In article ,
(Brian Kelly) writes:

(Expeditionradio) wrote in message
...
An updated version of the entire article "A Bandwidth-Based Frequency
Plan", is
no available on the web at:

http://www.qsl.net/kq6xa/freqplan/

Please refer to the new updated color chart of the frequency plan.

Did that. For one your "30M bandplan" would require both ITU and FCC
approval to implement. Good luck with that one Bonnie.

And that's just the beginning.

It equitably distributes the space within the allocated band so that
approximately the same number of narrowband 500Hz signals vs wider
bandwidth signals can share the precious spectrum resources.

IOW the 'phone bands are drastically widened and the CW/digital bands
drastically narrowed. Also, the incentives to upgrade are reduced, the
spectrum available for modes wider than SSB is reduced.

Keep in mind that the plan is mode-neutral.

No, it isn't.

If you can use technology to shoehorn a voice into 500Hz,
then
you can transmit it anywhere in the band. You may laugh, but my experience
working with commercial DSP digital modulation systems proves to me that it
can happen in Amateur Radio.

Of course it can. But will it? If the 'phone bands are as drastically widened
as
proposed, why should anyone bother with 500 Hz processed voice when they
have so much room for regular SSB?

In our present mode-based system in USA, we have a lot of nearly-dormant
band segments.

On HF? Where are they?

When the number of HF operators doubles overnight,

*IF* the FCC buys into anything like the recent ARRL proposal AND
drops anything vaguely resembling that proposal on Hamdom USA MAYBE
the number of individuals licensed to actually get on HF MIGHT double.
All of which is pure conjecture right there and is a real stretch at
best.

More like wildly optimistic.

We currently have about 324,000 US hams with General, Advanced or Extra class
licenses. Also at least 130,000 with Novice, TechPlus and "Tech-with-HF"
licenses. If even a small percentage of them were on HF at any one time, the
bands would be full to busting.

What is not conjecture is the fact that there is no statistical
evidence which indicates that simply having a license to operate HF
somehow equates to those with any new "giveaway" HF ticket actually
putting together HF stations and getting 'em on the air on a 1:1 new
license privs/band occupancy ratio.

BINGO!

And that's not going to change much.

Quite the opposite is being demonstrated in fact. We already have tons
of experience with, for example, the recent huge increase in the
number of Extra Class licensees which fell out of the reduction in the
code test speed for Extras.

And the reduction in written testing for Extra.

I tune the Extra 75/40/20M phone setasides today and the recently
enfranchised don't seem to be there. In volume. If anything the
overall activity level in those setasides is noticeably down from what
it was long before the code test speed was dropped.

Don't forget sunspots.

we will no longer
have the luxury to waste spectrum as we have in the past.

When was spectrum ever "wasted"? Is that why AM is so restricted in
this plan?

The problem with HF ham radio, if there really is a problem, has
nothing to do with whimsical "bandplans" like yours, "we need space .
. sombody might eventually do some 10Khz wide digital voice modes" or
any of the rest of it. The dead spectrum problem has far more to do
with getting the HF-enabled of all flavors off the Internet, off their
dead butts, geting the radios, actually putting the HF antennas up and
getting on the air than it does with any "bandwidth-based frequency
plan" sorts of things.

HEAR HEAR

And *THAT'S* where the problem really is! Fiddling with licenses is
only going to have a minor effect on that, if any. License changes
aren't going to fix anybody's CC&Rs, or suddenly improve the
sunspot number, or empower vast numbers of existing hams to
figure out how to end feed a wire and actually get on the air.


73 de Jim, N2EY

(Steve Robeson, K4CAP) wrote in message om...


The Novice Class license should be just for that...Novices. When
one has gained experience and confidence in what they are doing, it's
time to move up. Then they will have more than adequate spectrum in
which to "communicate".

And many of them will be perfectly content to remain Novices
"forever".

Your bandplan only addresses HF. Ninety-nine percent of
"emergency communications" takes place above 50mHz.

Amen. What little HF emergency-related ham comms actually do take
place are not emergency comms, they're post-disaster H&W comms.

