In article , PAMNO
(N2EY) writes:

In article ,
(Len Over 21) writes:

In article ,

(N2EY) writes:

In article ,

(Len Over 21) writes:

In article ,

(N2EY) writes:

In article , Robert Casey
writes:

Hams - old and new - didn't change the exam procedures. Neither did
ARRL, NCI, NCVEC or any other ham group. FCC did, because it saved
them resources.

We aren't going to a system other than multiple-choice
published-Q&A-pool exams in the foreseeable future. Just not gonna
happen.

ANd then there's the question of what knowledge should be expected from
applicants anyway. Does it really require more knowledge and skill to
operate on 14.167 vs 14.344?

More spectrum is simply the reward system in use. It was chosen in large
part
because it's easy to enforce.

Nonsense for the new millennium.

That's what you're giving us, Len!

Now, now Rev. Jim. You're off on an evangelical Sermon on the
Antenna Mount again!

Who is this "Rev. Jim" person you keep mentioing, Len?

Tsk. You see him every time you look into a mirror. :-)

You just didn't answer the question I posed about "enforcement
ease." Tsk. tsk. tsk.

Yes, I did, Len.

No, you did NOT.

Tell us how morse signals are "easier to enforce" than voice
signals. Try a few details of how that is done.

Why?

To establish your bona-fides. You've made a wild-hair statement
and its illogical.

Not very professional of you. Tsk.

The separate, elite morsemen-only portions of the ham bands were
put there by old morsemen who were able to influence League
lobbying.

Len, what are "morsemen"?

An elite band of beepers stuck in a time warp of yesteryear.

Amateurs, of course.

So all radio amateurs are morsemen?

Only the beeping bleeping amateurs are morsemen.

The rest of the radio world has given up morse code modes for any
primary communications. Most other radio services never even
considered it!

So you think radio amateurs should stop using Morse code?

No. The FCC should stop TESTING for morse code cognition.

And if you're talking about how the bands got carved up into Extra-only,
Advanced-and-Extra-only, and General-and-above subbands, that wasn't an
ARRL idea at all. It came from elsewhere.

What is this "easy to enforce" nonsense?

It's not nonsense at all, Len.

So...answer how it is "easy."

I'll explain it again.

If a ham tries to exceed license privileges by operating on frequencies not
licensed to that ham, all that has to be done is measure the operating
frequency and identify the source.

Riiiiight...and that lets the FCC know EXACTLY who is doing it
and where, right? :-)

Do you really think others are THAT dumb, Rev. Jim?

The FCC reads morse
easier than it can voice? [I don't think so] Can the FCC DF on
OOK-CW signals "easier" than voice signals? [I don't think so]

The easy to enforce *fact* is that it's simple to check the frequency of a
signal against the license class. It's not nearly so easy to verify things
like power level.

Oh, yeah, the Magick of Morse!

Applies to all modes.

Riiiiight..."real" hams ALWAYS identify honestly, never ever fib or
do nasty. :-)

All morsemen are superbly honest and without fault...would not
dream of falsifying anything, would they?

How could they?

BWWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!

When was the last time FCC had to do some enforcement on a ham using Morse
code?

1935? :-) :-) :-) :-)


Hello? Ever hear of audio recorders? Those have been around
since WW2. Really. More modern stuff than wire recorders
nowadays, old timer. Combine that with modern DF techniques
(no rotating loop antennas required) and modern data recorders
and ANY signal can be found out.

An audio recorder doesn't tell what radio frequency is being used.

The data sub-carrier signal will have it recorded. Telemetry
recorders carry all sorts of information...those can even record
the DF information from the DF equipment.

All of the morsemen's propaganda is just spin to keep their little
morse playground. No more, no less.

What are you talking about, Len?

YOUR spin on morse code. And the Belief System of the Church
of St. Hiram.

What *are* you talking about, Len?

Heresy. :-)

The only Morse-code-only segments of US amateur radio are the lowest 100
kHz
of 6 and 2 meters. Open to all hams except Novices.

WE weren't talking about "morse code only" stuff, Rev. Jim.

Who is "we", Len?

Me & you. You have lots of alternate personalities like your
butt-in buddy, the Stalker?

[got some bad peyote again? tsk]

Never touched the stuff. You sound like ol' Carlos, though.

Carlos who?


I guess you can't rise to the challenge, then. You're just here to spout
nonsense and abuse.

Your terms. :-)

Anything said against morse code is, in your terms, "nonsense and
abuse."

We readers all KNOW that. Quit stating the obvious.


What you want is for opposing opinions to simply shut up. You can't tolerate
anyone who disagrees with your cherished beliefs. Even worse for you is when
someone proves you are simply wrong about something.

Poor Jimmie. Writing while looking into a mirror again.

Another one working his way into a delusional psychosis...thinks a
different idea to his "factual beliefs" is heresy. Poor Jim.

How's the olde time mashine working these days?

LHA / WMD

In article ,
(Len Over 21) writes:


More spectrum is simply the reward system in use. It was chosen in large
part
because it's easy to enforce.

Not only was it easy to enforce but it was selected because it was a
desireable enough reward that people would put in the training to get it.

Utter nonsense, Mama Dee. Spin-like rationalization.

That's a good description of what you post here, Len ;-) ;-) ;-)

Only to the PCTA.

Nope. To anyone who knows the facts.

AMATEUR radio is a hobby, not a national service, not an arm of the
United States Navy or the rest of the military, and not a public safety
organization. Just a hobby involving radio.

It's not "just a hobby".

For some it IS a lifestyle. Their problem, not the governments.

Why is it a "problem"?

So, amateur radio is NOT a hobby?

It's not *just* a hobby.

Would you tell volunteer firefighters and EMTs that what they do is "just a
hobby"?

Prove its vital need to the nation as a national service or an arm of
the military or a public safety organization.

Why? Is that the criteria for something to be more than "just a hobby"?

The FCC hasn't proved that. Only the ham-lifestylers try to prove
that. They NEED the rationalization.

So what's your problem?

But even if it were, what's the difference? If something is "just a hobby",
does that mean there should be no standards, no training, no rules?

Tsk, tsk. Arguing to extemes again?

No. Just asking a question.

What should the standards be?

The FCC isn't chartered to do "training" for radio hams.

Actually, it is.

The FCC doesn't really "set standards," only sets regulations.

Wrong again!

AMATEUR radio long ago CEASED to be a "pool of experienced morse
operators" for any national need.

The description never included the word "Morse", Len.

When did it cease, Len?

Long ago. :-)

When, exactly?

Find all the military morsemen "needs" you can. That be easy, as
there are no such needs.

Find all the commercial communications services you can, count
the "needs" for morsemen. Very few and those be on the Great
Lakes shipping.

What's your point, Len?

And here's a fun fact: The Basis and Purpose never used the phrase
"experienced
morse operators". Just "experienced operators" - no mention of modes.

The nation does NOT need morse operators, haven't for a long time.

How long?

Long time. :-)

You don't know, then.

Most rewards in the real world have little relationship to the work
requested.

More spin crappola.

Well, at least you're honest about your content ;-) ;-) ;-) ;-)

Tsk, tsk. Not nice.

No, you're not nice at all, Len. ;-) ;-) ;-) ;-) ;-) ;-) ;-)

Rather nasty comment for a portentious
revered one of the Great Gurus of the newsgrope.

Describing yourself, I see.

The influential morsemen at the League
managed to carve out a separate little morse playground for
themselves with all sorts of fatuous phrases of "national need" and
"importance of a pool of trained operators" and the FCC caved in
to their demands.

When was this? And in what alternate universe?

In the present universe.

Nope. Didn't happen that way.

Those who are busy spinning can't believe it.

Why should anyone believe something that isn't true?

The "pool of trained operators" thing came from FCC, not ARRL.

No kidding? I thought you thought the ARRL regulated all
things in ham radio.

You're wrong. Again.

Learn somethin' every day! Sunnuvagun!

See?

You see it in the home too. Kid asks, "Dad can I borrow the
car?" Parent replies, "After you mow the front & back lawn and run the
edger." There is absolutely no relationship between the two activities.
The kid gets a highly desired reward for work that he/she probably doesn't
care to do but does it anyway to get the reward.

So, the League is a surrogate parent?!? I don't think so.

How many kids have you raised, Len?

On July 4th, two of them. :-)

Right...;-) ;-)


Are all the Amateur Extras surrogate parents now? I don't think so.

You aren't.

Haven't pretended to be, Rev. Jim.

Who is "Rev. Jim"?

You talk to everyone that way, Len. Doesn't work.

You ARE going to misdirect into some "parenting" argument, aren't
you? [your sort of newsgrope tactic]

Nope. It's a valid analogy. Which is why you don't like it.

Dee, quit this infernal nattering about "parentage" and ham radio.

Why, Len? Because it's really quite an accurate analogy?

Who said it is "accurate?"

Me.

You ham lifestylers really get too, too deep into it.

Says who?

Quit trying to sound off like you've got an influential pair.

Pair of what, Len?

Brain halves.

You aren't
a radioactive au pair and this ain't the Children's Hour (even is some
of
the other extras act like children).

The most childish performance I see here is yours, Len.

Then you don't see at all well. Visit an eye doctor for a checkup.

I see fine, Len.

Poor baby. I upset your little session with butt-in buddy, the
Stalker?

Who?

Just face the reality of the matter. Morsemen got their little CW
playground and should be happy.

What *are* you talking about, Len?

The LOWER parts of the HF bands.

You mean the parts where voice modes aren't allowed? Guess what - they're all
wide open for data modes, too. What's the problem?

Professional communicators they
ain't, even if they want, desperately, to be oh, so very pro.

