Why Can't N-ZERO-IMD Validate His Own Claims...?!?!
 

Hello, Steve


I think I have figured out the real problem behind most of the flames both
in this group and rec.radio.cb. I might be wrong, but it appears everyone
is trying to defend that their particular turf is "important" and someone
else's is not.

If you go back into the 50s and 60s, amateur radio served quite well for
long-haul phone patches and in emergencies. Very localized emergencies,
such as an auto accident would largely be reported by normal telephone. In
the 70s, the cb craze took hold and certainly I would expect that cb was
sometimes used to report the accidents. The small number of amateurs would
preclude them being involved very often in such a situation. Voilla, cb is
more important than ham radio.

Fast-forward to today. Cell phones are likely the primary means of
reporting those accidents. Who needs the hams? Some hams will say "who
needs cb?"

A lot of folks state that amateur radio isn't a service; it's just a hobby.

Few take into account how fragile that infrastructure of cell phones,
telephones, and internet can be when a large area is affected. That nasty
ice storm in the North East (was it 1997?) affected areas for hundreds of
miles. There were no cell phones as the cell phone towers went silent after
power had been out for days. No electricty, no heat, no telephones for
hundreds of miles. A relative of mine in Gouverneur, NY, had no heat,
power, or telephone for two *weeks*!!!

One amateur repeater was pressed into service for the police. I do not know
if the repeater was reprogrammed or they simply moved the police repeater to
the amateur site. The amateur site withstood the ice and they had generator
backup with a *lot* of fuel available.

I don't think it is as important "how" something is done as opposed to the
fact that it gets done. If someone is assisting at a shelter cooking meals,
that individual is *doing* something. That, to me, is more important than
all of the useless crying that goes on around these parts from time to time
;)

BTW, during that ice storm, the calls were going out for batteries,
flashlights, generators, blankets, food, coffee, and mobile amateur
operators with HF capabilities. If you have nothing working for well over
100 miles in the N.E. U.S. and Canada, you will likely not get it done on
VHF/UHF or cb.

73 from Rochester, NY
Jim AA2QA



---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.637 / Virus Database: 408 - Release Date: 3/20/04

Jim Hampton wrote:


Few take into account how fragile that infrastructure of cell phones,
telephones, and internet can be when a large area is affected. That nasty
ice storm in the North East (was it 1997?) affected areas for hundreds of
miles. There were no cell phones as the cell phone towers went silent after
power had been out for days. No electricty, no heat, no telephones for
hundreds of miles. A relative of mine in Gouverneur, NY, had no heat,
power, or telephone for two *weeks*!!!

Surley you jest, according to witless willie cell phones will be there
for emergencies.

One amateur repeater was pressed into service for the police. I do not know
if the repeater was reprogrammed or they simply moved the police repeater to
the amateur site. The amateur site withstood the ice and they had generator
backup with a *lot* of fuel available.

You mean that Amateur Radio withstood the ravages of the storm and the
cell network did not! Looks like Amateur Radio was there when needed
again, but the cell network just couldn't hack it.


BTW, during that ice storm, the calls were going out for batteries,
flashlights, generators, blankets, food, coffee, and mobile amateur
operators with HF capabilities. If you have nothing working for well over
100 miles in the N.E. U.S. and Canada, you will likely not get it done on
VHF/UHF or cb.

I guess the batteries for the cell network hadn't been charged up in
prep for an emergency.

Sure, the cell phone towers have batteries. They're likely fine for a
number of hours of outage - but Gouverneur had no power for over two weeks.
Those batteries aren't designed to last for weeks of drain without recharge.
In this country, an engineer could well be fired for overdesigning something
(that costs money). Likewise, those batteries are there to keep things
working for a *short* power outage. It would cost too much to design those
cell towers to run on batteries for weeks on end with no recharging in that
period. It probably wouldn't have mattered much anyways as the conventional
phone lines were out too - and cell phones are wireless only between the
user and the tower. BTW, unless you had your own generator and were on
two-way satellite internet, you wouldn't have the internet either. No
telephone, no dial-up, no DSL. I have no idea how well any cable systems
made out, but with the telephone system down I don't know if they had any
way to get information out of the area.


73 from Rochester, NY
Jim AA2QA


"JJ" wrote in message
...
You mean that Amateur Radio withstood the ravages of the storm and the
cell network did not! Looks like Amateur Radio was there when needed
again, but the cell network just couldn't hack it.


I guess the batteries for the cell network hadn't been charged up in
prep for an emergency.




---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.637 / Virus Database: 408 - Release Date: 3/20/04

In article , "Jim Hampton"
writes:

Sure, the cell phone towers have batteries. They're likely fine for a
number of hours of outage - but Gouverneur had no power for over two weeks.
Those batteries aren't designed to last for weeks of drain without recharge.
In this country, an engineer could well be fired for overdesigning something
(that costs money).

Right, those darn engineers are the cause of all the problems!

Likewise, those batteries are there to keep things
working for a *short* power outage. It would cost too much to design those
cell towers to run on batteries for weeks on end with no recharging in that
period. It probably wouldn't have mattered much anyways as the conventional
phone lines were out too - and cell phones are wireless only between the
user and the tower. BTW, unless you had your own generator and were on
two-way satellite internet, you wouldn't have the internet either.

You don't have a motor-generator set for emergency power?!?

Gosh and golly, aren't all radio amateurs "emergency minutemen,"
ready to leap in and save the day with ham radio?

I've been told that...

LHA / WMD

In article , "Jim Hampton"
writes:

Hello, Steve

I think I have figured out the real problem behind most of the flames both
in this group and rec.radio.cb. I might be wrong, but it appears everyone
is trying to defend that their particular turf is "important" and someone
else's is not.