Nice try, Bonnie. You're thinking, and that's good, but the
ultimate result was all you did was expand the phone bands on HF where
very little "experimentation" is going on anyway.

There's virtually NO new-mode experimentation going on anywhere in any
ham bands. We have high bands where all sorts of "multimedia" wideband
ops are already quite legal. But all we hear is the talk, the walk
simply isn't happening. Why would it be any different on the HF
bands??

The concept of reshuffling the whole deck to "promote experimentation"
has been around for eons, it's a cyclic refrain which pops up every
few years and here's the current iteration.

The problem with "new modes" has nothing to do with the regs,
allowable bandwidths or any of the rest of the usual micro-managed
"grand plans". It's a MARKETING problem, pure and simple.

73

Steve Robeson, K4YZ

w3rv

(N2EY) wrote in message ...
In article ,
(Brian Kelly) writes:


Please refer to the new updated color chart of the frequency plan.

Did that. For one your "30M bandplan" would require both ITU and FCC
approval to implement. Good luck with that one Bonnie.

And that's just the beginning.

Right: I haven't rummaged thru it in real depth and I don't intend to
but I'll just betcha there are more similar instances of conflicts
with the ITU regs.

If you can use technology to shoehorn a voice into 500Hz,
then
you can transmit it anywhere in the band. You may laugh, but my experience
working with commercial DSP digital modulation systems proves to me that it
can happen in Amateur Radio.

I poked around, she's apparently big on "pack radio", using digital
military HF "tactical" gear is one piece of it. She doesn't seem to
understand the collections of "differences" . . ?

Of course it can. But will it? If the 'phone bands are as
drastically widened
as
proposed, why should anyone bother with 500 Hz processed voice
when they
have so much room for regular SSB?

Is it even possible to compress digitized voice down to 500Hz?
Violation of Shannon's Law?

In our present mode-based system in USA, we have a lot of nearly-dormant
band segments.

On HF? Where are they?

There really are a bunch of underutilized spaces in the 160, 80, 15 &
10M bands James. "Spectrum banks for future expansions . . "

What is not conjecture is the fact that there is no statistical
evidence which indicates that simply having a license to operate HF
somehow equates to those with any new "giveaway" HF ticket actually
putting together HF stations and getting 'em on the air on a 1:1 new
license privs/band occupancy ratio.

BINGO!

And that's not going to change much.

If anything the ratio will get worse. I've seen too many examples of
new-wave 5wpm ex-Tech Extras who have yet to make the first move
toward putting an HF station on the air to believe otherwise. I'm not
at all convinced that expanded HF privs is all that much of an
incentive to upgrade these days vs. earlier days. Prolly has more to
do today with the incentive to acquire bragging rights vs. anything to
do with actually operating.

Quite the opposite is being demonstrated in fact. We already have tons
of experience with, for example, the recent huge increase in the
number of Extra Class licensees which fell out of the reduction in the
code test speed for Extras.

And the reduction in written testing for Extra.

It's all one disgusting big dumbed-down bag of worms.

I tune the Extra 75/40/20M phone setasides today and the recently
enfranchised don't seem to be there. In volume. If anything the
overall activity level in those setasides is noticeably down from what
it was long before the code test speed was dropped.

Don't forget sunspots.

I'm talking about the much longer term thru the highs and the lows. In
years gone by there was always chatter in the Extra phone setasides,
not with just sunspot-affected dx, but with."locals". After the last
FD I decided to dredge up a ragchew in the 20 phone setaside before I
tore down. Usta be no sweat. I had to tune around for ten minutes
until w3bv came on the air and we yakked for 45 minutes via ground
path.. Mid day, the spots were middling and the dx was there. The only
w's in the space were a small group of 8s & 9s and Alan (keeper of the
k3jh pole) and I. All of us were old 1 x 2s. Message there.

. . The dead spectrum problem has far more to do
with getting the HF-enabled of all flavors off the Internet, off their
dead butts, geting the radios, actually putting the HF antennas up and
getting on the air than it does with any "bandwidth-based frequency
plan" sorts of things.

