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March 24th 04, 11:51 AM

Subject: Ham-radio is a hobby not a service
From: (Len Over 21)
Date: 3/23/2004 9:47 PM Central Standard Time
Message-id:

In article ,
(Steve
Robeson K4CAP) writes:

In article , JJ

writes:

Sure they do, but in the case of a 9/11 emergency they would be hard
pressed to use them. Cell phone are great during the planning, but when
the real emergency comes, they become useless for emergency comms.

Not always true.

You want to select the 11 September 2001 Attack on America as
a typical emergency but that was a very UNtypical emergency
that no one could foresee or plan for. In the "9/11" incident ALL
methods of communications were strained.

A point we can agree on.

That isn't up for any discussion.

OW!...Lennie can't stand being agreed with!

THAT had to hurt!

There are NO verifiable stories about amateur radio doing anything
to aid anyone in the first few hours of the Attack in New York City
on 11 Sep 01. Conversely, even though the NYC Emergency
Center was almost destroyed in that Attack, police and fire
department personnel were in constant communications before and
immediately after the Attack in and around the World Trade Center.
Add to that the medical people, NYC officials, and various utilities
and other businesses who got into immediate action. All of that is
quite well documented in many and various media outside of
hobby groups.

Now THAT we CAN'T.

There have already been a half dozen recriminating "inquests" as to why
various communications failures occured with FDNY, NYPD, PAPF, EMS and othr
agencies.

Exactly who was "recriminated?" There were investigations, yes, but
"inquests" also?

Too bad you don't subscribe to any EMS/Rescue journals, Lennie...Ya might
learn something about radio other than what you spew about in here.....It's a
bitter subject within Fire/EMS circles right now.

Recrimination is the act answering an accuser by accusing them
in return. That is what you do to others in here. Who and where
were the agencies doing this "recrimination?"

New York. NYPD. The Port Authority. FDNY. NYOES.

An inquest is specifically a judicial inquiry, as before a jury. Which
agency appeared at any inquest and at what time? What was the
ruling?

THAT has been reported in "USA Today" and other nationwide media
sources.

I don't read USA Today, only the Los Angeles and New York Times,
Time magazine, Newsweek, and sometimes the Wall Street
Journal and Variety. I don't recall the "inquests" or "recriminations"
you allege. Please supply details on specifics.

Perhaps you should read some Amateur publications. Even THEY have made
reference to some of the "boards" that have been called.

And almost every plan from the Department of Defense on down to "Podunk
Hollow USA" have some provision for including (or at least considering)
implementing Amateur Radio as a recourse.

As a secondary, not a primary use.

Lennie...

Only YOU and Brain keep trying to insinuate that Amateur Radio would be
"primary" communicaitons source.

And PLEASE note MY comment where I SPECIICALLY STATED "...implementing
Amateur Radio as a recourse"...Or do I need to define "recourse" for you?

The Auxilliary Communications Service of the state of California
accepts volunteers with or without amateur license and doesn't
even consider amateur radio as a primary fall-back medium for
large-scale emergencies.

You had better reassess using that "doesn't even consider amateur radio"
comment vis-a-vis ACS.

According to one of APCO's vice presidents (who happened to be at HR04),
ACS very thoroughly utilizes Amateur Radio and Amateur Radio operators.

Since he was part-and-parcel of the organization of ACS, I'd assume he
knows...

A case in point is the "other" "9/11" Attack on the Pentagon in
DC....(Snip to....)
After crash fire control and search and rescue was coordinated by on-
site military and civilian communications, not by amateur radio.

Lennie...why do you keep trying to make a point of this?

No one here has even remotely suggested that it was otherwise.

YOU have.

No, I've not. I've not made a single reference to the activities at the
Pentagon as it pertains to the events of Spetember 11th.

You will please cite the quote that you suggests that I did?

There are no viable
reports of amateur radio being used while that most definite
emergency situation was happening. (In reference to the 4th
hijacking...SR)

"SR?" That wasn't in my post. Why are you adding things?

I "added" a clarification that you were refering to the fourth hijacking.

I stated that clearly and added my initials as evidence that it was I, not
you that put that there.

