That was apparent when the "begging for dollars" started
with the BPL issue. Not to mention the silliness of the
"Diamond Club".


Yea I got that Trash also, threw in the Trash where it belongs.

(N2EY) wrote in message ...
In article ,
(Brian Kelly) writes:

order" crappola. Call 'em "Tech IIs", call 'em anything which doesn't
infer that a 30 year Novice is just a newbie getting his feet wet in
ham radio.

Asinine.

Yep, that's what arguing over the name really is.

As long as they don't tag you as a "Novice"eh? . . the word outta HQ
is that they're gonna change it anyway so we'll see what they come up
with.


All Advanced (currently about 82,000) would get a free pass to

Extra.

Another very bad idea.

WHY??

Because if they want the privs, let 'em take the tests.

Heck, any Advanced who wants an Extra need only take Element 4.
Is it *really* that hard? Heck, the old Extra was earned by an 8 year old
in 3rd grade. Obviously a bright kid, but c'mon - how hard can the test
really be?

Has nothing to do with it. The point of the propsal is to simplify the
license structure, the testing process and the record keeping. There
are little to no differences in the levels of difficulty between the
Extra and Advanced writtens and they both cover the same general
material in the same depth. Both have passed at least 5 wpm code
tests. All of which has clearly rendered the Advanced redundant today
so it should be done away with if we expect any significant
streamlining of the regs. If it takes a one-shot giveaway to clean up
the mess fine, do it.


It's obvious, at least to me, that one major bottom line intent of the
proposal is to foster more activity on the HF phone bands.

Why? Do they need it?

Who is "they"?

Why not foster activity on *all* bands and modes?

The new entry-level ticket should do a good job of just that. Give 'em
a taste of HF phone beyond just 10M and the activity level ought to go
up. Particularly since we're on the downside of the spots count curve.
The other bands and modes will take care of themselves. The
restrictions on the entry-level ticket provide realistic incentives to
upgrade. I like it.


Besides, the problem ain't the license. Plenty of folks with the license but
no station set up. I mean, look how complicated and difficult it can be
for some folks to put up an end-fed wire...

Yeah, the tests can't filter out the Brainiacs but that's not a
regulatory issue.


If the
proposal is adopted I expect that objective might be met so I support
the basics of the proposal.

What parts don't you support?

I'm not convinced that leaving 20M completely out of the picture is a
good idea. They shoved the "Novices" pretty far up the phone bands
which will severly limit their opportunities to get into contests
and/or chase DX. And I'm a bit cool to the concept of expanding the
phone bands down into the old Novice bands.


James I fail miserably to understand why you're so adamantly opposed
to the free passes.

Because there's no reason for 'em. Is giving all Advanceds a few more kHz on
80/40/20/15 going to get many more of them on the air? I don't think so.

Again that's not the point. The overriding point is getting rid of the
Advanced class license, has nothing to do with activity levels. The
only "losers" would be the entrenched Extras who would suddenly have
to share their exclusive spaces with the dayum low-born new "givaway"
Extras. Pore babies. .


The problem is that the freebies say that there's nothing essential about the
General and Extra writtens.

That's just plain BS. Let 'em eat cake.

And it's unfair to those who come after
GiveAwayDay.

Yeah, yeah, and we had to walk uphill both ways in a blizzard to take
our 20wpm code tests. And now they're giving 'em away for a lousy 5
wpm. "That ain't fair!" Pfft.

Those who miss "giveaway day" will be faced with some specific much
more rational regime or another just like those who came before them
have faced all sorts of different regimes over the years. And they'll
deal with it as usual. So pfft on them too.


Nope. Not if ya expect HF newbies to even try CW. If newbies don't try
it we might as well drive a stake in the mode now and get the pain over
with.

You misunderstand. 20 per would be for Extra only, not for all classes.

20 wpm worked when the steps to get there were 5, 13 then 20w wpm.
Going from zip directly to 20 would be another whole story and I
expect the results would be dismal. Not to mention the waivers
problem. I would really go for changing the 5 wpm code test to at
least one minute solid copy or take it again.

IAM THE ARRL!!!

So am I.

I wasn't for a few days again and beat 'em out of another free book
for rejoining.

I remember..