HEAR HEAR

And *THAT'S* where the problem really is! Fiddling with licenses is
only going to have a minor effect on that, if any. License changes
aren't going to fix anybody's CC&Rs, or suddenly improve the
sunspot number, or empower vast numbers of existing hams to
figure out how to end feed a wire and actually get on the air.

Perfect example of the results of dumbing-down.

Bonnie also dumped her Master Plan into QRZ.com. Bad move. Those guys
make us RRAPers look like wilted lilly nice guys in comparison. Check
it out.

I notice that she hasn't gone back at anybody with a single rebuttal.
Whatta weenie SHE is.

"Glory hound shoots self in foot."

73 de Jim, N2EY

w3rv

(N2EY) wrote in message ...
In article ,
(Brian Kelly) writes:


Please refer to the new updated color chart of the frequency plan.

Did that. For one your "30M bandplan" would require both ITU and FCC
approval to implement. Good luck with that one Bonnie.

And that's just the beginning.

Right: I haven't rummaged thru it in real depth and I don't intend to
but I'll just betcha there are more similar instances of conflicts
with the ITU regs.

If you can use technology to shoehorn a voice into 500Hz,
then
you can transmit it anywhere in the band. You may laugh, but my experience
working with commercial DSP digital modulation systems proves to me that it
can happen in Amateur Radio.

I poked around, she's apparently big on "pack radio", using digital
military HF "tactical" gear is one piece of it. She doesn't seem to
understand the collections of "differences" . . ?

Of course it can. But will it? If the 'phone bands are as
drastically widened
as
proposed, why should anyone bother with 500 Hz processed voice
when they
have so much room for regular SSB?

Is it even possible to compress digitized voice down to 500Hz?
Violation of Shannon's Law?

In our present mode-based system in USA, we have a lot of nearly-dormant
band segments.

On HF? Where are they?

There really are a bunch of underutilized spaces in the 160, 80, 15 &
10M bands James. "Spectrum banks for future expansions . . "

What is not conjecture is the fact that there is no statistical
evidence which indicates that simply having a license to operate HF
somehow equates to those with any new "giveaway" HF ticket actually
putting together HF stations and getting 'em on the air on a 1:1 new
license privs/band occupancy ratio.

BINGO!

And that's not going to change much.

If anything the ratio will get worse. I've seen too many examples of
new-wave 5wpm ex-Tech Extras who have yet to make the first move
toward putting an HF station on the air to believe otherwise. I'm not
at all convinced that expanded HF privs is all that much of an
incentive to upgrade these days vs. earlier days. Prolly has more to
do today with the incentive to acquire bragging rights vs. anything to
do with actually operating.

Quite the opposite is being demonstrated in fact. We already have tons
of experience with, for example, the recent huge increase in the
number of Extra Class licensees which fell out of the reduction in the
code test speed for Extras.

And the reduction in written testing for Extra.

It's all one disgusting big dumbed-down bag of worms.

I tune the Extra 75/40/20M phone setasides today and the recently
enfranchised don't seem to be there. In volume. If anything the
overall activity level in those setasides is noticeably down from what
it was long before the code test speed was dropped.

Don't forget sunspots.

I'm talking about the much longer term thru the highs and the lows. In
years gone by there was always chatter in the Extra phone setasides,
not with just sunspot-affected dx, but with."locals". After the last
FD I decided to dredge up a ragchew in the 20 phone setaside before I
tore down. Usta be no sweat. I had to tune around for ten minutes
until w3bv came on the air and we yakked for 45 minutes via ground
path.. Mid day, the spots were middling and the dx was there. The only
w's in the space were a small group of 8s & 9s and Alan (keeper of the
k3jh pole) and I. All of us were old 1 x 2s. Message there.

. . The dead spectrum problem has far more to do
with getting the HF-enabled of all flavors off the Internet, off their
dead butts, geting the radios, actually putting the HF antennas up and
getting on the air than it does with any "bandwidth-based frequency
plan" sorts of things.