...more likely just defending their own pesonna, but why spoil your
nice rant? :-)

If you go back into the 50s and 60s, amateur radio served quite well for
long-haul phone patches and in emergencies. Very localized emergencies,
such as an auto accident would largely be reported by normal telephone. In
the 70s, the cb craze took hold and certainly I would expect that cb was
sometimes used to report the accidents. The small number of amateurs would
preclude them being involved very often in such a situation. Voilla, cb is
more important than ham radio.

Fast-forward to today. Cell phones are likely the primary means of
reporting those accidents. Who needs the hams? Some hams will say "who
needs cb?"

A lot of folks state that amateur radio isn't a service; it's just a hobby.

Amateurs are all there to SERVE as "emergency minutemen!"

Right.

Few take into account how fragile that infrastructure of cell phones,
telephones, and internet can be when a large area is affected.

Riiight...on 11 Sep 01 the entire borough of Manhattan went down
after the Attack on the WTC towers...?

Ham radio was Johnny-on-the-spot immediately notifying all?

That nasty
ice storm in the North East (was it 1997?) affected areas for hundreds of
miles. There were no cell phones as the cell phone towers went silent after
power had been out for days. No electricty, no heat, no telephones for
hundreds of miles. A relative of mine in Gouverneur, NY, had no heat,
power, or telephone for two *weeks*!!!

Upstate New York is YOUR "turf," right?

Was anyone knocking the state of New York? (or New Yourk?)

I don't think so.

One amateur repeater was pressed into service for the police. I do not know
if the repeater was reprogrammed or they simply moved the police repeater to
the amateur site. The amateur site withstood the ice and they had generator
backup with a *lot* of fuel available.

Did the nasty police engineer get fired because he didn't specify
emergency power for the "police repeater?"

I don't think it is as important "how" something is done as opposed to the
fact that it gets done. If someone is assisting at a shelter cooking meals,
that individual is *doing* something. That, to me, is more important than
all of the useless crying that goes on around these parts from time to time

Right...I'm going to need a ham license in order to volunteer serving
at homeless shelters? They do serve ham. Quite good, tastes like
chicken...wonder who it was?

BTW, during that ice storm, the calls were going out for batteries,
flashlights, generators, blankets, food, coffee, and mobile amateur
operators with HF capabilities. If you have nothing working for well over
100 miles in the N.E. U.S. and Canada, you will likely not get it done on
VHF/UHF or cb.

Did New York state close down all its National Guard units? Air
Guard? Political disagreement between NY Governor and the
White House? Was FEMA on vacation? No aid available for NY
state? Terrible situation!

Well, next time that happens, send me an aid request via NTS.
I'll put together a CARE package for you with an extra can of
Sterno so you won't be too cold. Ought to arrive in two months;
takes 7 weeks to get the NTS message through...allow for
sufficient time.

Anything to help.

LHA / WMD

On Sat, 20 Mar 2004 22:52:45 GMT, Jim Hampton wrote:

Sure, the cell phone towers have batteries. They're likely fine for a
number of hours of outage - but Gouverneur had no power for over two weeks.
Those batteries aren't designed to last for weeks of drain without recharge.
In this country, an engineer could well be fired for overdesigning something
(that costs money). Likewise, those batteries are there to keep things
working for a *short* power outage. It would cost too much to design those
cell towers to run on batteries for weeks on end with no recharging in that
period.

UPS float-charged batteries are designed to keep the equipment on
line until the backup generator gets up to speed/voltage. This
assumes that the latter is tested regularly. Pac*Bell learned that
the hard way when one of their gas turbine backup generators
literally tore itself to pieces when it attempted to start after
the 1989 Loma Prieta earthquake - it had not been serviced or
tested for four years. Any garage mechanic can service a diesel
genset - it takes an aviation A&P qualified mechanic to service the
gas turbine....and their services cost money.

It probably wouldn't have mattered much anyways as the conventional
phone lines were out too - and cell phones are wireless only between the
user and the tower.

Survivable microwave and fiber are the downlinks of choice nowadays.

The engineering firm that I consult for is in the business of
designing such facilities for the public safety amd land
transportation sector. Seismic Class 4 - storm and earthquake
survivable - is now required for all new or upgraded critical (i.e.
public safety) radio installations in California and we recommend it
for everyone.

What the make-it-cheaply phone companies do would make ol' Ma Bell
spin in her grave.

--
73 de K2ASP - Phil Kane

From a Clearing in the Silicon Forest
Beaverton (Washington County) Oregon

Len Over 21 knocked the little old lady resthome resident from in front
of the computer, grabbed the keybord and blathered:

Well, next time that happens, send me an aid request via NTS.
I'll put together a CARE package for you with an extra can of
Sterno so you won't be too cold. Ought to arrive in two months;
takes 7 weeks to get the NTS message through...allow for
sufficient time.

Anything to help.

No, ham radio does not "save the day" in every emergency, although it
has at times, nor does every ham claim to be a hero, although some have
gone above and beyond just like a lot of other good folks. Not often
does ham radio become *the* major means of communications in a disaster
situation, but it has in the past and likely will again in the future.
Not in every disaster is ham radio called upon to help and supplement
other official comms, but it has in the past and likely will in the future.

Poor old senile lennieboy, he just can't bring himself to admit that ham
radio has and will play a vital part in emergency communications, and he
can't be a part of it because he can't pass the test.

The military, Homeland Defense, and other civil officials recgonize the
value that ham radio can be in times of emergencies, they intergrate it
in their disaster planning, but they wouldn't give you the time of day
lennieboy. Grinds your hemorrhoids dosen't it?
Now go back to pestering the little old ladies in the sitting room.