If you are so feeble as to not be able to follow that without having to
requote the ENTIRE post, then I will, but it will just eat up bandwidth.

I don't think you are THAT idiotic, but if I need to do it to help keep
you focused, I'll be glad to do it in the future.

However Amateur Radio WAS employed in the post-incident recovery at the
site.

In WHAT NTSB "recovery?" The NTSB has its own investigators
and recovery procedures, such procedures limited to hired salvage
operators and military personnel.

Describe this "post-incident recovery" and tell us what the NTSB
has documented and where we might find all that for reference.

Try the press, Lennie.

Try the Pennsylvania Office of Emergency Services.

Try the Office of the Governor of the Commonwealth of Pennsylvania who
issued a letter of appreciation to ARES for thier service at the site.

The "9/11" Attack is popular to espouse because of the enormous
emotional impact to all Americans. But, it was an ATTACK done
by other humans against all of us and definitely NOT some kind of
natural event emergency or disaster. The "kamikazi" nature of
this suicide attack was NOT anticipated by anyone and all were
in surprise and all had to work through the immediate aftermath
with whatever reseources were available.

Oh...so as long as the causal effect was "intentional", then we can
discount using Amateur Radio to receover from teh post incident effects,
Lennie...?!?!

No...because the amateur radio assistance was quite small
compared to the overall task of recovery, including the assistance
of other volunteer groups who aided the city of New York.

And you base this "small" quantification upon what reference? You having
not read about it in the LA Times?

The National Transportation and Safety Board does not "train
radio amateurs" to recover crash evidence. Try not to falsify your
exaggerations by spouting lies and assorted untruths.

The "mistruth" here, Lennie H is that you alledge that I suggested that
Amateurs "recover crash evidence."

You now have yet another lie to apologize for, Lennie.

And you can, in the same effort, cite where I allegedly said that Amateurs
were involved in "crash evidence" recovery.

Quick Lennie...an excuse...quick!

Steve, K4YZ

March 24th 04, 11:57 AM

Subject: Ham-radio is a hobby not a service
From: (Len Over 21)
Date: 3/23/2004 9:47 PM Central Standard Time
Message-id:

In article ,
(Steve
Robeson K4CAP) writes:

In the WTC Attack during 11 Sep 01, the NYC Emergency
Communications Center (in an adjacent building) was largely
destroyed by falling debris, also severing many trunk lines
of the telephone system. NYC police and fire units did work-
arounds using their own radios in a relay system to several
centrals, calling in other agencies as well as special units to
help. Some cell phone service did work, regardless of myth to
the contrary and some wired phone service still worked, used
by almost anyone on the WTC Attack scene. Amateur radio
did not play any significant part (if any at all) during the few
hours after the Attack on the WTC.

However Amateur Radio DID play a "major role" in the following DAYS of
post-incident recovery.

Incorrect. NOT a "major role." NYC handled its own debris removal.
(SNIP)

No need in trying to respond to the rest of your verbose obfuscations,
Lennie...Not when you try to go directly from Amateur Radio's role in
communicaitons to discussing "debris removal", none of which had anything to do
with the topic being discussed.

Nice dodge.

Steve, K4YZ

March 24th 04, 12:21 PM

Subject: Ham-radio is a hobby not a service
From: (Len Over 21)
Date: 3/23/2004 9:47 PM Central Standard Time
Message-id:

In article ,
(Steve
Robeson K4CAP) writes:

Subject: Ham-radio is a hobby not a service
From: (William)
Date: 3/21/2004 7:14 PM Central Standard Time
Message-id:

I suggest you tell Average Citizen that he or she needs to have an
amateur radio operator strapped to their hip for emergency purposes.

Where did I speak of the average citizen?

That's who I've been speaking of all along. Do try to keep up.

JJ...please take CAREEFUL note.

YOU were talking about disaster preparedness, those sets of plans in
place by your local or state EMA, FEMA, etc. And in the overall scheme
of things, you (and I) are correct.

Brian is correct. You are not.

I am sure you think so.

FEMA and TEMA officials tend to think otherwise, and for SOME reason, I
value THIER opinons more than I do yours, Lennie........