That was last year. I just done it again.


Of course, the fact that ARRL put those ideas in a proposal may be the kiss of
death for
them.

Heh.

They haven't had much success in license restructuring proposalsin the
past few years!

They gotta keep thowing stuff at the wall or none of it will stick.


73 de Jim, N2EY

w3rv

In article ,
(Brian Kelly) writes:

They gotta keep thowing stuff at the wall or none of it will stick.

But...the floor is THICK with it now...can hardly walk around.

:-)

LHA / WMD

In article ,
(Brian Kelly) writes:

(N2EY) wrote in message
...
In article ,

(Brian Kelly) writes:

order" crappola. Call 'em "Tech IIs", call 'em anything which doesn't
infer that a 30 year Novice is just a newbie getting his feet wet in
ham radio.

Asinine.

Yep, that's what arguing over the name really is.

As long as they don't tag you as a "Novice"eh? . . the word outta HQ
is that they're gonna change it anyway so we'll see what they come up
with.

Basic/Limited/Full
C/B/A

Tyros/Middles/Knowitalls

whatever.

All Advanced (currently about 82,000) would get a free pass to

Extra.

Another very bad idea.

WHY??

Because if they want the privs, let 'em take the tests.

Heck, any Advanced who wants an Extra need only take Element 4.
Is it *really* that hard? Heck, the old Extra was earned by an 8 year old
in 3rd grade. Obviously a bright kid, but c'mon - how hard can the test
really be?

Has nothing to do with it. The point of the propsal is to simplify the
license structure, the testing process and the record keeping.

The structure for new hams is already simplified - Tech/General/Extra.

The testing process is already simplified - Tech/General/Extra.

The record keeping is trivial - one field in the database. N/T/P/G/A/E

It's a needless pushup to combine the classes.

There
are little to no differences in the levels of difficulty between the
Extra and Advanced writtens and they both cover the same general
material in the same depth.

Then any Advanced who wants an Extra should have no trouble passing the test.

Both have passed at least 5 wpm code
tests. All of which has clearly rendered the Advanced redundant today
so it should be done away with if we expect any significant
streamlining of the regs.

Coupla lines in the regs say what an Advanced can do and what element credits
an Advanced gets. Your streamlining would eliminate maybe two paragraphs.

If it takes a one-shot giveaway to clean up
the mess fine, do it.

How about free Generals for all Techs?

It's obvious, at least to me, that one major bottom line intent of the
proposal is to foster more activity on the HF phone bands.

Why? Do they need it?

Who is "they"?

The 'phone bands. Are they empty?

Why not foster activity on *all* bands and modes?

The new entry-level ticket should do a good job of just that. Give 'em
a taste of HF phone beyond just 10M and the activity level ought to go
up.

Better yet, give 'em a taste of more modes and bands.

Particularly since we're on the downside of the spots count curve.
The other bands and modes will take care of themselves. The
restrictions on the entry-level ticket provide realistic incentives to
upgrade. I like it.

Me too, but I say give 'em good slices of 160 thru 10, including 20 and WARC,
not just the same old 80/40/15/10. In fact I see no reason not to give 'em all
of WARC and most if not all of 160.

Besides, the problem ain't the license. Plenty of folks with the license
but
no station set up. I mean, look how complicated and difficult it can be
for some folks to put up an end-fed wire...

Yeah, the tests can't filter out the Brainiacs but that's not a
regulatory issue.

'zactly.

If the
proposal is adopted I expect that objective might be met so I support
the basics of the proposal.

What parts don't you support?

I'm not convinced that leaving 20M completely out of the picture is a
good idea.

See above. Good slices of all bands, I say.

They shoved the "Novices" pretty far up the phone bands
which will severly limit their opportunities to get into contests
and/or chase DX. And I'm a bit cool to the concept of expanding the
phone bands down into the old Novice bands.

Ugh.

James I fail miserably to understand why you're so adamantly opposed
to the free passes.

Because there's no reason for 'em. Is giving all Advanceds a few more kHz
on
80/40/20/15 going to get many more of them on the air? I don't think so.

Again that's not the point. The overriding point is getting rid of the
Advanced class license, has nothing to do with activity levels. The
only "losers" would be the entrenched Extras who would suddenly have
to share their exclusive spaces with the dayum low-born new "givaway"
Extras. Pore babies. .