Steve Robeson, K4CAP wrote:

As I stated in another thread, I had the chance to spend the day
in the TEMA/FEMA facility in Nashville.

The ONLY "unlicensed" devices in the facility were two cordless
phones, both of which were part of unsecure phone lines.

I am wondering, Brain, is THAT what YOU call a "MAJOR
ROLE"...?!?!

Steve, are you trying to tell us that the facility did *not* have a
specially dedicated cell phone just for disaster emergency comms?

Len,

It wasn't the lack of a back-up generator that brought the police tower
down - it was *ICE*. Ice destroyed the antenna.

Immediately after the attack on the WTC, everyone in Rochester that was on
AT&T worldnet lost our internet. Funny how that happened. We had
telephone, but no dial-up internet. I suspect there were major switching
operations where the attack occurred.

As far as the ice storm, I was lucky. It did not get this far west. It was
the Eastern half of NYS.

BTW, I am beginning to understand how you manage to have so many detractors
in this newsgroup ...

73 from Rochester, NY
Jim AA2QA



---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.637 / Virus Database: 408 - Release Date: 3/20/04

Jim Hampton wrote:

BTW, I am beginning to understand how you manage to have so many detractors
in this newsgroup ...


Were you ever at a party and trying to talk to the adults while some 5
year old was running around pestering people just to get attention?

- Mike KB3EIA -

In article , Mike Coslo
writes:

Jim Hampton wrote:

BTW, I am beginning to understand how you manage to have so many detractors
in this newsgroup ...

Were you ever at a party and trying to talk to the adults while some 5
year old was running around pestering people just to get attention?

That was the 5-year-old General, wasn't it? Kid had lots of QSL
cards, yammering that "Australia came in so LOUD last night!"

You should have taken kid aside and Elmered the 5-year-old into
an Extra upgrade.

LHA / WMD

In article , "Jim Hampton"
writes:

Len,

It wasn't the lack of a back-up generator that brought the police tower
down - it was *ICE*. Ice destroyed the antenna.

Thank you for the clarification.

Immediately after the attack on the WTC, everyone in Rochester that was on
AT&T worldnet lost our internet. Funny how that happened. We had
telephone, but no dial-up internet. I suspect there were major switching
operations where the attack occurred.

No loss of AOL here. Nor of broadcast TV feeds from NYC on
the major networks.

As far as the ice storm, I was lucky. It did not get this far west. It was
the Eastern half of NYS.

I'm sorry you had problems. Others in here have not been sorry
that the southwestern USA has experienced several spectacular
emergencies with losses of life. Some were actually overjoyed
that we had problems...such as the 1994 Northridge Earthquake
that killed over 50 people and got us an in-person Presidential
visit. Some easterners are very parochial and consider our "west"
to be not of the Union. [search Google for examples]

In such an environment of truly rude and obnoxious newsgroupies,
it is difficult to be Their kind of "civil" and support their bigoted
opinions. My apologies for slighting anyone in the NY state
area suffering winter ice storms and prolonged power outages.
I have friends in NY state too. They don't work in communications.

BTW, I am beginning to understand how you manage to have so many detractors
in this newsgroup ...

I am sure you do. :-)

Independent thought is a terrible thing to some. They can't stand
it and fight with might against it. "Ein volk, ein Reich!" (sound
familiar?) :-)

See the title of this particular thread. One individual seeks to
harass and intimidate another amateur...on baseless "charges"
that the individual manufactured out of spite and/or illness.

Do you approve of such behavior?

LHA / WMD

In article , JJ
writes:

Len Over 21 knocked the little old lady resthome resident from in front
of the computer, grabbed the keybord and blathered:

Tsk, tsk, tsk. Tuff Tawk already in "reply?" :-)

My home is quite restful, thank you. My wife likes it, too. But,
it is not a "resthome"...2000 square feet, 1/3 acre, worth at
least $350K on the market. My wife and I have three PCs at
our disposal, all working, and that's not counting two older,
smaller ones in the workshop (the indoor one, not the garage).

No, ham radio does not "save the day" in every emergency, although it
has at times, nor does every ham claim to be a hero, although some have
gone above and beyond just like a lot of other good folks.

Good sign. You are beginning to see reality.

Not often
does ham radio become *the* major means of communications in a disaster
situation, but it has in the past and likely will again in the future.

When in the past?

When in the future? You mean when aliens from outer space
attack us and you morsemen save the planet? (Hollywood
already did that)

Not in every disaster is ham radio called upon to help and supplement
other official comms, but it has in the past and likely will in the future.

I'm sure.

Poor old senile lennieboy, he just can't bring himself to admit that ham
radio has and will play a vital part in emergency communications, and he
can't be a part of it because he can't pass the test.

Tsk, tsk, tsk. You've been on the same stuff that the gunnery nurse
takes?

Try not to sprinkle in so many insults. They don't work and all it
does is make you look puerile (as in wise-ass adolescent).

The military, Homeland Defense, and other civil officials recgonize the
value that ham radio can be in times of emergencies, they intergrate it
in their disaster planning, but they wouldn't give you the time of day
lennieboy.

The time of day arrives accurately from WWVB over our two radio
clocks. I can depend on it. If they fail to work there is always
WWV on HF. No problem.

The military, "Homeland Defense" (isn't that "Homeland Security?")
is not the place to get "time of day." Neither is my civil official
government high-sounding title administration. But the city of Los
Angeles has an excellent, tried and proven Emergency Command
Center...I'm very familiar with that.

Grinds your hemorrhoids dosen't it?

No. Why the concern over my medical condition? Do you have
a pile problem? See a medical doctor for treatment if so.

Now go back to pestering the little old ladies in the sitting room.

