Give me a break, Bill!

Are the people getting the "one time upgrade" qualified?



Now you might argue that it's only a temporary or one-time reduction, but

it's

still a reduction.


It is a ONE time reduction. You and I can disagree about the reason's
to do it, but my support or anyone else's support of the one
time upgrade does NOT mean I or anyone else supports
permanent reductions in requirements.


Are the people qualified?

And since it affects over 400,000 hams, it's not a small matter.


If it goes through it will be forgotten in a couple of years. Why, because
no one losses any privileges.

Are they qualified?


A few things here.

IF the people getting the free upgrade are qualified then there is *no
reason to increase the requirements ever again*. If you support that you
are just as supportive of a hazing requirement (over-testing) as the
evil Morse code supporters.

If they are not qualified, then you are not only sending them upward
and onward without the proper qualifications, you are doing them a great
disservice.

Quite frankly, I believe that You, Carl, and Mr. W5YI do *indeed*
support permanent changes in the written requirement access to HF. I
refuse to believe that you are all that naive to think that we'll just
do this once and no one will notice that suddenly the requirements will
go up.

I remember promises of never accepting reduction in test requirements.
I remember the explicit distancing of personal opinions from NCI. But
here you all are, supporting reductions in the requirements for access
to HF. A pattern forms.