If you're an example of "professional communicator", than I'm glad to be an
amateur.

You are NOT a professional communicator.

Never claimed to be.

You're neither are a professional communicator nor an amateur radio operator,
Len. Just some guy who likes to flame amateur radio newsgroups.

You're on the outside looking in.

Subject: FCC Morse testing at 16 and 20 WPM
From: (Len Over 21)
Date: 7/16/2004 5:02 PM Central Standard Time
Message-id:

Poor obsessed, delusional nursie. Can't imagine that anyone
else doesn't like the Stalking Mighty Macho Morseman. Thinks
all who say negative to nursie are all pseudonyms of me.

They usually ARE you, Lennie.

My filter had 29 messages in it today...all of them except one was you and
Brain back-slapping each other with quotes like the one above.

Nice job...Real "professional".

Putz.

Steve, K4YZ

Subject: FCC Morse testing at 16 and 20 WPM
From: (William)
Date: 7/16/2004 5:23 PM Central Standard Time
Message-id:

(N2EY) wrote in message
...
In article ,

(Len Over 21) writes:

AMATEUR radio is a hobby, not a national service, not an arm of the
United States Navy or the rest of the military, and not a public safety
organization. Just a hobby involving radio.

It's not "just a hobby".

It is for most of the participants.

And you have deduced this from WHAT valid research?

But even if it were, what's the difference? If something is "just a hobby",
does that mean there should be no standards, no training, no rules?

The FCC does not mandate training, does not mandate operating. It
simply has a mechanism in place for VEC's to examine applicants, for
the issuance and renewal of licenses, publication of regulations, and
rarely issues a citation.

The FCC DOES mandate "training"...IF you want a license you will have
to participate in a certain amount of training...

The FCC does not run contests, sprints, DXCC, field days, or nets.

Whoa! Brain woke up for a few minutes!

AMATEUR radio long ago CEASED to be a "pool of experienced morse
operators" for any national need.

When did it cease, Len?

"long ago"

When did it cease Brian? Back when you were operating from Somalia?

Or was it when unlicensed devices started playing a "major role" in
"emergency comms"...?!?!

And here's a fun fact: The Basis and Purpose never used the phrase
"experienced
morse operators". Just "experienced operators" - no mention of modes.

So the Basis and Purpose never emphasized (favored) one mode over
another.

Wonder where that come from?

Why would you wonder?

It's been almos the same language as long as I have been licensed.

The nation does NOT need morse operators, haven't for a long time.

How long?

"a long time"

PuppetBoy strikes again.

Jim, did you realize that a code exam is a disincentive to CW use?

Brain, did you know there are people on 6 and 2 meters USING Morse Code
who DIDN'T take an FCC test to do so...?!?!

Steve, K4YZ

In article , "Dee D. Flint"
writes:

Most rewards in the real world have little relationship to the work
requested. You see it in the home too. Kid asks, "Dad can I borrow the
car?" Parent replies, "After you mow the front & back lawn and run the
edger." There is absolutely no relationship between the two activities.

Actually, there is a relationship - or connection might be a better word.

Connection would be the better term I think since the activities are
unrelated in what they are.

OK

You're right that driving a car doesn't require lawn-mowing skills or
accomplishments.

But in the case cited above, Kid is part of the family. In order to use
the
family's resources (the car, which Parents bought and paid for) Kid has to
contribute something - in the cited case, the lawn care. The relationship
between the car use and the lawn care is one of responsibility and being
part of a group.

Excellent. We can apply that similar logic to amateur radio requirements.
The spectrum is a public resource. The prospective ham needs to demonstrate
that he has the potential to be a contributor.

And also the needed knowledge.

This is accomplished by the
testing process. The connection is then similar: demonstrating the
potential for responsibility and being part of a larger group. Notice that
I tag it as potential since there will always be a few who are willing to
put in the effort but then end up being problems.

It's not about putting in the effort but about demonstrating the requisite
knowledge. And said knowledge will include things that may not involve areas
the potential ham is interested in, but are required nonetheless because they
are part of the knowledge base of a radio amateur.

Now some folks say "I'm a professional/EE/technician" as if that somehow
exempts them from having to pass certain tests. But it doesn't work that way,
nor should it. If someone from outside amateur radio is truly qualified, the
tests are no big deal.

Have you ever seen a family where the kids are given everything they want
but not required to contribute anything? Ever see what sort of adults those
kids become?

The kid gets a highly desired reward for work that he/she probably
doesn't care to do but does it anyway to get the reward.

The important question is, who is the best judge of what the requirements
should be? The newcomer or the experienced ham?

73 de Jim, N2EY

"N2EY" wrote in message
...
[snip]
The important question is, who is the best judge of what the requirements
should be? The newcomer or the experienced ham?


That is the very crux of the problem. Somehow too many have lost sight of
the fact that those with experience should be the ones to define the
requirements.

Dee D. Flint, N8UZE

N2EY wrote:

In article , Mike Coslo
writes:


The exact process I used for getting my license was:

First I took an online test. First couple times did just awful. In both
General and Extra, I started out at about the 50 percent level.


That's really pretty good for a start, with no preparation.


Downloaded the question pool. Used it as reading material on the throne
and around the house. But mostly as a post-test reference


Did you highlight the right answers or black out the wrong ones?

Neither!

Continued taking the online tests. For every question I got wrong on
the tests, I researched out the answer. Sources were reference books and
the 'net.


Yep.

Continued until I scored 100 percent pretty consistently.


And the actual test was a breeze, right?

Wasn't too bad.


What you did was to 'study the test'. Which isn't "wrong" or illegal, despite
what some may rant about it. You did what worked for you, within the rules.

Here's the thing, Jim. I can still remember the right answers. So did I
learn the material?

Which do you *really* think requires more understanding of the mateiral and
the
concepts behind it - a test where you don't know the exact Q&A beforehand,
or one where you do?

All the same to me.

Really?


Well, as in the above comment, the method worked for me

And I think my method above says something more.
Being smart is not necessarily knowing something - it is knowing what
you know, knowing what you don't know, and knowing where to get the
answer so you *do* know.


Kinda like the difference between schooling and education.


If you make questions up, you have to have a
reference for them someplace. Is it in a book? fine, study the book
then. Is it a question pool? Fine also.

*If* you only care about right answers rather than understanding.

Not really. I saw a electrician licensing test book with question pool
recently. Lives depend on the electrician doing safe and proper work.
and they are depending on the Electrician knowing.


But someone cannot become a licensed electrician by written tests alone. There
are extensive practical tests and experience requirements as well, and several
levels of licensing. IIRC, here in PA it takes 9000 hours of documented work
experience under the supervision of a licensed electrician to be licensed at
the highest level.

Sure, but if you flunk the test, question pool and all, then you
aren't an electrician. 9000 hours of training aside.


Rote memorization? Seriously if anyone rote memorizes the General and
Extra tests, they are very intelligent and very stupid at the same time.



Depends on the person and the subject. In some areas, the only way to know
the
material is rote memorization. (How long is a ham license term?)

Of course, but that is diluting the issue. No other way to learn that
stuff.


The problem is that more and more of the test is becoming "that stuff".


And they will have a few curves thrown at them at test time.

How? The test questions are all in the pool. Read the pool and you have
seen every possible question and answer.

All my tests have been from the question pool, so it is something I
have some advantage over many people here. Actual knowledge rather than
opinion.


I take a simulated test every so often just to maintain an even strain.


The answers are not always in the same order as they are in the pool. I
experienced this in my Extra test. And if the person knows the text of
the answer, they almost certainly *know* the answer. That takes a level
of understanding much greater than "This question's answer is "D"

How much different is that than reading a book?

Nobody with any sense memorizes the answer letters! But being able to know
which answer is right after having seen the exact Q&A several times before
doesn't guarantee any level of understanding.

For example, I could ask:

- Which of the following are blunatrons? (Flufnagles, zinthorps, calinars,
rhenotors)

A) Fluffnagles and rhenotors only
B) Zinthorps only
C) Calinars and zinthorps only
D) Calinars, zinthorps and fluffnagles

(Of course the correct answer is C)

Your not going to catch me in a trick question, Mr. Micollis! Zinthorps
only exist at a temperature of absolute zero, and even then it's only a
theory!..........

Now, if you remember that calinars and zinthorps are blunatrons but fluffnagles
and rhenotors aren't, you'll always get the question right. But do you really
understand anything about blunatrons?


Heck, download the pool as a Word or text document, edit out the wrong
answers,
print the questions up on 3x5 cards and just read the dern things while in
the room of many doors.

Remember the game "Trivial Pursuit"? When it was a big deal ~20 years ago,
I
used to carry a handful of the cards in my pocket and read them at odd
times
(on the subway, waiting for the elevator, etc.) Didn't consciously try to
memorize them, just read them. I was soon nearly unbeatable - as long as
the game used the Original edition cards.

The question pools have far fewer questions than the Trivial Pursuit cards
did.



A thought: If a question pool is cheating, then a book with the answers
in the test in the course of reading is cheating too



Question pools don't equal cheating unless they are supposed to be
secret.


So...

The only way that *some* Hams will be happy is if the test questions
have answers in no book - that is to say that all testing will have to
be in the form of basic research - the new ham will have to advance the
state of the art in his/her admission test.


bwaaahaahaa



Otherwise the new ham is cheating and isn't as good as the old ham. 8^)


(I just recently had to listen to an old timer in person on a tirade
about the worthless new hams - again.)




Why did you have to listen? I find turning on my heel and walking away
does wonders. Or, looking the ranter straight in the eye and saying,
"You're just wrong...." (lookit how the oldest ranter here on rrap
reacts to being told he's wrong - which he often is....)