And how about Techs?


The problem is that the freebies say that there's nothing essential about
the
General and Extra writtens.

That's just plain BS. Let 'em eat cake.

Uh huh.

And it's unfair to those who come after
GiveAwayDay.

Yeah, yeah, and we had to walk uphill both ways in a blizzard to take
our 20wpm code tests. And now they're giving 'em away for a lousy 5
wpm. "That ain't fair!" Pfft.

Those who miss "giveaway day" will be faced with some specific much
more rational regime or another just like those who came before them
have faced all sorts of different regimes over the years. And they'll
deal with it as usual. So pfft on them too.

And 40 years later they'll still be moaning about it.

Nope. Not if ya expect HF newbies to even try CW. If newbies don't try
it we might as well drive a stake in the mode now and get the pain over
with.

You misunderstand. 20 per would be for Extra only, not for all classes.

20 wpm worked when the steps to get there were 5, 13 then 20w wpm.
Going from zip directly to 20 would be another whole story and I
expect the results would be dismal. Not to mention the waivers
problem. I would really go for changing the 5 wpm code test to at
least one minute solid copy or take it again.

They elimninated the mutiple guess.

IAM THE ARRL!!!

So am I.

I wasn't for a few days again and beat 'em out of another free book
for rejoining.

I remember..

That was last year. I just done it again.


Of course, the fact that ARRL put those ideas in a proposal may be the kiss
of
death for
them.

Heh.

They haven't had much success in license restructuring proposalsin the
past few years!

They gotta keep thowing stuff at the wall or none of it will stick.

Then they should throw sticky stuff.

73 de Jim, N2EY

(N2EY) wrote in message ...
In article ,
(Brian Kelly) writes:

Has nothing to do with it. The point of the propsal is to simplify the
license structure, the testing process and the record keeping.

The structure for new hams is already simplified - Tech/General/Extra.

The testing process is already simplified - Tech/General/Extra.

You must not have been listening when I told you that the Technician
license was far too complex to be an entry level license. Maybe I
haven't wasted 17 years of ARRL dues after all.

The record keeping is trivial - one field in the database. N/T/P/G/A/E

Needless complexity. Ah, thats right, you wanted more license
classes.

It's a needless pushup to combine the classes.

There need not be classes, but a learners permit would be nice.

"William" wrote in message
om...
(N2EY) wrote in message
...
In article ,

(Brian Kelly) writes:

Has nothing to do with it. The point of the propsal is to simplify the
license structure, the testing process and the record keeping.

The structure for new hams is already simplified - Tech/General/Extra.

The testing process is already simplified - Tech/General/Extra.

You must not have been listening when I told you that the Technician
license was far too complex to be an entry level license. Maybe I
haven't wasted 17 years of ARRL dues after all.


I disagree, the information required to receive a Tech license is not too
complex. I've taught classes and have seen people pass that were "dumber
than a box of rocks" as they say. Of course, maybe I'm the world's greatest
teacher but that's unlikely. Naturally I teach with enthusiasm and take the
time to explain whatever needs further development. And I do explain why
they need to know this and discuss real world applications from my own
experience so that they can see the usefulness of this knowledge. However
if the material were too complex, more of these people would have failed.
The few who failed admitted right up front that they had not studied the
material.

Dee D. Flint, N8UZE

Dee D. Flint wrote:

"William" wrote in message
om...

(N2EY) wrote in message

...

In article ,



(Brian Kelly) writes:

Has nothing to do with it. The point of the propsal is to simplify the
license structure, the testing process and the record keeping.

The structure for new hams is already simplified - Tech/General/Extra.

The testing process is already simplified - Tech/General/Extra.

You must not have been listening when I told you that the Technician
license was far too complex to be an entry level license. Maybe I
haven't wasted 17 years of ARRL dues after all.



I disagree, the information required to receive a Tech license is not too
complex. I've taught classes and have seen people pass that were "dumber
than a box of rocks" as they say. Of course, maybe I'm the world's greatest
teacher but that's unlikely. Naturally I teach with enthusiasm and take the
time to explain whatever needs further development. And I do explain why
they need to know this and discuss real world applications from my own
experience so that they can see the usefulness of this knowledge. However
if the material were too complex, more of these people would have failed.
The few who failed admitted right up front that they had not studied the
material.