HEAR HEAR

And *THAT'S* where the problem really is! Fiddling with licenses is
only going to have a minor effect on that, if any. License changes
aren't going to fix anybody's CC&Rs, or suddenly improve the
sunspot number, or empower vast numbers of existing hams to
figure out how to end feed a wire and actually get on the air.

Perfect example of the results of dumbing-down.

Bonnie also dumped her Master Plan into QRZ.com. Bad move. Those guys
make us RRAPers look like wilted lilly nice guys in comparison. Check
it out.

I notice that she hasn't gone back at anybody with a single rebuttal.
Whatta weenie SHE is.

"Glory hound shoots self in foot."

73 de Jim, N2EY

w3rv

(Brian Kelly) wrote in message om...

There's virtually NO new-mode experimentation going on anywhere in any
ham bands. We have high bands where all sorts of "multimedia" wideband
ops are already quite legal. But all we hear is the talk, the walk
simply isn't happening. Why would it be any different on the HF
bands??

Usually this mantra pops up by some of the no code faction who
has tried to promote the idea that "experimenters" in new mode
technologies would somehow come out of the woodwork IF there was
no code test to keep them off of 20M phone.

Go figure!

The problem with "new modes" has nothing to do with the regs,
allowable bandwidths or any of the rest of the usual micro-managed
"grand plans". It's a MARKETING problem, pure and simple.

You go dude!

So...where ya been...?!?!

73

Steve, K4YZ

(Steve Robeson, K4CAP) wrote in message . com...
(Brian Kelly) wrote in message om...

There's virtually NO new-mode experimentation going on anywhere in any
ham bands. We have high bands where all sorts of "multimedia" wideband
ops are already quite legal. But all we hear is the talk, the walk
simply isn't happening. Why would it be any different on the HF
bands??

Usually this mantra pops up by some of the no code faction who
has tried to promote the idea that "experimenters" in new mode
technologies would somehow come out of the woodwork IF there was
no code test to keep them off of 20M phone.

Go figure!

It's been something like twelve years since the first of the piles of
nocodes hit the bands 30Mhz. Mayber it's happened and I missed it but
I have yet to see or hear of a single example of a nocode
experimenting with a new wide mode. For that matter none of the Extra
"wideband digigeeks"who have bleated the same refrain have done
anything but talk either.

Worn out transparent old smokescreen, all of it.

The problem with "new modes" has nothing to do with the regs,
allowable bandwidths or any of the rest of the usual micro-managed
"grand plans". It's a MARKETING problem, pure and simple.

You go dude!

I ain't buying no dayum Yugo!

So...where ya been...?!?!

Keeping a lower profile. I've run a bit short of patience with this
funny farm.

73

Steve, K4YZ

Brian w3rv

In article ,
(Brian Kelly) writes:

(Steve Robeson, K4CAP) wrote in message
.com...
(Brian Kelly) wrote in message
. com...

There's virtually NO new-mode experimentation going on anywhere in any
ham bands. We have high bands where all sorts of "multimedia" wideband
ops are already quite legal. But all we hear is the talk, the walk
simply isn't happening. Why would it be any different on the HF
bands??

Usually this mantra pops up by some of the no code faction who
has tried to promote the idea that "experimenters" in new mode
technologies would somehow come out of the woodwork IF there was
no code test to keep them off of 20M phone.

Go figure!

It's been something like twelve years since the first of the piles of
nocodes hit the bands 30Mhz. Mayber it's happened and I missed it but
I have yet to see or hear of a single example of a nocode
experimenting with a new wide mode. For that matter none of the Extra
"wideband digigeeks"who have bleated the same refrain have done
anything but talk either.

Is PSK31 chopped liver? :-)

Maybe you don't recognize Peter Martinez, G3PLX?

He was experimenting with polyphase shifting networks for SSB
back in 1973.

Worn out transparent old smokescreen, all of it.

Smoking isn't good for you. You ought to quit.

The problem with "new modes" has nothing to do with the regs,
allowable bandwidths or any of the rest of the usual micro-managed
"grand plans". It's a MARKETING problem, pure and simple.