Well, it wasn't a case where I could or should have turned away. I
supposed I could have kicked the person out, but I also needed the help
he was giving on a task. Real life has a habit of modifying our
behavior. Plus ut wasn't a personal attack. Most hams I know think I'm a
relative old timer. But its still irritating.


Well, he was just plain wrong. The test is just one part of being

qualified.

Of course. But sometimes we have to work with people that are just
plain wrong.


Yep.

Every once in a while, I'll mention something like "Hey, I resemble
that remark!"



There was an old song called "Patches" that you may recall from high school
days. Man is remembering how tough he had it as a kid. Among the folks I
grew up with, we still use the line

"And then the rains came, and washed all the crops away"

whenever somebody starts geezering.

hehe, I used to do a good rendition of the line after that - "And at
the age of thirteen, I felt I had the weight of the whooole world on my
shoulders" 8^)


"And Mama knew what I was going through..."

That's the one!

It's particularly effective when someone is going on and one about something
like how tough it was to find a parking space, or how long the line at
Starbucks was this morning,

That's how the Republican party got started isn't it? ;^)

and three people do it, one taking each line...



Besides, what it all comes down to is this:

Hams - old and new - didn't change the exam procedures. Neither did
ARRL, NCI, NCVEC or any other ham group. FCC did, because it saved
them resources.

We aren't going to a system other than multiple-choice
published-Q&A-pool exams in the foreseeable future. Just not gonna
happen.

Just a thought here... If we were to say, go to a book oriented
reference for the tests, I can assure you that it would be no better
than the pool based system.

Sure it would. But we're not going to go back to secret tests. Not gonna
happen - at least not anytime soon. Why get in a lather over it?



Thousands and thousands of college students
prove this on a daily basis, pulling all-nighters, cramming to take
their tests. All the crammed knowledge is placed in shirt term memory,
to quickly fade after the test is over.

That only works for some people. And recall that for most of those
students, the cramming is not the only preparation done.


Maybe the answer is to have on on one testing, where the test
administrator comes to love with you for a week, to see if you *really*
have knowledge of Ham radio....hehe.



If the test administrator looks like Heidi Klum, or if I get to be *her*
test
administrator, I'll volunteer to put the system throuigh its paces. Heck,
I'll sign up for two weeks......

Hey, maybe my dum typo was Karma!


I've got dibs on Ms. Klum if she ever needs a ham radio instructor.

Nice lass. Can you believe I had to look her up on the web? Big problem
is the name. I keep thinking of the old story of "Heidi", although the
real one bears no resemblance!!

- Mike KB3EIA -

"William" wrote in message
om...
PAMNO (N2EY) wrote in message
...

The important question is, who is the best judge of what the
requirements
should be? The newcomer or the experienced ham?

73 de Jim, N2EY

Jim, many experienced amateurs have spoken agains the continued use of
the Morse Code as a filter. You ignore them, or say they must be
wrong. Luckily, hams don't decide, necomer or otherwise. The FCC
does, and they see merit in the reasonable arguments put forth by
those experienced hams.

Best of Luck

Please post the URLs of the surveys to back up your claim. How "many?" Is
it a majority or is it just a vocal minority?

So far the FCC has done nothing with the innumerable petitions nor have the
acted unilaterally to implement the change now allowed by the international
treaty. At this point it is premature to say that the FCC sees merit in
either side of the question.

Any intelligent person doesn't consider it a filter. It is simply a useful
element of ham radio that should be maintained. Some of the people against
using it as a filter are for keeping it as a part of the ham's required
knowledge.

Dee D. Flint, N8UZE

Subject: FCC Morse testing at 16 and 20 WPM
From: "Dee D. Flint"
Date: 7/17/2004 10:32 AM Central Standard Time
Message-id:


"N2EY" wrote in message
...
[snip]
The important question is, who is the best judge of what the requirements
should be? The newcomer or the experienced ham?


That is the very crux of the problem. Somehow too many have lost sight of
the fact that those with experience should be the ones to define the
requirements.

But it also needs to be the RIGHT experience.

Lennie the Liar has a lot of "experience" in SOME radio matters, but
zero-point-zero percent of it is as an Amateur Radio licensee. Also
zero-point-zero experience in "emergency communications". His "traffic
handling" experience was as a radio clerk in the Army in the FIFTIES, and his
experience in practical avionics goes back to his days as a STUDENT (never
licensed) pilot back when Lear organ-grinder radios were the "state of the
art".

Would you want HIM making binding decisions for you in regards to Amateur
Radio policy?

When Lennie discusses matters of technical interest I sit up and pay
attention...but that's ALL people like him CAN talk about.

I know people like him in my professional life too...people who can
recite the textbooks and history annals inside and out...but don't have a valid
clue as to HOW to apply what they know. People like that are dangerous.

73

Steve, K4YZ

Subject: FCC Morse testing at 16 and 20 WPM
From: (William)
Date: 7/17/2004 9:50 AM Central Standard Time
Message-id:

(Len Over 21) wrote in message
...
In article ,
(Steve

Some in a position to know your "professional" services directly
quantify
your skills as "mediocre, at best..."

A LIE, nursie. Bald-faced, out and out LIE.

Lennie, you can keep repeating that until you die, but it will not make it
any less true.

Believe it or not, not everyone in your "profession" was enamored with
your knowledge and skill. They certainly weren't enamored with your
personality. Perhaps if you had stepped off of your self-grandizing pedestal
once in a while...?!?!

You don't know squat about the electronics industry or military
electronics or civilian electronics other than reading about ham
radio in QST. YOU DON'T KNOW.

I know more than you care to acknowledge, but that's OK by me.

Now YOU produce those NAMES of the "some" you ALLEGE
"know."

Nope. They spoke to me on assurance that I'd guard thier confidentiality.
That they were career engineers at NADC and had occassion to "know" you is
adequate enough.

You can't because they DON'T EXIST. They are a fermentation of
your hate-filled obsessional, delusional psychosis in here.

Again, you may continue to make that assertion over and over but it will
not make it true. There is nothing "hate-filled" or "obsessional" about having
taken the time to do some research on some of the references YOU provided. I
just lucked up on the right people.

Should have kept your mouth shut, Lennie. You set your own trap.

Get some mental therapy. From a real shrink.

You mean YOUR "evaluation" wasn't adequate...?!?! Your "experience" in
psychiatry is invalid...?!?! Say it isn't so!

It will help everyone, even yourself.

What would "help" here, Lennie, is if you would take it upon yourself to
act your age, stop making assertions and proclamations that are easy to prove
wrong, and actually DO the things you claim you are going to do.

Pbththththth.

My point is made. Thanks for doing it for me.

Len, he's a freak. Stay away. "Danger Will Robinson. Danger!"

And PuppetBoy chimes in...

Steve, K4YZ

In article , PAMNO
(N2EY) writes:


Nope. To anyone who knows the facts.

Who is "anyone?"


Why is it a "problem"?

Because you can't recognize problems.


It's not *just* a hobby.

It's a "service?" :-) Hupp, too, tree, foah!


Would you tell volunteer firefighters and EMTs that what they do is "just a
hobby"?

Don't know any. Out here they are all professionals!

Sunnuvagun!


Why? Is that the criteria for something to be more than "just a hobby"?

What is "that?"


So what's your problem?

I don't have a problem. You do. Why?


No. Just asking a question.

Are you sure? :-)


What should the standards be?

National Electrical Code.


Actually, it is.

What is?


Wrong again!

Anyone with a different opinion than the "Right" Rev. Jim is,
naturally, "wrong!" :-)


The description never included the word "Morse", Len.

What description?


When, exactly?

1844?


What's your point, Len?

Index finger extended in line of direction to object, other
fingers curled.


You don't know, then.

Don't know what?


No, you're not nice at all, Len. ;-) ;-) ;-) ;-) ;-) ;-) ;-)

Sunnuvagun!


Describing yourself, I see.

Who?


Nope. Didn't happen that way.

What way?


Why should anyone believe something that isn't true?

Because...you will send long, long replies like a poor
man's CSI autopsy... :-)


You're wrong. Again.

Always...to Rev. Jim.


See?

See what?


Right...;-) ;-)

Impossible! Rev. Jim says I am "always wrong!"


Who is "Rev. Jim"?

Jimmie Who. Right! I Dunno is on second base?


You talk to everyone that way, Len. Doesn't work.

I'm retired. Don't need to work.


Nope. It's a valid analogy. Which is why you don't like it.

What analogy? Why don't I like it?



Me.

You.


Says who?

Jimmie Who?



I see fine, Len.

Irving Fine or Julius Fine?


Who?

Right, Jimmie Who!


You mean the parts where voice modes aren't allowed? Guess what - they're all
wide open for data modes, too. What's the problem?

What parts? What is wide open? Why is there a problem?


Never claimed to be.

Claimed to be what?


You're neither are a professional communicator nor an amateur radio operator,
Len. Just some guy who likes to flame amateur radio newsgroups.

Flame? Smoke detector didn't go off. Did you go off?


You're on the outside looking in.

No. Inside. Looking at the screen of my Samsung 712N. Nice
76 F according to radio clock on wall (it also measures room
temperature).

Tsk, you ask all those questions. Are you really Alex Trebek?

LHA / WMD

In article , (Steve
Stalker, Paranoid Ethnic Cleanser Exxtra) writes:

Subject: FCC Morse testing at 16 and 20 WPM
From: (Len Over 21)
Date: 7/16/2004 5:02 PM Central Standard Time
Message-id:

Poor obsessed, delusional nursie. Can't imagine that anyone
else doesn't like the Stalking Mighty Macho Morseman. Thinks
all who say negative to nursie are all pseudonyms of me.

They usually ARE you, Lennie.