The scope of operations by the larger emergency agencies in the
United States are available for viewing on the Internet.

Yes, they are.

And for those who care to be INVOLVED in those opertions, know that that
the "scope of operations" exceeds the PR spin provided on those websites.

You really do need to get Mrs Putz to let you out more, Sir Scummy.

Brain, on the other hand, having been UNABLE to successfully argue
against
the value of Amateur Radio in those plans, has shifted his definition of
"emergency comms" to those of STRICTLY "the average citizen".

Again incorrect. Brian Burke has stated the obvious condition of
emergency situations which affect ALL citizens, "average" to
the self-posturing, self-important minority who think only they are
right and "superior" to the average.

I am not "superior", however in this case I AM right.

In the very narrow slice of "emergency comms" that Brian the Brainless
has
wedged himself into, yes, John Q Public is going to whip out the old
cellphone
and call 9-1-1 to get a cop, report a fire, or request EMS for an accident
or
medical emergency...Just like he would have dialed a payphone 5 years ago.

That is more like "dialing a 'payphone' [sic] 25 years ago."

Try to keep up with urban conditions and the number of pay telephones
versus cellular handsets and subscriptions for same.

There is NO "Brian the Brainless" in here. Try to hold down the
insulting behavior.

Sure there is...Just like there's a "Dill Sergeant", "Reverend Jimmy", etc
etc etc.

There's even a Lennie the Liar.

The 911 Emergency Number plan has been in existance for far more
that "5 years." It is a national plan. It was implemented primarily
to handle the small-scale emergencies common everywhere in this
United States. Such calls are the majority of situations, not "a
very narrow slice" as you incorrectly state.

Less than 40% of ACTUAL CALLS to 9-1-1 services are bonafide
"emergencies", big or small.

In some cases the number drops to 20%.

These numbers per APCO and subject to on-going sampling.

9-1-1 has become the de facto "police" or "ambulance" number, whether or
not an emergency exists.

In a true "disaster preparedness" mode, cellphones may suffer all of
the
bad things that you and I have said they will.

Incorrect again. In a "true disaster" SITUATION (not a 'mode') the
telephone system may be overloaded. However, the same thing
may be said of all amateur radio in that same situation. Hypothetical
situations are merely hypothetical, not real things.

If every Amateur licensee was on-the-air during an "emergency" occupying a
discreet channel of his/her choice, over 80% of all available Amateur
frequencies would be empty.

It's highly unlikely that "Amateur Radio" will be "overloaded".

Hypotheses should reflect on objective consideration of the entire
situation and its infrastructure. Hypotheses should not be subjective
conjecture based on personal desires, thoughts or preferences. You
are guilty of subjective conjecture in your disordered hypothesis.

Nope.

Cellphone and hardline common carrier services HAVE suffered network-wide
failures in a number of different disaster situations.

This is not a "hypothesis" or "conjecture", Lennie.

It's happened.

THAT assertion is made upon the evidence that such incidents have
ALREADY
HAPPENED, and those occurences have been sufficient to impress the REAL
"emergency comms" planners to continue to incorporate Amateur Radio in a
wide
range of plans.

The "real emergency communications planners" are no doubt very
well aware that the telephone system can become overloaded with
callers at the onset of any large emergency. However, such
overloads affect only the switch capabilities of most subscribers,
not the users of leased lines which do not route through switches
(broadcast stations' audio, fire department station alert circuits).

Not all of which enjoy such dedicated lines.

And when teh switch itself becomes incapacitated, then it doesn't matter
HOW "dedicated" the line is...broke is broke.

Large-scale emergencies do not require "notification" of an event's
occurrance in most cases. An earthquake is most definitely felt
over a large geographical area. A tall skyscraper pair hit by
hijacked airliners is visible to tens of thousands of city dwellers.
A raging firestorm creates enough smoke to be seen to the
visible horizon. A hurricane or tornado is preceded by spectacular
(and unfortunately familiar to long-time dwellers) cloud conditions;
some tornados and nearly all hurricanes are spotted by weather
satellites and tracked, with public notifications, by NOAA. Floods
are nearly all preceded by high rainfall storms. Such "real"
emergency conditions may result in destruction of amateur radio
capabilities as well as commercial or government communiations.