You go dude!

I ain't buying no dayum Yugo!

Yugos have built-in ham transceivers?

The automotive forums are way over to the right on the first floor.
Go there. You can't miss it.

So...where ya been...?!?!

Keeping a lower profile. I've run a bit short of patience with this
funny farm.

Awwww. You mean there's no more Tales of the South Pacific
and your shooting bears from a carrier?

No steam left in your catapult? We are all desolate...

LHA / WMD

(Len Over 21) wrote in
:

In article ,
(Brian Kelly) writes:

(Steve Robeson, K4CAP) wrote in message
e.com...
(Brian Kelly) wrote in message
om...

There's virtually NO new-mode experimentation going on anywhere in
any ham bands. We have high bands where all sorts of "multimedia"
wideband ops are already quite legal. But all we hear is the talk,
the walk simply isn't happening. Why would it be any different on
the HF bands??

Usually this mantra pops up by some of the no code faction who
has tried to promote the idea that "experimenters" in new mode
technologies would somehow come out of the woodwork IF there was
no code test to keep them off of 20M phone.

Go figure!

It's been something like twelve years since the first of the piles of
nocodes hit the bands 30Mhz. Mayber it's happened and I missed it but
I have yet to see or hear of a single example of a nocode
experimenting with a new wide mode. For that matter none of the Extra
"wideband digigeeks"who have bleated the same refrain have done
anything but talk either.

Is PSK31 chopped liver? :-)

Maybe you don't recognize Peter Martinez, G3PLX?

He was experimenting with polyphase shifting networks for SSB
back in 1973.


The original research paper on that particular topic was actually published
in 1945. I have a copy of it somewhere...

Worn out transparent old smokescreen, all of it.

Smoking isn't good for you. You ought to quit.

The problem with "new modes" has nothing to do with the regs,
allowable bandwidths or any of the rest of the usual micro-managed
"grand plans". It's a MARKETING problem, pure and simple.

You go dude!

I ain't buying no dayum Yugo!

Yugos have built-in ham transceivers?

The automotive forums are way over to the right on the first floor.
Go there. You can't miss it.

So...where ya been...?!?!

Keeping a lower profile. I've run a bit short of patience with this
funny farm.

Awwww. You mean there's no more Tales of the South Pacific
and your shooting bears from a carrier?

No steam left in your catapult? We are all desolate...

LHA / WMD

In article , Alun
writes:

(Len Over 21) wrote in
:

In article ,
(Brian Kelly) writes:

(Steve Robeson, K4CAP) wrote in message
le.com...
(Brian Kelly) wrote in message
om...

There's virtually NO new-mode experimentation going on anywhere in
any ham bands. We have high bands where all sorts of "multimedia"
wideband ops are already quite legal. But all we hear is the talk,
the walk simply isn't happening. Why would it be any different on
the HF bands??

Usually this mantra pops up by some of the no code faction who
has tried to promote the idea that "experimenters" in new mode
technologies would somehow come out of the woodwork IF there was
no code test to keep them off of 20M phone.

Go figure!

It's been something like twelve years since the first of the piles of
nocodes hit the bands 30Mhz. Mayber it's happened and I missed it but
I have yet to see or hear of a single example of a nocode
experimenting with a new wide mode. For that matter none of the Extra
"wideband digigeeks"who have bleated the same refrain have done
anything but talk either.

Is PSK31 chopped liver? :-)

Maybe you don't recognize Peter Martinez, G3PLX?

He was experimenting with polyphase shifting networks for SSB
back in 1973.

The original research paper on that particular topic was actually published
in 1945. I have a copy of it somewhere...

No doubt something was done back then. A former RAF boffin
named Clarke would have his geosychronous 3-satellite comm
proposal published in Wireless World a couple years later. I was
fortunate to read an original W.W. issue with that article. Right now
ALL of the geosynchronous orbit positions are taken... :-)

Mike Gingell did his PhD thesis on the polyphase network (the four-
phase version, not to be confused with other "polyphase" networks) in
the UK. I have a copy of that courtesy of a UK amateur.