LIE, nursie. You LIE.

PROVE all those "others" are really "me."

I don't need any pseudonyms.

Others, real-others, may need them. Their choice.

Poor nursie. Real others who won't agree with him...

Nursie can't hack that. Thinks they are all "me." Paranoia!

All a Big Conspiracy To Get Steve da Stalker!

Go back to your fantasyworld dream land, Stalker...

LHA / WMD

In article , (Steve
Stalker, Ethnic Cleanser Exxtra) writes:

Subject: FCC Morse testing at 16 and 20 WPM
From: (William)
Date: 7/16/2004 5:23 PM Central Standard Time
Message-id:

(N2EY) wrote in message
...
In article ,

(Len Over 21) writes:

AMATEUR radio is a hobby, not a national service, not an arm of the
United States Navy or the rest of the military, and not a public
safety
organization. Just a hobby involving radio.

It's not "just a hobby".

It is for most of the participants.

And you have deduced this from WHAT valid research?

But even if it were, what's the difference? If something is "just a
hobby",
does that mean there should be no standards, no training, no rules?

The FCC does not mandate training, does not mandate operating. It
simply has a mechanism in place for VEC's to examine applicants, for
the issuance and renewal of licenses, publication of regulations, and
rarely issues a citation.

The FCC DOES mandate "training"...IF you want a license you will have
to participate in a certain amount of training...

Name the Part numbers. Cite the language of this "mandate."

C'mon, Stalker, you are Mandate the Magician, show us your tricks.

The FCC does not run contests, sprints, DXCC, field days, or nets.

Whoa! Brain woke up for a few minutes!

AMATEUR radio long ago CEASED to be a "pool of experienced morse
operators" for any national need.

When did it cease, Len?

"long ago"

When did it cease Brian? Back when you were operating from Somalia?

Before that. :-) Before the First Gulf War, in fact.

Or was it when unlicensed devices started playing a "major role" in
"emergency comms"...?!?!

Twenty years ago, cellular telephony was just beginning and only a
few were installed, mainly in vehicles. Now there are millions and
one American in three has a cell phone subscription.

Not only that, FRS HTs (all unlicensed) are a regular consumer
electronics market item for $50 or less a pair.

CB has been there for over 40 years and may number 5 million or
so in the USA now.


And here's a fun fact: The Basis and Purpose never used the phrase
"experienced
morse operators". Just "experienced operators" - no mention of modes.

So the Basis and Purpose never emphasized (favored) one mode over
another.

Wonder where that come from?

Why would you wonder?

It's been almos the same language as long as I have been licensed.

You have "licensure" mister fancy legal pro. :-)

Since when was nursie admitted to a bar? Legal bar, that is.

The nation does NOT need morse operators, haven't for a long time.

How long?

"a long time"

PuppetBoy strikes again.

Jim, did you realize that a code exam is a disincentive to CW use?

Brain, did you know there are people on 6 and 2 meters USING Morse Code
who DIDN'T take an FCC test to do so...?!?!

Call Riley Hollingsworth! Untested, unlicensed PIRATES on the
ham bands!!!

Make your call, big mental health pro, have them COMMITTED!

You can do it! [you haven't done it on me or Brian, though]

Get tough! [tougher] Show them all who is BOSS! :-)

Arf Arf!! Yell Yell!!

LHA / WMD

In article ,
(William) writes:

(Len Over 21) wrote in message
...
In article ,
(Steve
Robeson K4CAP) writes:

There's a dozen of us in this forum alone who hold current licensure
and
who are proficient in Morse Code.

Wow! I'll bet NO ONE has as pretty a set of dress blues as da
gunnery nurse dill sergeant of the Amateur Corps!

Must wear white gloves when busy beeping.

Len, what the heck is "current licensure?" Does that mean he has a
permit to swim upstream and spawn with the salmon, or he can draw a
few amps from his starter battery?

"Licensure" is a fancy legal term for "being licensed" as in a
profession.

Not many dictionaries have the definition. It isn't in everyday
speech. :-)

Nursie wants to adopt it because he feels his federal amateur
authority license thingy is so Very Important and so Very Pro-
fessional sounding. [dreamland wish-fulfillment thing of his]

Nursie has a terrible need to Feel Important, Be Respected
for his mighty macho morse accomplishment. He is an Exxtra!
[dos equis brand, probably]

So, in his use of "current licensure" for his ham certificate, he
be Oh So Very Important Authoritzed By Federal Authorities!
Practically like he did an oral dissertation in front of a state bar.
[or "lube job"]

"Current?" I doubt that nursie twit can remember, let alone
apply Ohm's Law of Resistance and all that E, I, and R imply.

Play Act and Yell Yell he CAN do. :-)

Seems like it "ain't over yet" to me...

Any time now... :-)

And here's a fun fact: The Basis and Purpose never used the phrase
"experienced
morse operators". Just "experienced operators" - no mention of modes.

That's a LennieRant issue, Jim. Even when the current context DOESN'T
include Morse Code, he'll interject it and then claim we (licensees) are
the
ones obsessed with it.

You are. QED. :-)

dit dit.

Poor thing. Doesn't realize what he does in here...

Maybe that ethnic cleanser he uses is affecting his brain...

The nation does NOT need morse operators, haven't for a long time.

How long?

And who said?

Was there a Presidential Executive Order? Did Congress ammend the
Constitution? Did the FCC and NTIA prohibit the use of Morse Code for
thier
respective services?

Poor nursie still living in his fantasy world. Tsk, tsk.

He doesn't get out beyond checking out "paid services," I guess.

Even maritime radio has gone over to SSB voice and data modes for
open-ocean communications. That and satellite relay.

NO other radio service besides amateur radio uses any morse code
modes for communications.

IOW, Morse Code is gone by popular demand. Except in the Anachronism
Reenactors Radio League.

Poor nursie doesn't know that, Brian. Things work differently in his
fantasyland dream world.

There's only two slices of Morse-only spectrum, both are in the VHF
range,

To prove that, I'll tune to 14.010 and listen for his USB call. Nope,
didn't hear it. He's not telling the truth. Again.

and were lobbied for by weak signal operators anxious to see a part of the
spectrum protected for thier work...Mostly EME and meteor scatter
techniques,
but the sues are growing.

"Sues?" There's litigation about VHF and up?

No, no. You know, "Sues." His pair of twin blow up dolls. He's
gotten them some augmentation to meet his manly expectations. "So
what if he gets a little on the side."

Ah! So! I forgot about THAT "Sue." :-) :-) :-)

[I wonder what their Torr rating is? :-) ]

Oh, my! Those lawyers are into everything, aren't they?

I wouldn't be suprised if they have "Sues" as well. Maybe Philkane
can chime in on that one.

I dunno about that. A couple acquaintences keep saying
"lawyers suck!" and I thought it was just a figure of speech...

So, the League is a surrogate parent?!? I don't think so.

How many kids have you raised, Len?

Including himself?

Ham radio is all about raising children? Good heavens, I thought
ham radio was all about preserving the morse modes forever and
ever!

One learns something every day!

Ham radio is all about Raising Children!

If a few of them would only grow up it wouldn't be!

Dinna worra, laddie, Mama Dee is on the job, ready to spank and
discipline "the children!" :-)

Are all the Amateur Extras surrogate parents now? I don't think so.

You aren't.

But that's what he perceives himself as...

Dee, quit this infernal nattering about "parentage" and ham radio.

Why, Len? Because it's really quite an accurate analogy?

It makes Lennie nervous.

He shot blanks all his life, and now any discussion of kids get's him
wound up. That's why he wanted to exert some "parental control" over
younger
licensees with that age limit crap.

Tsk, tsk, tsk. I didn't "shoot blanks all my life."

My children are not a subject of discussion in here. They are all
physically and mentally normal.

Next thing you know, he'll be "dialing, dialing, dialing" to get
verification from our wives.

Nursie can't dial my first one (I be a widower for a long time) but my
second one is not only my high school sweetheart but also a
Masters degree holder in Social Work (Univ. of Illinois). Poor
nursie thinks he can out-wit my wife is in for a rude shock...she
has experience with crazies, but got tired of that and retired.

He doesn't understand that our wives are off limits to his little
dramas.

He doesn't understand MANY things!

Yiddish, Ohm's Law of Resistance, social graces, that amateur
is NOT a branch of the U.S. military just to name four...


Quit trying to sound off like you've got an influential pair.

Pair of what, Len?

What ever they are, I bet Lennie doesn't have a pair of them...Maybe a
pair of slippers or glasses...Nothing else.

Tsk, tsk. No humor among the PCTA.

[cut to scene of military post and assembly after reveille...female
first-
soldier starts calling roll, shouts "sound off like you got a pair!"]

His eyes would be too busy darting from one cover bubble level to the
other than to focus on the female. He would mumble something like,
"MARS IS Amateur Radio, Sir."

Hahhhhhh! He'd probably "get down and give her two" to show he
means it... :-)

[non military veterans won't understand that...so just skip it]

Nursie thinks licentiousness (not licensure) is an okay side for hams.
[see other posting of his, the one where he gets angry about "Neil"
and Dubya]

Definitely "current licentiousness."

Well, he's an Exxtra. That means he can do ANYTHING he
likes. :-)

If you're an example of "professional communicator", than I'm glad to be
an
amateur.

So V E R Y glad!

Tsk. The less-than-half-a-year "electronics purchasing agent" couldn't
cut it. Only civilian "electronics job" he ever had. Poor guy.

Well, there's always night school for nursie. :-)

Maybe one day he'll make something of hisself. But what are the odds?

I called Las Vegas. They don't have him on any board.