My wife is watching television right now. In the family room.
She's the only other human living in this house. She is of
average size, not "little."

We aren't needing to take in boarders, income is quite
comfortable, thank you.

Try at least to be civil if you won't identify yourself. You are
behaving like Broose and the gunnery nurse.

LHA / WMD

In article ,
(Steve Robeson, K4CAP) writes:

(Steve Robeson, K4CAP) wrote in message
.com...
(William) wrote in message
.com...

(Steve Robeson K4CAP) wrote in message
...

You and Dee simply cannot accept that an unlicensed service
has
played
a major role in emergency comms.

What "unlicensed service"...?!?! CB? FRS? MURS? Part 15
compliant devices?

Sure. Why not?

The FACTS are that the "unlicensed" services (11 meter CB, FRS,
MURS and Part 15) provide NOTHING more than an ancilliary function in
ANY "emergency comms" and you know this to be true.

As I stated in another thread, I had the chance to spend the day
in the TEMA/FEMA facility in Nashville.

Couldn't make it out of state? :-)

The ONLY "unlicensed" devices in the facility were two cordless
phones, both of which were part of unsecure phone lines.

"Unsecure?!?" You saw KY-98s in that facility? KY-57s?

Playing war games were you?

I am wondering, Brain, is THAT what YOU call a "MAJOR
ROLE"...?!?!

Putz.

Yup, rude and obnoxious, comes unglued on the slightest
disagreement. Well, at least that is consistent with previous
behavior of yours.

LHA / WMD

In article ,
(Steve Robeson, K4CAP) writes:

(William) wrote in message
.com...

(Steve Robeson K4CAP) wrote in message
...

You and Dee simply cannot accept that an unlicensed service has
played
a major role in emergency comms.

What "unlicensed service"...?!?! CB? FRS? MURS? Part 15
compliant devices?

Sure. Why not?

OK, Brain...YOUR "scenario" was "that an unlicensed service has
played a major role in emergency comms".

Now...provide me with some example of one of those "unlicensed
services" playing a "major role".

To ME, at least, "major role" means that SOME sort of crucial
event was dependent upon one of those "services" being able to render
a meaningful, positive outcome.

So...YOU put it out there, let's see you come up with some
pertinent examples.

And remember, Brain, "major" was YOUR adjective...NOT mine.

I'm just so happy that you finally acknowledged that mere cell
phones
play a major role in disaster communications. Or did you?

I said they played a role...just like Amateur Radio does.

Now...You made some silly assertions that I've asked you to
substantiate.

You got the cajones to come up with valid answers, or are we to
be treated to more of your lame sandlot excuses...???

You completely quoted all of that, Brain, but didn't answer a single
bit
of it...even facetiously...

Ya did a GOOD JOB of validating my assumption of your lack of valid
argument and lack of cajones to do so...

Remember, Brain...we're using YOUR adjectives of "MAJOR ROLE" in
disaster
and/or emergency communications.

So far, the only "role" you've been able to cite is Joe Average
calling
9-1-1 to report an emergency. That is NOT "emergency comms".

I WANT TO KNOW what ROLE those unlicensed services play in
disaster
mitigation EMERGENCY COMMUNICATIONS....

Thanks.

Steve, you need to tone it down a bit. You're being rude and
obnoxious. I'll not respond to your insanity in-kind. Best of luck
to you.

"Tone it down a bit"...?!?!

Yes. You go off on an emotional tirade whenever someone has
a contrary opinion to your own.

YOU made the assertion that "unlicensed services play a "major"
role in emergency comms".

Brian did not use those words.

I've asked you three or four times now to substantiate your
claims. YOUR claims, Brain...cited word-for-word, repeated by you
several times.

You've demanded, taken things out of context, edited words
to suit your "charges."

You "respond" by telling me I am rude and obnoxious.

You are.

You call ME "bizarre", yet you make outlandish assertions in a
public forum, then dodge all requests to "prove", at any level, your
claims.

See? There you go again, coming unglued.

Get someone to help you find better glue. Have someone
tell you that your "commands" don't need to be followed in
here.

Remember that you get all kinds of questions in return that
you never answer? You usually reply by a lot of insults and
other accusations without ever addressing the question.

I believe you to be a chronic liar. You have been "called" on
several occassions to back up your assertions, but then use this ruse
to try and avoid taking responsibility for your own actions.

You believe anyone is a "chronic liar" if they have opinions
contrary to your own.

Call me rude and obnoxious if you think it deflects attention from
you, but I can assure you that it does nothing of the sort. If
anything, childish dodges like this only highlight YOUR bizarre
behaviour.

In America it is spelled "behavior." Are you in peerage?

You are rude and obnoxious, almost constantly. Saying so
is not bizarre. It is evident to anyone who can read in here.

The FACTS are that the "unlicensed" services (11 meter CB, FRS,
MURS and Part 15) provide NOTHING more than an ancilliary function in
ANY "emergency comms" and you know this to be true.

Only among your circle of acquaintences.

I certainly do in as much as I am INVOLVED with "emergency comms"
on SEVERAL levels, not all of which involve the Amateur Radio or CAP.
Most everyone else in this forum knows these things to be true too.

Name them. The ones not specifically ham or CAP.

You and Lennie seem to be the only ones in this forum who think
that if you keep repeating the same lame, untrue "stuff" that it will
somehow manifest a thread of truth. Sorry...that doesn't work.

Tsk, tsk. You are looking into a mirror again.

You top this anamalous anonymous "JJ" in repeating myths and
cliches, waving self-patriotic bunting around like a suit of armor.

Now...PLEASE try and exceed my expectations with the next post
and pony-up some cajones to either admit you are either blatantly
lying, making wild guesses, or just trolling for the sake of making
arguments that you obviously can't support.