And they have. Thankfully, ARES and other agencies have made
accomodations for being able to pack in back-up equipment, mobile repeaters,
etc.

Not "imagined" equipment. REAL equipment.

Reiterating from another thread, the major emergency agencies all
have websites for easy access to their organization and policy.
Information from them is public and accessible on request.

And your point is...?!?!

Is there some agency that has amateur radio as a prime method
of emergency communications by any emergency agency in the
United States? I think not. Plans and policies of the "real"
emergency agencies will place amateur radio as a secondary,
or fall-back method of communications. First choice is the
existing public safety agency communications and
communications service providers such as telephone companies.

Lennie WHO said Amateur Radio is a "PRIME" method, other than YOU...?!?!

This is not "urban legend" or based upon some " feel good news release
of
the ARRL" as Lennie the Loser would have us believe. Real, front-page news
stuff. Sorry he won't admit it, but that only helps to substantiate MY
claims
about his "superior intellect".

Personal pejoratives against another do not win your argument.

No, but your failings to substantiate anything you've asserted do.

The information about "real" emergency agencies is out there for
all to see. If all you can see is what you want to see, then you
can only be accused of narrow mental tunnel vision.

Sorry, Your Putziness...I am INVOLVED with many of these agencies.

Regardless of what some PR-intense website may or maynot say, it's what
they can actaully DO that counts.

So they may, but in times of emergency, the military and other civil
authorites will not rely on cell phones to handle major emergency
communications.

And it's always about the military and civil authorities, isn't it?

I am no longer an instrument of national policy. Are you?

As long as my Right to Vote has not been revoked, you're danged tooting
I am!

Brian used the term "instrument of national policy" as a euphemism
for military service. In this case he indicated he was no longer IN
the military service.

Regardless of what methodology he insinutated, Your Scumminess, I am as
much an "instrument of national policy" as long as I participate in the
programs dictated by that policy, and as long as I have a vote in it, my status
as a member of the Armed Forces not withstanding.

BTW: The Armed Forces are an instrument of FOREIGN policy...Posse
Commitatus refers.

Voting Rights are guaranteed by the U.S. Constitution and are NOT
restricted to military service personnel. Review Amendments 15, 17,
19, 24, and 26 to see Voting Rights for United States citizens.

If you have been discharged from military service in the United States
then you are no longer in that military service.

I never said I was.

Only YOU keep trying to amke some inference that I am, Lennie.

Try again, blockhead.

I am a veteran of U.S. Army service, 1952 to 1960. My Honorable
Discharge was granted in April, 1960. I have always been a citizen
of the United States and have managed to vote in every election
in my residence location since 1956. Regardless, you tried to
prevent my communications with my government over federal law
pending on 25 January 1999 (see FCC ECFS 98-143 for that date).

You cannot deny the above since your attempt is public information
and available for all to see.

Why do you assume "power" that you do not have?

I "assumed" nothing.

You are free to say what you want.

I am free to counter it with my own opinion.

THAT is a guarantee of the same governmental documents that you like to
cite...remember...?!?!

Why do you continue to post petty personal pejoratives against
those who disagree with you?

Perhaps becasue of the same "petty personal pejoratives" who disagree with
me, Lennie...

Seek mental health therapy. It will improve your thinking and be
better for all of us.

Seek it yourself, Lennie.

Seems to me that it's just you and Brain that have a problem with me. And
if you'd stop lying and misrepresenting the character and facts relative to
Amateur Radio, you wouldn't even have that...

Steve, K4YZ

March 24th 04, 11:40 PM

(Steve Robeson K4CAP) wrote in message ...

I am not "superior", however in this case I AM right.

You are "right" in your statement that you are not superior.

You are also right in your claim that you are #2.

See how those go hand in hand?

Now excuse me while I go #1.

March 24th 04, 11:46 PM

(Steve Robeson K4CAP) wrote in message ...

Seems to me that it's just you and Brain that have a problem with me. And
if you'd stop lying and misrepresenting the character and facts relative to
Amateur Radio, you wouldn't even have that...