All bets off. A non-starter...even with "current licensure." :-)

LHA / WMD

In article ,
(William) writes:

(Len Over 21) wrote in message
...
In article ,
(Steve
Robeson K4CAP) writes:

Subject: FCC Morse testing at 16 and 20 WPM
From: (Len Over 21)
Date: 7/15/2004 8:41 PM Central Standard Time
Message-id:

In article ,
(Steve
Robeson K4CAP) writes:

Subject: FCC Morse testing at 16 and 20 WPM
From: PAMNO (N2EY)
Date: 7/15/2004 11:44 AM Central Standard Time
Message-id:

In article ,

(Len Over 21) writes:

Nonsense for the new millennium.

That's what you're giving us, Len!

Of course it is.

Without any practical experience in Amatuer Radio, how could he
render
an
INFORMED opinon on ANYthing having to do with Amateur Radio...???

Riiiiiiight, Stalker. How can ANYONE possibly know anything
about anything without being federally licensed in it?

I didn't say "licensed", Lennie...I said "experienced".

Gosh, in your psychotic fantasyland, amateur radio must be a
classified, sensitive, deep dark secret, revealed only to those "eyes
only" folks who have been background-checked, right?

NOBODY unlicense can possibly know anything at all!

Sure they can...if they ahve some sort of practical experience in
it...

Illogical. To have "practical experience" in amateur radio
REQUIRES an amateur license. Those without that magick license
"cannot have any practical experience in it." [Stalker stated that]

Bottom line is that Stalker doesn't know what the hell he is talking
about.

U.S. amateur radio is open for observation to anyone...on the air,
in print, in person to the public.

Stalker is trying vainly to prove that those without licenses cannot
know anything at all about radio. That's absolutely false, a LIE of
bright magnitude, but he can't stop. Tsk.

You are neither licensed OR experienced. Not in AMATEUR RADIO.

Len, what are "morsemen"?

Anything and everything he's not.

I'm a retired electronics engineer with a good retirement income.

You are an ALLEGED electronics engineer.

Sigh. Poor nursie can't help herself with all the insults. :-)

Riiiiiight...I have alleged resumes, alleged history in the alleged
industry, an alleged patent, alleged schooling with alleged skin from
an alleged sheep, know alleged hams who have alleged ham licenses
longer than nursie has allegedly lived. Not only that, the alleged IRS
and alleged tax board and alleged government agencies all allegedly
believe I allegedly did all that. The alleged bank keeps track of all
the alleged income I allegedly made, taking in the alleged social
security check allegely electornically.

Not only that, I was once a long-time member of Joe Sheppard's
The Ledge BBS!

Some in a position to know your "professional" services directly
quantify
your skills as "mediocre, at best..."

A LIE, nursie. Bald-faced, out and out LIE.

You don't know squat about the electronics industry or military
electronics or civilian electronics other than reading about ham
radio in QST. YOU DON'T KNOW.

Now YOU produce those NAMES of the "some" you ALLEGE
"know."

You can't because they DON'T EXIST. They are a fermentation of
your hate-filled obsessional, delusional psychosis in here.

Get some mental therapy. From a real shrink.

It will help everyone, even yourself.

Pbththththth.

LHA / WMD

Len, he's a freak. Stay away. "Danger Will Robinson. Danger!"

I'm still waiting "to be picked up by the authorities alerted by the
call made by that mental health professional" idiot, nursie.

I still can't believe he broadcast that claim of being "able to pick
up a phone and have us committed" all over the Internet via
this newsgroup! :-)

He HAS lost all touch with reality. Nutso. Whacked-out.
Zoned on his own peyote-chewing dreamland.

He IS "Lost in Space!" :-)

LHA / WMD

In article ,
(William) writes:

(Len Over 21) wrote in message
...
In article ,
(William) writes:

(Len Over 21) wrote in message
...
In article ,
PAMNO
(N2EY) writes:

In article ,

(Len Over 21) writes:

In article ,
PAMNO
(N2EY) writes:

More spectrum is simply the reward system in use. It was chosen in
large
part
because it's easy to enforce.

Nonsense for the new millennium.

That's what you're giving us, Len!

Now, now Rev. Jim. You're off on an evangelical Sermon on the
Antenna Mount again!

You just didn't answer the question I posed about "enforcement
ease." Tsk. tsk. tsk.

Tell us how morse signals are "easier to enforce" than voice
signals. Try a few details of how that is done.

That's going to be a problem for Jimmy Who. His claim is illogical.

Anyway, I'll be standing by waiting for his answer. BTW, I heard the
temperature in hell is falling rapidly.

Don't expect miracles. Not in the answer or the environment of hell.

LHA / WMD

I have more faith in the environment of hell than I do in the
truthfulness of the lobotomized, lock-steppedness of the PCTA.

I think I've figured out why the PCTA absolutely HATED any
thought whatsoever of a small suggestion I made long ago to the
FCC - that of having a certain minimum age for a license.

The PCTA are all acting so childish about that morse test
requirement that they can't stand not being able to continue to
be childish. "Wah wah wha...we gots to have a morse test!!!"
"All the 'big' people in radio know morse and we are 'big' people!"
All of which was fine for the 1930s...but hardly so 70 years later.

All the PCTA seemed to have innoculated themselves with
mighty macho morsemanship at an early age and are still
addicted to it and the Importance (!) of the mode to "all radio."

They are all - seemingly - a bunch of middle-age sitter-downers
(in front of their radios) wishing fervently to recapture their
youth lost so many years back. They want their youth back and
with that, their youthful ideals which were so Very Important back
then.

They don't really give a damn about anyone else. They want to
force the morse test on everyone because They were forced to
learn it by Their seniors. They want to get even. Such wishing is
typically of the childish. QED. Ergo, game, set, and match.

Mama Dee and Rev. Jim say that "the experienced"
(all those who love honor cherish and obey morse code) MUST
be "in charge" of determining the whichness of the what.

Regression is the better part of their valor. Or stasis.

LHA / WMD

In article ,
(William) writes:

(Len Over 21) wrote in message
...
In article ,
(Steve
Robeson K4CAP) writes:

Subject: FCC Morse testing at 16 and 20 WPM
From: (Len Over 21)
Date: 7/15/2004 8:41 PM Central Standard Time
Message-id:

In article ,
(Stevie
Stalker, Mighty Macho Morseman Ethnic Cleanser of Olde Tyme
Hamme Raddio using a Fleet Kit) writes:

"I am only here to civilly debate the Morse Code test issue"

The lies of Lennie Anderson continue.

"Lies" only in nursie's fantasyland.

Poor nursie.

LHA / WMD

Drama Queen

...from Middle School drama class... :-)

LHA / WMD

In article , "Dee D. Flint"
writes:

"N2EY" wrote in message
...
[snip]
The important question is, who is the best judge of what the requirements
should be? The newcomer or the experienced ham?

That is the very crux of the problem. Somehow too many have lost sight of
the fact that those with experience should be the ones to define the
requirements.

Territorial Imperative! Turf!

Mama Dee has TOLD US "children!" What she say be da Law! :-)

Dee, so many of "you" have lost sight of the fact that amateur radio
was not created in your images nor do "you" have all the power to
take over the playing field.

Sorry to subvert your endeavor to "take charge here," but there is
no emergency requiring what is tantamount to martial law by "the
experienced."

If "the experienced" had their power, hams would all be beeping
away on HF with no voice privileges and the VHF and above
bands would be non-existant ("only real hams use morse on HF").
"The Bands" would remain in stasis of the 1920s and not advance
much at all.

Why do you wish to subvert democratic principles when it comes
to the hobby of ham radio?

LHA / WMD

In article ,
(William) writes:

(Len Over 21) wrote in message
...
In article ,
(Steve
Robeson K4CAP) writes:

Subject: FCC Morse testing at 16 and 20 WPM
From: (Len Over 21)
Date: 7/15/2004 8:41 PM Central Standard Time
Message-id:

In article ,
(Stevie
Stalker, Ethnic Cleanser of Olde Tyme Hamme Raddio) writes:

A nickle says Lennie the Lame found yet another anonymous server to
hide
behind.

If not, it's someone he's slept with.

Poor Stalker making LIES again. Tsk, tsk.

Not a lie, Lennie...A bet.

With whom? One of your other personalities?

Poor obsessed, delusional nursie. Can't imagine that anyone
else doesn't like the Stalking Mighty Macho Morseman. Thinks
all who say negative to nursie are all pseudonyms of me.

That's nutso-ville. Aberrant delusional psychosis. Whacko-land.

Yep. He have Big Drama in head.

Poor nursie must think we are Ebert & Roeper who just gave him
two "thumbs down" early Sunday evening on national TV. :-)

Poor nursie would snit iffen he ever discovered there's NO Internet
out there...his computer is making all this up!!! :-)

Beep, beep.

LHA / WMD

dit, dit.

dah dah.

That T is crossed and your I is dotted. :-)

LHA / WMD

In article , "Dee D. Flint"
writes:

"William" wrote in message
. com...
PAMNO (N2EY) wrote in message
...

The important question is, who is the best judge of what the
requirements
should be? The newcomer or the experienced ham?

73 de Jim, N2EY

Jim, many experienced amateurs have spoken agains the continued use of
the Morse Code as a filter. You ignore them, or say they must be
wrong. Luckily, hams don't decide, necomer or otherwise. The FCC
does, and they see merit in the reasonable arguments put forth by
those experienced hams.

Best of Luck

Please post the URLs of the surveys to back up your claim. How "many?" Is
it a majority or is it just a vocal minority?

It's a vocal minority.

So far the FCC has done nothing with the innumerable petitions nor have the
acted unilaterally to implement the change now allowed by the international
treaty. At this point it is premature to say that the FCC sees merit in
either side of the question.