Oh, my, almost textbook psychosis complete with spicing of
macho sexual terms. "Cojones?" Quien sabe? :-)

Or REALLY try something new and discuss something you have some
EXPERIENCE in...THAT would be refreshing.

Go play with your ham radios. That way you could get some fun
out of life instead of coming in here and fighting with anyone who
has independent thought unlike your own. Make the newsgroup a
better place by your absence.

LHA / WMD

JJ wrote in message ...
Steve Robeson, K4CAP wrote:

As I stated in another thread, I had the chance to spend the day
in the TEMA/FEMA facility in Nashville.

The ONLY "unlicensed" devices in the facility were two cordless
phones, both of which were part of unsecure phone lines.

I am wondering, Brain, is THAT what YOU call a "MAJOR
ROLE"...?!?!

Steve, are you trying to tell us that the facility did *not* have a
specially dedicated cell phone just for disaster emergency comms?

Not unless it was being carried by one of the T/FEMA personnel.

All phones I saw in the EOC, othr than the aforementioned
"cordless" phones were hardline.

73

Steve, K4YZ

"Jim Hampton" wrote in message ...

BTW, I am beginning to understand how you manage to have so many detractors
in this newsgroup ...

I don't think anyone who posts anything about Lennie in what he'd
perceive as a "negative light" is "detract(ing)" anything from him,
Jim.

Leonard H. Anderson is his own worst enemy...His foul mouth and
his arrogant, "I Know Better Than You" personality
more-than-adequately demonstrate the true nature of his "character".

Now...I wonder why Brian Burke can't/won't answer the core
question of this thread, that being where's his validation of his
assertion that "licenseless services" play a "major role" (his choice
of adjectives, not mine...) in "emergency comms".

Even his cellphone operates, ultimately, under a license whether
he realizes it or not.

73

Steve, K4YZ

In article ,
(Steve Robeson, K4CAP) writes:

Leonard H. Anderson is his own worst enemy...His foul mouth and
his arrogant, "I Know Better Than You" personality
more-than-adequately demonstrate the true nature of his "character".

Then why bother with him, Steve?

Now...I wonder why Brian Burke can't/won't answer the core
question of this thread, that being where's his validation of his
assertion that "licenseless services" play a "major role" (his choice
of adjectives, not mine...) in "emergency comms".

Isn't it obvious? In the case you cite, "won't" means "can't".

Why bother with him, Steve?

You know the nature of the responses you will receive, so why spend the time on
folks who are not at all serious about amateur radio, or related policy issues?
Their hobby is wasting time. Your time.

If you're interested in amateur radio policy matters, there's the BPL NPRM to
comment on, plus three restructuring petitions (FAR, ARRL, NCVEC) that will
probably get RM numbers soon.

73 de Jim, N2EY

In article , "Jim Hampton"
writes:

If you go back into the 50s and 60s, amateur radio served quite well for
long-haul phone patches and in emergencies.

Service in emergencies goes back much farther, of course.

Very localized emergencies,
such as an auto accident would largely be reported by normal telephone.

Also by hams equipped with mobile rigs if telephone was not immediately
available.. This is documented all the way back to the beginning of mobile
operation by hams. Of course, the number of mobile-equipped hams limited the
chances that there would be a ham in the area when such a localized emergency
happened.

In
the 70s, the cb craze took hold and certainly I would expect that cb was
sometimes used to report the accidents. The small number of amateurs would
preclude them being involved very often in such a situation.

I disagree on that last point. That same time period was the boom time for
amateur repeaters and autopatching. At least in the areas I'm familiar with,
such service by hams was very common.

Voilla, cb is
more important than ham radio.

Certainly more numerous in those times. Questionable today, though.

Fast-forward to today. Cell phones are likely the primary means of
reporting those accidents. Who needs the hams? Some hams will say "who
needs cb?"

As long as the cell phones are avaialble, they are obviously the preferred
method because anyone so equipped can push 911 and report directly.

A lot of folks state that amateur radio isn't a service; it's just a hobby.

That's a roundabout way of saying that a bunch of things.

Few take into account how fragile that infrastructure of cell phones,
telephones, and internet can be when a large area is affected. That nasty
ice storm in the North East (was it 1997?)

Yes

affected areas for hundreds of
miles. There were no cell phones as the cell phone towers went silent after
power had been out for days. No electricty, no heat, no telephones for
hundreds of miles. A relative of mine in Gouverneur, NY, had no heat,
power, or telephone for two *weeks*!!!

That storm also involved damage that close roads and made simple things like
getting fuel for generators very difficult.

One amateur repeater was pressed into service for the police. I do not know
if the repeater was reprogrammed or they simply moved the police repeater to
the amateur site. The amateur site withstood the ice and they had generator
backup with a *lot* of fuel available.

If it happens, it must be possible.

I don't think it is as important "how" something is done as opposed to the
fact that it gets done. If someone is assisting at a shelter cooking meals,
that individual is *doing* something. That, to me, is more important than
all of the useless crying that goes on around these parts from time to time
;)

I agree 100%!

But some folks deny *any* significant contribution by amateurs.

BTW, during that ice storm, the calls were going out for batteries,
flashlights, generators, blankets, food, coffee, and mobile amateur
operators with HF capabilities. If you have nothing working for well over
100 miles in the N.E. U.S. and Canada, you will likely not get it done on
VHF/UHF or cb.

And during that storm, significant traffic was passed by CW because it was the
*only available mode* that would get through.