Seems like the Technician license is just about the right level of
difficulty. In my area about 80 percent seem to pass it the first time
around.

- Mike KB3EIA -

"Dee D. Flint" wrote in message igy.com...
"William" wrote in message
om...
(N2EY) wrote in message
...
In article ,

(Brian Kelly) writes:

Has nothing to do with it. The point of the propsal is to simplify the
license structure, the testing process and the record keeping.

The structure for new hams is already simplified - Tech/General/Extra.

The testing process is already simplified - Tech/General/Extra.

You must not have been listening when I told you that the Technician
license was far too complex to be an entry level license. Maybe I
haven't wasted 17 years of ARRL dues after all.


I disagree,

Oh, no! It would appear then that you have your very first
disagreement with the ARRL. They are the ones proposing a new entry
level license.

the information required to receive a Tech license is not too
complex. I've taught classes and have seen people pass that were "dumber
than a box of rocks" as they say. Of course, maybe I'm the world's greatest
teacher but that's unlikely. Naturally I teach with enthusiasm and take the
time to explain whatever needs further development. And I do explain why
they need to know this and discuss real world applications from my own
experience so that they can see the usefulness of this knowledge. However
if the material were too complex, more of these people would have failed.
The few who failed admitted right up front that they had not studied the
material.

Dee D. Flint, N8UZE

You always have the right answers, Dee, and you're always right.

Why does anyone else even bother?

"N2EY" wrote in message
...
In article ,

(Brian Kelly) writes:

(N2EY) wrote in message
...
In article ,

(Brian Kelly) writes:

order" crappola. Call 'em "Tech IIs", call 'em anything which doesn't
infer that a 30 year Novice is just a newbie getting his feet wet in
ham radio.

Asinine.

Yep, that's what arguing over the name really is.

As long as they don't tag you as a "Novice"eh? . . the word outta HQ
is that they're gonna change it anyway so we'll see what they come up
with.

Basic/Limited/Full
C/B/A

Tyros/Middles/Knowitalls

whatever.

All Advanced (currently about 82,000) would get a free pass to

Extra.

Another very bad idea.

WHY??

Because if they want the privs, let 'em take the tests.

Heck, any Advanced who wants an Extra need only take Element 4.
Is it *really* that hard? Heck, the old Extra was earned by an 8 year
old
in 3rd grade. Obviously a bright kid, but c'mon - how hard can the test
really be?

Has nothing to do with it. The point of the propsal is to simplify the
license structure, the testing process and the record keeping.

The structure for new hams is already simplified - Tech/General/Extra.

So changing to Novice, General, Extra shouldn't be a big deal
for the FCC.

The testing process is already simplified - Tech/General/Extra.

Ditto my last.

The record keeping is trivial - one field in the database. N/T/P/G/A/E

It's not just record keeping, it is also maintaining a dual
set of rules and regulations that apply to those
"grandfathered" licennses such as Novice and Advanced today...
or are you suggesting they lose their unique privileges (i.e.
be effectively downgraded)?

It's a needless pushup to combine the classes.

In your opinion.

There
are little to no differences in the levels of difficulty between the
Extra and Advanced writtens and they both cover the same general
material in the same depth.

Then any Advanced who wants an Extra should have no trouble passing the
test.

Both have passed at least 5 wpm code
tests. All of which has clearly rendered the Advanced redundant today
so it should be done away with if we expect any significant
streamlining of the regs.

Coupla lines in the regs say what an Advanced can do and what element
credits
an Advanced gets. Your streamlining would eliminate maybe two paragraphs.

The other side or rules is enforcement. That is likly the more important
issue to the FCC (IMHO).

If it takes a one-shot giveaway to clean up
the mess fine, do it.

How about free Generals for all Techs?

That is what ARRL is proposing.

(SNIP)

Cheers,
Bill K2UNK

In article ,
(William) writes:

You always have the right answers, Dee, and you're always right.

Why does anyone else even bother?

It's better than being a homicide suspect! :-)

LHA / WMD