Back in 1998, the majority of those who commented on the restructuring NPRM not
only supported code testing but supported code testing at more than the minimum
5 wpm level. The vast majority of those commenting were licensed US hams.

In the comments to the various recent petitions, the number of *individuals*
(again, the vast majority of whom are licensed hams) supporting continued code
testing is the majority.

Those opposed are the minority. Heck, in its 8 or so years of existence,
"No-Code International" (remember them?) has not been able to attract even 1%
of US hams as members - even though there are no dues and no renewals.

Any intelligent person doesn't consider it a filter. It is simply a useful
element of ham radio that should be maintained. Some of the people against
using it as a filter are for keeping it as a part of the ham's required
knowledge.

The term "filter" can be applied to any test or requirement. A written test
"filters out" those who can't or won't pass it. But it does not guarantee that
each and every one of those who does pass it will abide by all of the rules and
regs and be a good ham. No test can guarantee that.

73 de Jim, N2EY

"Dee D. Flint" wrote in message ...
"N2EY" wrote in message
...
[snip]
The important question is, who is the best judge of what the requirements
should be? The newcomer or the experienced ham?


That is the very crux of the problem. Somehow too many have lost sight of
the fact that those with experience should be the ones to define the
requirements.

Dee D. Flint, N8UZE

The crux of the problem is that somehow too many think that they
define the requirements. The inmates think they are in charge of the
asylum.

In article , Mike Coslo
writes:

N2EY wrote:

In article , Mike Coslo
writes:

Did you highlight the right answers or black out the wrong ones?

Neither!

Impressive.

Continued taking the online tests. For every question I got wrong on
the tests, I researched out the answer. Sources were reference books and
the 'net.

Yep.

Continued until I scored 100 percent pretty consistently.

And the actual test was a breeze, right?

Wasn't too bad.

Of course you passed.

What you did was to 'study the test'. Which isn't "wrong" or illegal,
despite
what some may rant about it. You did what worked for you, within the rules.

Here's the thing, Jim. I can still remember the right answers. So did I
learn the material?

Maybe. If you were given a new exam on the same material that used completely
different questions and answers, could you pass it? If so, then you know the
material.

*If* you only care about right answers rather than understanding.

Not really. I saw a electrician licensing test book with question pool
recently. Lives depend on the electrician doing safe and proper work.
and they are depending on the Electrician knowing.

But someone cannot become a licensed electrician by written tests alone.
There
are extensive practical tests and experience requirements as well, and
several
levels of licensing. IIRC, here in PA it takes 9000 hours of documented
work
experience under the supervision of a licensed electrician to be licensed
at
the highest level.

Sure, but if you flunk the test, question pool and all, then you
aren't an electrician. 9000 hours of training aside.

Point is, if you pass the test but don;t have the 9000 hours you aren't an
electrician either.

For example, I could ask:

- Which of the following are blunatrons? (Flufnagles, zinthorps, calinars,
rhenotors)

A) Fluffnagles and rhenotors only
B) Zinthorps only
C) Calinars and zinthorps only
D) Calinars, zinthorps and fluffnagles

(Of course the correct answer is C)

Your not going to catch me in a trick question, Mr. Micollis! Zinthorps

only exist at a temperature of absolute zero, and even then it's only a
theory!..........

Doesn't matter because the question pool committee has determined that C is the
correct answer. Note that there is no answer which reads "Calinars only".

Besides, you should know by now that a new type of superconducting
nanotechnology zinthorp has been developed that is real, not theory.
Impractical now because of the requirements for liquid helium cooling but in a
few years, who knows?

Now, if you remember that calinars and zinthorps are blunatrons but
fluffnagles
and rhenotors aren't, you'll always get the question right. But do you
really understand anything about blunatrons?



There was an old song called "Patches" that you may recall from high
school
days. Man is remembering how tough he had it as a kid. Among the folks I
grew up with, we still use the line

"And then the rains came, and washed all the crops away"

whenever somebody starts geezering.

hehe, I used to do a good rendition of the line after that - "And at
the age of thirteen, I felt I had the weight of the whooole world on my
shoulders" 8^)


"And Mama knew what I was going through..."

That's the one!

It's particularly effective when someone is going on and one about
something
like how tough it was to find a parking space, or how long the line at
Starbucks was this morning,

That's how the Republican party got started isn't it? ;^)

Exactly.

and three people do it, one taking each line...

"in harmony"


If the test administrator looks like Heidi Klum, or if I get to be *her*
test
administrator, I'll volunteer to put the system throuigh its paces. Heck,
I'll sign up for two weeks......

I've got dibs on Ms. Klum if she ever needs a ham radio instructor.

Nice lass. Can you believe I had to look her up on the web?

You must not pay attention to the magazine racks in the supermarket checkout
line...

Big problem is the name. I keep thinking of the old story of "Heidi", although
the
real one bears no resemblance!!

I also claim dibs on Molly Sims...

73 de Jim, N2EY

In article , (Steve
Robeson K4CAP) writes:

Subject: FCC Morse testing at 16 and 20 WPM
From: (William)
Date: 7/17/2004 9:50 AM Central Standard Time
Message-id:

(Len Over 21) wrote in message
...
In article ,
(Steve

Some in a position to know your "professional" services directly
quantify
your skills as "mediocre, at best..."

A LIE, nursie. Bald-faced, out and out LIE.

Lennie, you can keep repeating that until you die, but it will not make
it
any less true.

A LIE, nursie. A Bald-faced (except for scraggly moustache),
out and out LIE from an ignorant SOB who doesn't know one end
of a REAL electronics lab from an advert in QST.

You worked how many months as a purchasing agent in a set-
top box maker and NEVER got to do any engineering work?
That was the ONLY electronics "engineering" job you had in
your entire life (I can't speak for your other personalities and I
don't know the work environment in your fantasyland).

I've been in aerospace since 1956, in electronics engineering with
engineering design responsibility since 1961, through "retirement"
of 1997 and beyond. You are being some kind of "judge" of
professional engineering work?!? Bull****. Out and out bull****.

Believe it or not, not everyone in your "profession" was enamored with
your knowledge and skill.

Geez, you ARE obsessed with hate and loathing, aren't you?

You've worked at ALL the places I've worked, ey senior? You
"knew" all the people I've worked with all that time? Of course you
did, you just said you did. Hi hi and a ho ho!!!

They certainly weren't enamored with your personality.

Poor nursie. Can't get along in the big leagues. Speak nasty to
all who've made a career in that. Tsk.

Perhaps if you had stepped off of your self-grandizing pedestal
once in a while...?!?!

Perhaps nursie see a competent mental health professional
and get some HELP for hisself?

I got no "pedestal." I did what I did, got the money I got through
working for it, got the education for the tasks to make more
money to do more tasks, did them all and had fun doing so
(except all the field trips were a PIA even though I got to see
strange places and interesting things.

In my business there was NO room for all the bull**** baffle-
gab of marketing and selling. Electrons, fields and waves work
by Their rules, not some bull**** artist who doesn't know squat
about Ohm's Law of Resistance! Geez!!!

Electrons, fields and waves don't care squat about Credentials
or pretty pieces of paper making someone out to be Exxtra,
no matter how many bottle of dos equis the Exxtra drank.

You don't know squat about the electronics industry or military
electronics or civilian electronics other than reading about ham
radio in QST. YOU DON'T KNOW.

I know more than you care to acknowledge, but that's OK by me.

Yah, ve can all tell, by golly. Big Exxxxtra, doo beeping. Big
man, heap smarts. Yah, yah.

Now YOU produce those NAMES of the "some" you ALLEGE
"know."

Nope. They spoke to me on assurance that I'd guard thier
confidentiality.
That they were career engineers at NADC and had occassion to "know" you is
adequate enough.

BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

Nursie, you one BIGG BS tosser. LIES. Bull****. All LIES.

You don't have ANY "names," Stalker. None.

Ignorant twit. I was a field engineer (temporary assignment) for RCA
Corporation, visiting NADC in six trips for a total of about three months,
1971 to 1972. The lab group I met with also came out to Van Nuys on
three subsequent trips. I know who they are. One even visited my
residence. YOU don't. You haven't got a clue. You are BLUFFING.

Okay, I call. Show your hand. Tell everybody.

You can't because they DON'T EXIST. They are a fermentation of
your hate-filled obsessional, delusional psychosis in here.

Again, you may continue to make that assertion over and over but it will
not make it true. There is nothing "hate-filled" or "obsessional" about having
taken the time to do some research on some of the references YOU provided. I
just lucked up on the right people.

More BULL****. BLUFF. Freak-out imagining by nursie, obsessed
with hate and anger.

Okay, just tell the lab group's name. Describe the project that RCA
sent me on. Describe the "competitor" project, the company name
at least (well known, located in the upper midwest). Describe the
aircraft used in the airborne testing, where they flew. Tell what
"Yankee Bravo Tango" meant in the NADC group.

You can't do it, can you? BS artist with no talent, trying to use a
littly bitty schoolchild's paint brush to cover an entire billboard.

Should have kept your mouth shut, Lennie. You set your own trap.

No "Trap." Been there, done that. Got the evidence.

You hate that. TS. Too bad for you.

The only secrets I got are under Title 18, USC. Not many left.
The rest is all out in the open.


What would "help" here, Lennie, is if you would take it upon yourself to
act your age, stop making assertions and proclamations that are easy to prove
wrong, and actually DO the things you claim you are going to do.

"Acting one's age?!?!?"