Several picked up on that thesis in the UK and Martinez' version
was printed in Radio Communication magazine some time in 1973.
My boss at RCA (Jim Hall, KD6JG) showed me that and it looked
fascinating. I snitched some corporate computer time and
analyzed it in LECAP, the RCA frequency-domain version of
ECAP. I sent the results to Pat Hawker whose column ran the
polyphase stuff and that was published in 1974 in Radio
Communication.

Jim Hall is one of the "third-method" SSB innovators and his paper
done at RCA remains as a footnote mention in the "Collins SSB
book" although the authors got the third-method system
descriptions mixed up.

Several in Yurp have used the Gingell values with success for SSB,
including direct-conversion versions. One of Dan Tayloe's QRP
receivers (D-C) uses that. A Japanese amateur surnamed Yoshida
refined the values for even less quadrature phase error and that was
published in QEX. The Gingell-Yoshida value set is most forgiving
of component tolerances yet providing excellent very low error
quadrature phasing across the audio voice band.

Mike Gingell moved the USA and got a U.S. amateur license, was
living in an eastern state and was interested in satellite reception
according to his personal website.

It's now 31 years later and most U.S. amateurs are ignorant of the
Gingell circuit or haven't looked into it...most preferring to operate
their ready-built, designed-by-commercial-engineers equipment.

The (Gingell) polyphase circuit has also been the subject of papers
in the IEEE Transactions on Communications in the late 1970s and
1980s for applications other than SSB.

The basic PLL circuit was first described in 1932 (!) by France's
H. de Bellescize but it doesn't bear a lot of resemblance to the
modern PLLs using specialty ICs such as an MC145151. :-)

All things are as they were then except for some profound changes.

LHA / WMD

(Len Over 21) wrote in message ...
In article ,
(Brian Kelly) writes:

(Steve Robeson, K4CAP) wrote in message
.com...
(Brian Kelly) wrote in message
om...

There's virtually NO new-mode experimentation going on anywhere in any
ham bands. We have high bands where all sorts of "multimedia" wideband
ops are already quite legal. But all we hear is the talk, the walk
simply isn't happening. Why would it be any different on the HF
bands??

Usually this mantra pops up by some of the no code faction who
has tried to promote the idea that "experimenters" in new mode
technologies would somehow come out of the woodwork IF there was
no code test to keep them off of 20M phone.

Go figure!

It's been something like twelve years since the first of the piles of
nocodes hit the bands 30Mhz. Mayber it's happened and I missed it but
I have yet to see or hear of a single example of a nocode
experimenting with a new wide mode. For that matter none of the Extra
"wideband digigeeks"who have bleated the same refrain have done
anything but talk either.

Is PSK31 chopped liver? :-)

When did a 31 Hz wide mode become "wideband"?

Maybe you don't recognize Peter Martinez, G3PLX?

I musta missed this one too, when did the FCC start passing out Extras
to Brits??

He was experimenting with polyphase shifting networks for SSB
back in 1973.

(a) When did bench-futzing SSB transmitter circuitry have anything to
do with putting a wideband signal on the air?

(b) When did SSB become "wideband"?

(c) You might note that phasing schemes for generating ssb signals
have about as much applicability to ham radio today as you have ever
had.


Worn out transparent old smokescreen, all of it.

Smoking isn't good for you. You ought to quit.

The problem with "new modes" has nothing to do with the regs,
allowable bandwidths or any of the rest of the usual micro-managed
"grand plans". It's a MARKETING problem, pure and simple.

You go dude!

I ain't buying no dayum Yugo!

Yugos have built-in ham transceivers?

The automotive forums are way over to the right on the first floor.
Go there. You can't miss it.

So...where ya been...?!?!

Keeping a lower profile. I've run a bit short of patience with this
funny farm.

Awwww. You mean there's no more Tales of the South Pacific
and your shooting bears from a carrier?

No steam left in your catapult? We are all desolate...

Goofy Putz.


LHA / WMD