Some more data points from this area (suburban Philadelphia):

- A heavy snowstorm dumped about a foot of snow on the area one day. The
weatherfolk simply messed up, and did not predict anything like what really
happened. While there were no major problems involving loss of life or
property, many vehicles and people were stuck or seriously delayed, including
school buses full of kids. One of the first "casualties" of the storm was cell
phones, which were simply overwhelmed by the enormous volume of calls.

- Hurricane Isabel pounded through here some months ago and left hundreds of
thousands without power, and in some cases telephone service. Some if us were
out for days. The interesting thing about Isabel was that the outages were very
local in nature - one side of the street had power, the other did not, etc.
Some folks lost power *after* the storm because repair crews had to turn off
the power to a larger area to fix downed poles and lines. Cell phone coverage
was better than during the snow storm but unreliable. Again, no major problems
involving loss of life or property, but the cell system capacity was
overwhelmed at times.

73 de Jim, N2EY

In article , Mike Coslo
writes:


Were you ever at a party and trying to talk to the adults while some 5
year old was running around pestering people just to get attention?

Sure. And such behavior is not limited to 5 year olds, either.

Giving such behavior adult attention reeards it, and the result will be more of
the same. That's true whether the behavior is by a 5 year old or someone 14.2
times 5 years old.

73 de Jim, N2EY

Len Over 21 wrote:


My home is quite restful, thank you. My wife likes it, too. But,
it is not a "resthome"...2000 square feet, 1/3 acre, worth at
least $350K on the market.

If that's all you can get for $350k no wonder you are in such a snit all
the time.

Steve Robeson, K4CAP wrote:



All phones I saw in the EOC, othr than the aforementioned
"cordless" phones were hardline.

Must come as quite a shock to lennyboy and willie, especially since
Amateur Radio seems to occupy a prominent place.

On Sun, 21 Mar 2004 14:04:25 -0700, JJ wrote:

Len Over 21 wrote:


My home is quite restful, thank you. My wife likes it, too. But,
it is not a "resthome"...2000 square feet, 1/3 acre, worth at
least $350K on the market.

If that's all you can get for $350k no wonder you are in such a snit all
the time.

In that part of L.A. one is lucky to get a two-hole outhouse for
$350K.

--
73 de K2ASP - Phil Kane

From a Clearing in the Silicon Forest
Beaverton (Washington County) Oregon

On Sun, 21 Mar 2004 14:06:00 -0700, JJ wrote:

Steve Robeson, K4CAP wrote:



All phones I saw in the EOC, othr than the aforementioned
"cordless" phones were hardline.

Must come as quite a shock to lennyboy and willie, especially since
Amateur Radio seems to occupy a prominent place.

'specially since in all the command post exercises that our area
hospitals have run in the last few years both landline and regular
commercial radio circuits are turned off for at least an hour and
ham rado - voice, packet, and SSTV - carried the load.

Very successfully, may I add.

--
73 de K2ASP - Phil Kane

From a Clearing in the Silicon Forest
Beaverton (Washington County) Oregon

On 21 Mar 2004 20:58:48 GMT, N2EY wrote:

That storm also involved damage that close roads and made simple things like
getting fuel for generators very difficult.

Was the "Piped" natural gas delivery interrupted? I'm a huge fan of
"piped gas" fueled gensets rather than stored propane, CNG, or diesel.

--
73 de K2ASP - Phil Kane

From a Clearing in the Silicon Forest
Beaverton (Washington County) Oregon

Phil Kane wrote:

On Sun, 21 Mar 2004 14:06:00 -0700, JJ wrote:


Steve Robeson, K4CAP wrote:



All phones I saw in the EOC, othr than the aforementioned
"cordless" phones were hardline.

Must come as quite a shock to lennyboy and willie, especially since
Amateur Radio seems to occupy a prominent place.


'specially since in all the command post exercises that our area
hospitals have run in the last few years both landline and regular
commercial radio circuits are turned off for at least an hour and
ham rado - voice, packet, and SSTV - carried the load.

Very successfully, may I add.

There now you go, upsetting all the anti-ham crowd who can't manage to
get a license, so the best they can do is attempt to discredit what they
can't be a part of.

"Len Over 21" wrote in message
...

Well, next time that happens, send me an aid request via NTS.
I'll put together a CARE package for you with an extra can of
Sterno so you won't be too cold. Ought to arrive in two months;
takes 7 weeks to get the NTS message through...allow for
sufficient time.

Baaaaaaaaa Ha Ha Ha Ha!!!!

Even Glen "Bull****ter" Baxter's IARN is faster than NTS.

Send in those IARN jump teams boys! -and while your
at it, we have this new Membership premium for
just $49.95....and if you act now, we'll throw in a
bamboo steamer too as our free gift to U !

In article ,
(William) writes:

(Len Over 21) wrote in message
...
In article ,
(Steve Robeson, K4CAP) writes:

YOU made the assertion that "unlicensed services play a "major"
role in emergency comms".

Brian did not use those words.

I've asked you three or four times now to substantiate your
claims. YOUR claims, Brain...cited word-for-word, repeated by you
several times.

You've demanded, taken things out of context, edited words
to suit your "charges."

You "respond" by telling me I am rude and obnoxious.

You are.

and emotionally unbalanced.

That's unfortunate. All of the "communications" in this newsgroup
have become a battleground of personal egos of the regulars. Many
come unglued at the slightest hint of disagreement with their
postings.

Any time an actual subject of "amateur radio policy" comes up, the
ones with personal opinions MUST be taken as the ultimate truth
of the matter. Anyone with different ideas are damned and persons
insulted for not agreeing with them. It's a constant verbal firefight
with large depots of outrage ammunition fired at will (and any other
name). Then they become oh-so-badly "wounded" when subjected
to return fire. Some remain "wounded" for years and constantly
butt in to seek retribution. The subjects are long lost in the mis-
direction of satisfying their personal vengence.