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

You mean like YOUR maniacal "laughter?!?" :-) :-) :-)

What, you've gotten yourself through med school, can "officially" sign
MD behind your ham call? :-)

Go for it! When you are done there, go to work for Disney in their
"imagineering" for Disneyland. All fantasy you dream up, nursie,
bull****, pushed on by lots of hate and obsessive need to destroy
those who don't agree with you. Might make a nice horror addition
to Disneyland...or, in your case, Dizzyland.

You are in psychiatric services about as much as your short-term
purchasing agent job made you "knowledgeable" about electronic
engineering. Ptui. Zero. Zip. Nada. Nyet. BS.

LHA / WMD

In article , (Stevie
Stalker, Exxtra Ethnic Cleanser who swallowed his own Fleet Kit) writes:

Subject: FCC Morse testing at 16 and 20 WPM
From: "Dee D. Flint"
Date: 7/17/2004 10:32 AM Central Standard Time
Message-id:

"N2EY" wrote in message
...
[snip]
The important question is, who is the best judge of what the requirements
should be? The newcomer or the experienced ham?

That is the very crux of the problem. Somehow too many have lost sight of
the fact that those with experience should be the ones to define the
requirements.

But it also needs to be the RIGHT experience.

[introduction to another hate-filled obsessive need to defame
another...]

Lennie the Liar has a lot of "experience" in SOME radio matters, but
zero-point-zero percent of it is as an Amateur Radio licensee.

"SOME?" Like since 1953? Like since 1956?

What has nursie done in that other "SOME" of radio? Answrer:
Nottadamnthing. :-)

Also
zero-point-zero experience in "emergency communications".

WRONG. Use Rev. Jim's Time Mashine and go back to 1994.
Some earth-shaking news awaits you, nursie.

His "traffic
handling" experience was as a radio clerk in the Army in the FIFTIES, and his
experience in practical avionics goes back to his days as a STUDENT (never
licensed) pilot back when Lear organ-grinder radios were the "state of the
art".

WRONG. WRONG. WRONG. Tsk, tsk, tsk.

MOS 281.6 - Microwave Radio Relay Operations and Service
Supervisor plus brevet MOSs of Fixed Station Transmitter
Operations and Service, Carrier Systems Operations and
Service. [the "point-6" in that old MOS numbering is the
indicator of supervisory duties which I had as an E-5 S/Sgt]
1953 to 1956. "Three up and one down" after just 2 1/2
years. Earned.

"Practical avionics" includes airborne radar (both military and
civilian), airborne radionavigation equipment (TACAN, DME,
VOR, Localizer, Glideslope, and Marker Beacon) plus several
missle systems which few will know about, such as the old
Hughes Aircraft "Falcon" series or "Maverick." That at, in
chronological order, Ramo-Wooldridge (the "R" and "W" of
TRW now), Micro-Radionics Inc., Van Nuys, CA, EOS
[Electro-Optical Systems] a division of Xerox, Pasadena, CA
(mostly spacecraft stuff), RCA Corporation EASD (Electro-
magnetic and Aviation Systems Division), Van Nuys, CA,
Hughes Aircraft Missle Division (Hughes for the 2nd time,
this at the same buildings once leased by R-W), Canoga
Park, CA, and Teledyne Electronics, Newbury Park, CA
[designers and manufacturers of military transponders, what
civilians call "IFF"]. Wanna talk how that marvelous VOR
works? No problem...old NARCO box or an RCA 3 1/2"
instrument package that has it all...Nav and Com, with
MB and LOC and GS all packed in behind the OBS.
Wanna talk ground station VOR or TACAN? No problem
there, either. Wanna talk on-the-air while airborne? No
problem, done that too and not just with some UNICOM at
a grass field. More like the Western Airlines maintenance
facility at LAX.

BTW, oh great and ignorant bird of the radio universe, the
Army didn't have a "message center" at ADA. Other Army
message centers fed it and were fed in turn...ADA kept the
radio circuits working. They still do that as they did at Fort
Irwin in 1989 for regimental level field radio (quite a bit different
than 35 years prior). No manual telegraphy in the 50s, not in
the 80s, the 90s, or this new millennium.

Sunnuvagun! Who would a thought it? No CW! :-)

Would you want HIM making binding decisions for you in regards to
Amateur Radio policy?

Yes, why trust the FCC to regulate amateur radio? None at the
FCC need have ham licenses to do that. Not even the FDA needs
ham licenses and they stamp the hams. Too.

Riiiiiight...keep the beepers in charge of hum raddio...those mighty
macho morsemen keeping the airwaves pristine with the musick of
morse as they did in the old, old days. Archaic Radio Service, the
ARS of yeasteryear! [all rise...]

When Lennie discusses matters of technical interest I sit up and pay
attention...but that's ALL people like him CAN talk about.

As Luke said to Obi Wan Kenobi, "Force off, Obi!"

Your NF off! [Noise Figure, that is...wayyyyy too high...]

I know people like him in my professional life too...people who can
recite the textbooks and history annals inside and out...but don't have a
valid
clue as to HOW to apply what they know. People like that are dangerous.

Oh, my, the mighty macho morseman crowns hisself King of the
Karing once again. Real MDs who've gone through the rigors of
med school and internship (and having to listen to know-it-all
nursies try to tell them what to do) "don't know enough to apply!"
Oh, my, TN state should have given him a MD to put behind his
name? [yes, if it means "Morose Dysfunctional"]

When the chips are down, two things happen with nursie: First,
he don't know one chip from another or how they are supposed to
work; two, his Mouth will get working and his pudgy fingers will
type out all kinds of schmucky nastygrams in the newsgrope
(mouth has to snarl and mutter as he shouts via the keyboard).

Want radio OPERATING? Sure. No problem. Done it from
land, from water, from a cockpit while aloft. Want space comms?
Sorry, you can't do that yet, NASA can't afford to send Morose
Dysfunctionals off on expensive spaceships. I'll just stand in the
JPL mission control room (as I've done for a few missions) and
watch the live data come in from Mars or wherever. That be happy.
I've "worked" a station ON the moon. Stalker Stevie never did.

Goldstone more fun place, though it be hot, hot. Clear Lake fun
for a visit but I wouldn't wanna work there ("failure no option" in
the old days, not quite so now). Wanna get up at Oh-Dark-
Thirty to prep telemetry for an avionics package on a fast mover?
Done that too. Edwards. China Lake. Kern County Airport #7
(Mojave). Phooey, like my mornings quiet and late. Who needs
all that sweat to push envelopes? :-) Given my sweat, pushed an
envelope a couple times, sweated in the labs producing goodness
and newness, seen it work.

Ham radio would be fun. But, all the "intelligent people" wanna
recreate the hoary halcion days of the 1920s and 1930s. Phooey
on them and Morris Goad. "Intelligent people" love spark Tx and
Galena Rx? They be nutso, whacked-out. Keep on recreating
Civil War of a kind, the ones between the beepers and talkers.

Beep, beep.

LHA / WMD

In article ,
(William) writes:

(Len Over 21) wrote in message
...
In article ,

(N2EY) writes:

Have you ever seen a family where the kids are given everything they want
but
not required to contribute anything? Ever see what sort of adults those
kids
become?

Six-year-old Novices and Nine-year-old Extras? :-)

LHA / WMD

August QST: Twelve year old Extra in Kentucky. And a shack to die for.

I don't read QST regularly. Might drop in at the Burbank HRO
next time we shop at Ralphs market across Buena Vista.

Gotcha. Kentucky shack. Paid for with paper route earnings?

:-)

LHA / WMD

In article , "Dee D. Flint"
writes:

"William" wrote in message
. com...
PAMNO (N2EY) wrote in message
...

The important question is, who is the best judge of what the
requirements
should be? The newcomer or the experienced ham?

73 de Jim, N2EY

Jim, many experienced amateurs have spoken agains the continued use of
the Morse Code as a filter. You ignore them, or say they must be
wrong. Luckily, hams don't decide, necomer or otherwise. The FCC
does, and they see merit in the reasonable arguments put forth by
those experienced hams.

Best of Luck

Please post the URLs of the surveys to back up your claim. How "many?" Is
it a majority or is it just a vocal minority?

Official numbers with lots of statistical qualifications?

Or the "official" views of the ARRL (which is decidedly biased in
favor of morsemanship for amateurs)?

[readers WILL know what your answer will be]

So far the FCC has done nothing with the innumerable petitions nor have the
acted unilaterally to implement the change now allowed by the international
treaty. At this point it is premature to say that the FCC sees merit in
either side of the question.

The number of petitions for consideration are 18. Rather a large
number for such a small radio service. On top of that, the FCC is
going to do an R&O which is largely "rules housekeeping" and has
nothing to do with code testing.

Your point - and it must be obvious to most readers - is that you
are miffed as well as adamant about keeping the code test.

Any intelligent person doesn't consider it a filter.

Any "intelligent person" would consider your statement as utter
NONSENSE! :-)

Mama Dee, you are sounding way too officious and arrogant and
elitist when saying that "intelligent people don't consider it a filter."

Intelligent people can see the whole of the radio environment
and conclude that the morse code test is just an old anachronism.

It is simply a useful
element of ham radio that should be maintained.

Repeated NONSENSE. Some consider it "important" solely
because They were able to master it...and want to use that to
keep "their territory" as private as possible for "their own kind."

Some of the people against
using it as a filter are for keeping it as a part of the ham's required
knowledge.

Please post the URLs of the surveys to back up your claim. How
"many?" Is it a majority or is it just a vocal minority?

Are there any Stanford-Binet IQ scores included with those
surveys? After all, ONLY "intelligent people" will want to keep
the code! :-)

In article ,
(William) writes:

(Len Over 21) wrote in message
...
In article ,
(Steve
Robeson K4CAP) writes:

Sucks to be you, Putz.