Steve, K4YZ

More untruths.

Mark Morgan

RRAP is littered with people you hate.

March 25th 04, 04:45 AM

In article ,
(William) writes:

(Steve Robeson K4CAP) wrote in message
...

Seems to me that it's just you and Brain that have a problem with me.
And
if you'd stop lying and misrepresenting the character and facts relative to
Amateur Radio, you wouldn't even have that...

Steve, K4YZ

More untruths.

Mark Morgan

RRAP is littered with people you hate.

Ahem...the sentence got mixed up.

RRAP is littered with his hatreds.

Brian, might as well give up on the gunnery nurse. All he wants to do
is fight, fight, fight. If anyone knows Don King's number maybe we
could get him to arrange a match? Like with Muhammed Ali? :-)

LHA / WMD

March 25th 04, 01:04 PM

(Len Over 21) wrote in message ...
In article ,
(William) writes:

(Steve Robeson K4CAP) wrote in message
...

Seems to me that it's just you and Brain that have a problem with me.
And
if you'd stop lying and misrepresenting the character and facts relative to
Amateur Radio, you wouldn't even have that...

Steve, K4YZ

More untruths.

Mark Morgan

RRAP is littered with people you hate.

Ahem...the sentence got mixed up.

RRAP is littered with his hatreds.

Brian, might as well give up on the gunnery nurse. All he wants to do
is fight, fight, fight. If anyone knows Don King's number maybe we
could get him to arrange a match? Like with Muhammed Ali? :-)

LHA / WMD

A fight with Muhammed Ali?

I think a debate between Muhammed and Steve would be more balanced and entertaining.

March 27th 04, 02:56 PM

(William) wrote in message . com...
(Len Over 21) wrote in message ...
In article ,
(William) writes:

(Steve Robeson K4CAP) wrote in message
...

Seems to me that it's just you and Brain that have a problem with me.
And
if you'd stop lying and misrepresenting the character and facts relative to
Amateur Radio, you wouldn't even have that...

Steve, K4YZ

More untruths.

Mark Morgan

RRAP is littered with people you hate.

Ahem...the sentence got mixed up.

RRAP is littered with his hatreds.

Brian, might as well give up on the gunnery nurse. All he wants to do
is fight, fight, fight. If anyone knows Don King's number maybe we
could get him to arrange a match? Like with Muhammed Ali? :-)

LHA / WMD

A fight with Muhammed Ali?

I think a debate between Muhammed and Steve would be more balanced and entertaining.

Spelling B?

March 25th 04, 02:06 PM

Subject: Ham-radio is a hobby not a service
From: (Len Over 21)
Date: 3/24/2004 10:45 PM Central Standard Time
Message-id:

RRAP is littered with his hatreds.

Only as long as you continue to tell tales that are easily proven to be
false.

Brian, might as well give up on the gunnery nurse. All he wants to do
is fight, fight, fight. If anyone knows Don King's number maybe we
could get him to arrange a match? Like with Muhammed Ali?

There are a lot of things I'd rather do than fight.

In this case, I am not "fighting". All I am doing is airing out YOUR (and
Brain's) dirty laundry.

Fail to tell the truth and have it found out, and it WILL come back to
haunt you.

Steve, K4YZ

March 25th 04, 02:03 PM

Subject: Ham-radio is a hobby not a service
From: (William)
Date: 3/24/2004 5:46 PM Central Standard Time
Message-id:

(Steve Robeson K4CAP) wrote in message
...

Seems to me that it's just you and Brain that have a problem with me.
And
if you'd stop lying and misrepresenting the character and facts relative to
Amateur Radio, you wouldn't even have that...

Steve, K4YZ

More untruths.

Mark Morgan

RRAP is littered with people you hate.

Mark's not here anymore.

Mark, like you, was a chronic liar.

Mark isn't here anymore because he got wise when we kept re-quoting those
things he insisted he didn't say, yet was right in front of him. In THAT
regard, it was the only wise thing he ever did (ie: leave)

Like I said...I don't tolerate liars. Mark was proven to be a liar.
Lennie's been proven to be a lair, and now you are.

Wadda ya know!

Steve, K4YZ

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