It sure as heck is no recruiting station for support or growth of
amateur radio. Maybe for the WWF? :-)

LHA / WMD

In article ,
(Steve Robeson, K4CAP) writes:

(Len Over 21) wrote in message
...
In article , "Jim Hampton"
writes:

Hello, Steve

I think I have figured out the real problem behind most of the flames both
in this group and rec.radio.cb. I might be wrong, but it appears everyone
is trying to defend that their particular turf is "important" and someone
else's is not.

...more likely just defending their own pesonna, but why spoil your
nice rant?

Now Lennie get's to tell us how Jim's comments, otehr than not
being approved by him, are a "rant"...

Fast-forward to today. Cell phones are likely the primary means of
reporting those accidents. Who needs the hams? Some hams will say "who
needs cb?"

A lot of folks state that amateur radio isn't a service; it's just a
hobby.

Amateurs are all there to SERVE as "emergency minutemen!"

Right.

Lennie the Loser is trying to argue a point Jim's making that
actually echoes some of HIS sentiments...

How perculiar.

Perambulate your personal perspective, but don't pester us
particularly with poorly percolated petty pesterings promoted as
a perspicatious presentation when it is really perseverance of
persiflage. Ptui.

"Perculiar" indeed. :-)

Few take into account how fragile that infrastructure of cell phones,
telephones, and internet can be when a large area is affected.

Riiight...on 11 Sep 01 the entire borough of Manhattan went down
after the Attack on the WTC towers...?

Ham radio was Johnny-on-the-spot immediately notifying all?

Lennie...Jim said "the infrastructure is ftagile".

It's already been proven as just that.

Can YOU "prove" otherwise, other than making snide or insinuating
personal swipes at the folks commementing here...!??!

I already have, re the 11 Sep 01 Attack on America, in specific the
partial destruction of both the Manhattan Emergency Communication
Center and part of the telephone trunk lines adjacent to the WTC
towers. Regardless, the entire telephone system (cellular telephone
included) of the borough of Manhattan was NOT shut down.

At the Pentagon in Washington, DC, the third hijacked aircraft crash
did not disrupt any cellular telephone system in DC. The crash did
inflict great damage to one-fifth of the Pentagon along with much
loss of life, but the architecture of the Pentagon is low relative to the
WTC towers and personal escape routes are much shorter for near-
crash-site inhabitants. The Pentagon's internal fire and damage
control network (installed the year before) worked well from a planned
alternate control point to shut off utilities and thus restrain any further
spread of fire damage. Such a system was not possible in the WTC
towers when the entire structure was put at overstress.

All of the above information has been widely published in the popular
press. So too are general informations about the telephone infra-
structure with associated cellular telephone service -

Telephone circuits for conventional subscription service route through
switch centers. Switch centers permit a subscriber to "dial" direct
to any other telephone; several centers are involved in "dialings" out-
side of area codes or to other countries. Switching is limited by
economic factors to a fraction of the maximum possible subscriber
base, somewhere just less than ten percent for older, obsolete
electromechanical switching; maximum may be larger in ESS or
Electronic Switching System central offices. Ergo, all subscribers
cannot be on-line at the same time; switch centers refuse to accept
off-hook (handset lifted or cell phone On/Talk) subscribers on
exceedance of maximum numbers. Reaching exceedance of
maximums does not cause an ESS to fail; normal operation returns
automatically when fewer subscribers access the system. Telephone
central offices have had emergency electrical power facilities since
before WW2 in the USA; such emergency power is not limitless in
operating time and is, like switch traffic capacity, governed by
economics in normal operation.

In the old "Bell System" monopoly (a most generous one despite the
complaints and government actions for so long), the technical
excellence and robustness of the U.S. telephone infrastructure was
exceptional - and known worldwide. Cellular sites for the cellular
telephone service are themselves small extensions of each central
office complex. Running (usually) unattended, they also have
emergency electrical power backup. Again, like the central office,
such emergency electrical power capacity and life is limited by
economic factors of normal use. As Phil Kane pointed out, the
deregulation of the U.S. telephone system resulted in several local
telephone companies downgrading capacity and service of certain
types of emergency power, particularly at cell sites. Cellular
telephone service arrived after the big telephone deregulation so
there is no example of comparison as to what it might have been
had the old Bell System remained a virtual monopoly.

NO structure is immune to physical damage whether from fire or
ice-accumulation or collision. That includes both governmental
structures as well as individual amateur radio station locations.
In general, the government structures are designed to be more
robust than residences so, on the whole, they can withstand more
environmental abuse. In the old Bell System, most equipment,
including overhead cables was designed, made, and installed for
a minimum working life of two decades. Some things for longer.
Such telephone life expectancy has been proven in-use several
times over. This does not apply to subscriber terminal equipment
which can be (optionally after deregulation) of consumer
electronics quality. However, the state of the art of solid-state
electronic devices has increased the mean time between failure
rates of complex consumer electronics devices...it is no longer
possible to judge electronics devices' life merely by physical
appearance to the naked eye.

Cell sites service areas are located and designed to overlap
adjacent cells. The amount of overlap depends on decisions in
intial location plus uncontrollable changes in structures and,
sometimes, rarely, in earth moving within a service area.
Cellular service is not guaranteed to be perfect as in wireline
telephony but it is quite good considering the frequency (1 GHz)
and quite low power of a cell handset. Those handsets are
basically little two-way radios. Just the same, their usefulness
in normal life has been proven to the extent that more than
100 million cellular service subscriptions had been taken out
by users in 2003 according to the Census Bureau's interim
report of early 2004. That is approximately one cell phone per
every three citizens.