Tsk. The Stalker put away is Amateur Corps Class A uniform and the
recruiting posters for the United States Amateur Corps ("A few good
men...")
and lapsed into his hate-filled snarliness mode.

I see a glimpse of humanity from Steve every few weeks. I like him
much better that way. I'll pray for him tonight.

I used to pray for him. Some time ago. Reason was I got this
faraway guffaw smothered by a divine hand, I think. It went something
like this: Bwahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha!

Well, Stalker IS a representative of top-of-the-line amateur radio
licensee.

Let's back away from that idea for a while. What? We've got maybe
four or five Extras on here who are congenital liars, spinmasters, or
just cranky old farts VS how many did Jim just post are in the ARS?

Whatever Rev. Jim's source, it is the only one "correct."

I prefer Hamdata.com tabulations, not the "interpreted kind." All
those sources have fast broadband access to the SAME data
files (enorrmous ones, BTW).

I see your point. I also see all the PCTAs who are arrogantly
adamant about Being So Right about their viewpoints.

All us newsgrope readers see the same text. Those mighty words
of the PCTA (and their ilk) appear on everyone's screen. They have
their Say and So Be It. They are the Great Gurus. De facto, not
de jure. What is anyone to believe about U.S. amateur radio if
their only source of information is from those same OFs?

I don't think Steve and the others on here are representative of
top-of-the-line amateurs at all.

No? :-)

I agree with you...knowing more radio amateurs off-line than on-
line. KD6JG is what I consider a good friend and I'm hoping to
say hello to him in mid-California a bit later. W6MJN was Best
Man at my wedding. That's just two out of many. shrug

As a matter of fact, I feel kind of sorry for Jim. I think he's hung in
here about a year too long. He should have bailed before his lost
his last remnant of dignity.

Jim was on the AOL ham pub before I saw him on r.r.a.p. Was
like a Newington-south recruitment drive on AOL to me. Came
off like an 80-year-old OF. QED. Couldn't take much
controversy then, can't now.

His
post about "Morse Code Exams are a disincentive to CW use" really told
the tale. Since then he's gone over to the dark side and can't find
his way back. He's truly committed.

All that "committment" gets to all. Amateur radio is NOT a
marriage and life ever after. The PCTA cannot change their minds
nor let anyone else change their minds. Not ever! :-)

"MARS IS amateur radio" is from an extreme case. :-)

All the PCTA love him. He be Tuff and Loud. Yell-Yell alla time.

I think they only support him because they think they'll all hang
separately if they don't hang together. I can't imagine them actually
coming forward to say they love him. Just another case of group-think.

Well, united they hang or they hang separately. Either way, the
hanging happens.

But, here's the thing with Yell-Yell: Everyone against him is
"really me under a pseudonym!" So, what you just wrote is what
I just wrote, since "we are the same person!" Hi hi hi hi.
Bang the conundrum slowly... :-)

So suprised when Jim first said Bruce might be brilliant (hi, hi),
then said he wasn't proper amateur material.

Broose is just a character...with or without a license. :-)

In article ,
(William) writes:

(N2EY) wrote in message
...
In article ,

(Len Over 21) writes:

More spectrum is simply the reward system in use. It was chosen in
large
part
because it's easy to enforce.

Not only was it easy to enforce but it was selected because it was a
desireable enough reward that people would put in the training to get
it.

Utter nonsense, Mama Dee. Spin-like rationalization.

That's a good description of what you post here, Len ;-) ;-) ;-)

Only to the PCTA.

Nope. To anyone who knows the facts.

Dee regurges so much pathertic ARRL-speak it just can't read her
anymore.

Careful, she'll spank you too... :-)


AMATEUR radio is a hobby, not a national service, not an arm of the
United States Navy or the rest of the military, and not a public
safety
organization. Just a hobby involving radio.

It's not "just a hobby".

For some it IS a lifestyle. Their problem, not the governments.

Why is it a "problem"?

The government doesn't view amateur radio as an alternative lifestyle.
There are no bill in Congress trying for a Constitutional Amendment.
Practicioners of amateur radio will just have to deal with it, that
is, if they view it as an alternative lifestyle.

So, amateur radio is NOT a hobby?

It's not *just* a hobby.

Would you tell volunteer firefighters and EMTs that what they do is "just a
hobby"?

Different things. And they get paid for each run. Only repeaters
owners get paid in amateur radio.

Rev. Jim MUST build up amateur radio as something more than
it is. Ergo, analogues with Public Safety Services, etc.

I don't know exactly why he does that, just that it is common
practice among so many amateur radio hobbyists to build up
their avocation into some noble cause.

Prove its vital need to the nation as a national service or an arm of
the military or a public safety organization.

Why? Is that the criteria for something to be more than "just a hobby"?

Part of Basis and Purpose justification for being.

Most of that is just Political Doublespeak. A radio service has a
need for existance in the eyes of Congress. Political doublespeak
with all its attendant puffery and noble-sounding words is a part
of that process. That happens in just about anything that is
legislated.

Weird thing about that political doublespeak is that some actually
believe each and every word!


The FCC hasn't proved that. Only the ham-lifestylers try to prove
that. They NEED the rationalization.

So what's your problem?

The problem is all the lifestylers that yak and yak, copy field day
messages prior to the start of field day, and paying lip service to
being a national asset, but couldn't NCS their way out of a wet paper
bag.

Those are the professional amateurs. :-)

But even if it were, what's the difference? If something is "just a
hobby",
does that mean there should be no standards, no training, no rules?

Tsk, tsk. Arguing to extemes again?

No. Just asking a question.

What should the standards be?

See Part 97, minus the Morse Code exam.

He can't see that well...despite assurances that he can. :-)

The FCC isn't chartered to do "training" for radio hams.

Actually, it is.

I've never been to an FCC training session. Would you mind mentoring
a junior amateur regarding the place, location, and times? Thanks in
advance.

The FCC actually does have some "training sessions!" Mostly
put on by the Office of Engineering and Technology.

The thing is that NONE of the "training sessions" involve amateur
radio. :-)

That's on their web page, by the way.

The FCC doesn't really "set standards," only sets regulations.

Wrong again!

How many parts per million?

That's not the point, Brian. Rev. Jim MUST call all opposite-to-
his-opinions as "wrong." :-)

Rev. Jim sets the standards. De facto, not de jure. Therefore,
all what he say is "right" and anything opposite is "wrong." :-)

AMATEUR radio long ago CEASED to be a "pool of experienced morse
operators" for any national need.

The description never included the word "Morse", Len.

Then why is Morse so prominent in your thinking?

He is a Morseman! They don't need to answer to Anybody! :-)

When did it cease, Len?

Long ago. :-)

When, exactly?

Long ago.

He wants the Exact day, the Exact time, etc., then, when you
supply it, he will say "THAT'S WRONG!" :-)

Find all the military morsemen "needs" you can. That be easy, as
there are no such needs.

Find all the commercial communications services you can, count
the "needs" for morsemen. Very few and those be on the Great
Lakes shipping.

What's your point, Len?

Do you agree that the nation needs a "Pool of trained radio operators"
which doesn't include Morse?

I doubt a direct answer to that question... :-)

And here's a fun fact: The Basis and Purpose never used the phrase
"experienced
morse operators". Just "experienced operators" - no mention of modes.

The nation does NOT need morse operators, haven't for a long time.

How long?

Long time. :-)

You don't know, then.

Not since the Coast Guard quit monitoring.

Well before that.

Most rewards in the real world have little relationship to the work
requested.

More spin crappola.

Well, at least you're honest about your content ;-) ;-) ;-) ;-)

Tsk, tsk. Not nice.

No, you're not nice at all, Len. ;-) ;-) ;-) ;-) ;-) ;-) ;-)

And you've gone over to the dark side. ;^)

That explains all the breathy sounds...he's wearing a breather
mask as well as a helmet!

Rather nasty comment for a portentious
revered one of the Great Gurus of the newsgrope.

Describing yourself, I see.

In kind.

lots of snit snipped

He posts a lot of "refined" snit. Arrogant snit, but REFINED. :-)

Has an odor of a refinery some times...

Just face the reality of the matter. Morsemen got their little CW
playground and should be happy.

What *are* you talking about, Len?

The LOWER parts of the HF bands.

You mean the parts where voice modes aren't allowed? Guess what - they're
all
wide open for data modes, too. What's the problem?

Reilly says band plans are actionable. Do you now disagree with
Reilly, too?

You sure have been disagreeable of late.

It might be the "disincentive thing about morse" that's getting to him.


Professional communicators they
ain't, even if they want, desperately, to be oh, so very pro.

If you're an example of "professional communicator", than I'm glad to be
an
amateur.

You are NOT a professional communicator.

Never claimed to be.

Just don't forget it. You're just a guy who refuses to accept that
professional communicators know something about all of radio.

Careful, Brian. He is another Exxtra! With a Southgate Type 7
and knows how to use it! :-)

You're neither are a professional communicator nor an amateur radio
operator,
Len. Just some guy who likes to flame amateur radio newsgroups.

Len is a professional. You just refuse to accept it. That makes you
wrong. That is all. And it won't be the first time.

Rev. Jim gets off on calling others "wrong."

If he ever met William Wong of Hewlett-Packard, he'd call him
"Wrong." :-)

You're on the outside looking in.

I'm on the inside, yet I see Len's point.

Brian, that's part of their Elitist "schtick." (Yiddishism used by
entertainment industry meaning "a part of the act")

PCTAs MUST keep the code test for the License Test. Morsemanship
is about all they have to show up the others in radio. [like the rest of
radio gives a damn about manual telegraphy]

PCTAs bought into the morse-code-is-king thing long ago and won't
let go of that Belief System until well after they pass on......

LHA / WMD