Depending on a particular telephone company, cell sites can
be arranged to automatically change over to link with a different
central office or to connect with their main through microwave
radio relay (some are linked only by microwave). There is no
set rule on that and it is dependent on the local telephone
company. As it is, they are quite reliable, almost to the extent
of the wireline POTS (Plain Old Telephone System). Reliability
of cell handsets is left up to individual subscribers.

All in all, the amazing growth of cellular telephony in the last
quarter century is phenomenal, especially considering the
operating frequency (low L-Band) and the cost reduction,
typically below that of an amateur average HT. It is not a
perfect solution to emergency communications but it is used
daily throughout the USA for many and varied small
emergencies. To discount it or sneer at its usefulness is folly.

Was anyone knocking the state of New York? (or New Yourk?)

I don't think so.

You have. You've "knocked" everything west of the Owens Valley.

No. I've tried to point out that the population of the United States
also exists in the western states. The center of population has
been steadily moving westward since 1790 (then somewhere in
Maryland) and in 1990 was located 9.7 miles NW of Steelville,
Missouri (source: U.S. Census Bureau). That point is west of the
Mississippi river.

I tend to promote California, yes, for several reasons: It is the
most populous state of the Union as well as being in the top 10
for land area (size is 9/10ths that of Sweden and full auto trip
north-south takes two 7-hour driving days to complete); this
state has an operating budget larger than many foreign
countries and is dynamic in commerce and trade as the main
U.S. gateway to Asia for that; the major aircraft and solid-state
electronics corporations started here and most prospered (see
Lockheed, North American, Ryan, Douglas, Vultee, Northrup
complexes here plus the "Silicon Valley" and Hewlett-Packard
and Intel for electronics).

You wouldn't help your wife by passing in a roll of toilet paper,
Lennie.

Putz.

Is being insulting, rude, obnoxious, and resorting to toilet humor
considerd "civil amateur behavior?" Certainly not, yet you seem
to do nothing else in here.

LHA / WMD

In article , "Phil Kane"
writes:

All phones I saw in the EOC, othr than the aforementioned
"cordless" phones were hardline.

Must come as quite a shock to lennyboy and willie, especially since
Amateur Radio seems to occupy a prominent place.

'specially since in all the command post exercises that our area
hospitals have run in the last few years both landline and regular
commercial radio circuits are turned off for at least an hour and
ham rado - voice, packet, and SSTV - carried the load.

Very successfully, may I add.

Good for your area! At least that was a practical test with results,
not some pointing-finger posturing.

LHA / WMD

In article , PAMNO
(N2EY) writes:

Sure. And such behavior is not limited to 5 year olds, either.

Giving such behavior adult attention reeards it, and the result will be more
of
the same. That's true whether the behavior is by a 5 year old or someone 14.2
times 5 years old.

Poor baby. Someone got you in a spiteful state, did they? :-)

Did you get your just "reeards?"

LHA / WMD

In article , "Phil Kane"
writes:

On Sun, 21 Mar 2004 14:04:25 -0700, JJ wrote:

Len Over 21 wrote:

My home is quite restful, thank you. My wife likes it, too. But,
it is not a "resthome"...2000 square feet, 1/3 acre, worth at
least $350K on the market.

If that's all you can get for $350k no wonder you are in such a snit all
the time.

In that part of L.A. one is lucky to get a two-hole outhouse for
$350K.

More toilet humor, Phil? :-)

Where do you think "this part of L.A." actually is? It is far from
Brentwood or Beverly Hills. Try Zip code 91352.

So, while your attention is here, why does the FCC have TWO
docket places for NPRM 04-29...04-29 and 04-37? How come
the comments on 03-104 have Sunshine notices only for the
period 6 Feb through 20 Feb. All the FCC feeds me is boiler-
plate Q&A files. Maybe you can shed some light on that?

LHA / WMD

N2EY wrote:
In article , "Jim Hampton"
writes:


If you go back into the 50s and 60s, amateur radio served quite well for
long-haul phone patches and in emergencies.


Service in emergencies goes back much farther, of course.


Very localized emergencies,
such as an auto accident would largely be reported by normal telephone.


Also by hams equipped with mobile rigs if telephone was not immediately
available.. This is documented all the way back to the beginning of mobile
operation by hams. Of course, the number of mobile-equipped hams limited the
chances that there would be a ham in the area when such a localized emergency
happened.


In
the 70s, the cb craze took hold and certainly I would expect that cb was
sometimes used to report the accidents. The small number of amateurs would
preclude them being involved very often in such a situation.


I disagree on that last point. That same time period was the boom time for
amateur repeaters and autopatching. At least in the areas I'm familiar with,
such service by hams was very common.


Voilla, cb is
more important than ham radio.


Certainly more numerous in those times. Questionable today, though.


Fast-forward to today. Cell phones are likely the primary means of
reporting those accidents. Who needs the hams? Some hams will say "who
needs cb?"


As long as the cell phones are avaialble, they are obviously the preferred
method because anyone so equipped can push 911 and report directly.

I think this may be the confusion here also. A cell phone is great for
localized small-scale problems. If everyone has one, then of course they
will be great for calling 911. An accident happens and likely the next
person ther will have a cell phone. One of the best reasons for having
one of the otherwise evil little devices.

As the scale of problems gets bigger, then they become of less use,
their usefulness being inversely proportional to the scale of the problem.

Eventually, the cellular concept falls apart because of the massive
support structure needed for the instruments use, and that often the
same disasters that make emergency comms necessary take out that
infrastucture.

I recall the pictures from the wildfires in San Diego last year showing
people trying to use their cell phones without success. The look on many
faces was one of surprise that the things weren't working.

- Mike KB3EIA -