In article , Mike Coslo
writes:

N2EY wrote:

In article , Mike Coslo
writes:

some snippage

Sure enough. Am I an expert in this field? Not hardly. I'm going to
have to launch a few of these things before I can be a neophyte. But I
can do the research, and learn as I go.

And the research says?

My initial research leads me to believe that it is possible to inflate
and release a latex balloon carrying a payload into the Stratosphere.

This is based on the published results of other groups that are doing
this sort of thing at this time.

This is also based on correspondence with two people experienced in
launching similar balloons.

Mt initial research leads me to believe that it is possible to
incorporate into that payload, several devices, including a GPS, various
Amateur radio transceivers, and cameras. This payload may be controlled
by various electronic control systems. Many are using a "Basic Stamp"
processor. This research also leads me to believe that by using a packet
radio system, the information from the GPS and other sensors may be
transmitted to a computer that can keep track of the payload.

This is based on what others are doing at this time, and some basic
radio knowledge and knowledge of size and weight requirements and known
equipment that fits the requirements.

My initial research leads me to believe that I can construct a payload
that will adequately protect the equipment from the low temperatures
encountered in this area of the stratosphere.

This is based on what others are doing at this time. Although more
extensive calculations might be performed to find an ideal amount of
insulation, it must be noted that those projects that are using simple
insulation such as foam sheathing are not experiencing cold related
failures. This leads me to conclude that at worst, a derivative sort of
payload container might be made and operate successfully.

IOW: "If it happens, it must be possible".

If for some reason more research was needed an experiment might be
arranged where the payload was packaged in Dry ice for say 5 hours -
this would be much longer than any anticipated mission, and with dry ice
having a temperature of around -109F, we could make a reasonable
approximation of the altitude conditions, temperature- wise.

You might want to recheck the temperature of frozen CO2, but the concept is
valid.

My initial research leads me to believe that small science experiments
might be performed on this payload, as long as the aggregate weight is
within payload limits.

Yeah, you know.... people blah blah blah.

My initial research leads me to believe that this can be achieved at a
reasonable cost. Reasonable is quite relative, of course, but with 40
dollar type prices for balloons, and around 50 dollars per launch of
helium, (less for hydrogen) the relative inexpensiveness of payload
construction materials, and that except for the unexpected loss of
damage of a payload, the payload parts are multi-mission, the price per
launch can be kept in the 200 dollar range. If used/donated parts can be
utilized, the cost can be reduced even more.

There's also the fact of free labor, and donation of incidental expenses like
fuel and food.

Note that I am not trying to advertise this as some sort of el cheapo
project. When I say surprisingly inexpensive, I mean that at least in my
case, I would have guessed that this sort of thing would have cost many
thousands of dollars per launch. It doesn't appear to. If it would cost
us that much, we are doing something different than the other folks that
are doing this.

Yup.

My initial research leads me to believe that the powers that be do not
place undue restrictions on these launches.

I conclude this by the relevant documents that are issued by the FAA,
and the accounts by the people that are doing this sort of thing.

So it looks like you've "done your homework"..

And this is a bad thing - how?

Well, you might actually get some balloons launched, and prove Len to be
absolutely wrong.....

Yup. Despite his *tables*

The tables will show that a properly-designed "latex weather ballon" can
reach 100,000 feet. Remember:

"If it happens, it must be possible"

A lack of
hands-on experience has not held you back......why should it apply
differently to others?

Hasn't held Len back, even when he's wrong!!
[i]
It would be interesting to know what are the "many topics where
have no empirical experience, just your own knowledge and various
articles that you have read"

Hmmm?

Lessee, there is a first person/second person shift in there, so I
wasn't sure how to answer.

But I'll take a stab. I would think that most everyone here - in fact
most everyone everywhere - gives daily pronouncements on things that
they have not done.

It isn't a problem. While there is nothing like first hand experience,
there is nothing wrong with acquiring knowledge from references and
passing it on. Otherwise how could people "know" that a bullet fired
from a gun will do bodily damage. How would they know that potato chips
taste good. How would they know that if they stuck their head underwater
and took a deep breath, they probably wouldn't like the results We HAVE
to take some info as real without experience. We cannot be skeptical of
everything, every waking moment.

Have I said *anyone* should not post here?

I think Leo believes that I should simply accept that some people think
that I cannot do this, and simply slink away. I do reserve the right to
reply (and to not be too happy about it) when I am called incompetent!
Sorry Leo - it works both ways! 8^)

And perhaps you can't do it *all by yourself*. But you don't plan to -
your
method is to assemble a team, not be the sole basement inventor.

Right, I have no intention of doing it by myself.

Which means your resources have been multiplied.


My point is that it is a few square inches of material that is stopping
a big car. It isn't necessarily intuitive that it will do it.

Not at first.

And as you say, Jim. People are doing it, so it works.

No special dispensation is available for good intentions, amateur
radio or raw motivation and determination - they are absolute.

What laws of physics absolutely prevent Mike from succeeding? From what
I've
seen and calculated, his main limitation may be airspace regulations
here
in
EPA - a place where I do have some empirical experience.

And that is one of the big considerations.

But those aren't laws of physics - they're regulations imposed by humans
.for

obvious reasons.

They
aren't saying that you're nuts to be considering doing what you
intend
to do, but they are offering you the benefit of their understanding
of
engineering and physics as it pertains to your project.

Perhaps we've been reading different posts...

I respectfully suggest that you've been too busy (once again)
focussing on the poster rather than the material posted.

I suggest that the person posting that "latex weather balloons cannot reach
100,000 feet is simply wrong.

Or complexly wrong. But no doubt, wrong!

Not that he will ever admit it.

You mean the way Len says something rather than what he says?

Because we can have a civil discussion?

Exactly.

I think some people assume that the newsgroup is only for arguments and
antagonistic behavior.

Seems that way..

Jim, whether
you happen to like or agree with the messenger or not, the laws of
physics could care less! They remain absolute.

What laws of physics absolutely prevent Mike from succeeding?

Hmmm?

The trick here is finding a way to accomplish the task within physical
law. In engineering, this requires a rigorous analysis of all facets
of the problem at hand - a list of problems impeding the design goal
is developed, and solutions are proposed for each until all have been
satisfactorily resolved.

Engineering 101, freshman years stuff.

Jim, can you honestly say that as an engineer that you have solved all
the problems on any project satisfactorily?

Satisfactorily? Yes. Perfectly? No.

Or have you accepted the
results and wanted to do better?

Any honest engineer will tell you that there were better ways to have done
it =
after it's done.

By the above definition, engineering tasks would probably never get done.

If there's too much insistence on perfection, nothing can ever happen.

There's
*always* another level of documentation, testing, analysis, etc., that
could be
done.

All depends on how we define "satisfactorily". For example, suppose a
project
demands that a system have MTBF of, say, 100,000 hours, as measured under
certain specified conditions. If a system is designed that meets that
specification, it's "satisfactory". 99,999 hours is not satisfactory,
unless
the writer(s) of the specification rewrite it.

Of course if the design turns out to have MTBF of, say, 250,000 hours,
that's
great - but only if it does not adversely affect other requirements.

The posts that we saw earlier were the
beginnings of the issues list - responding to it with "it's been done,
it'll work, no problemo!" - type platitudes ain't going to resolve the
issues - it's just wishful thinking. Or perhaps no thinking at all.

No, it isn't.

Not to mention, I never said those words in quotes! I don't know why
I'm attributed to saying things I never said!

True enough.

At least two out the three are willing to look at the websites.

Len isn't. Says it all.

Well, it *would* be confusing wouldn't it?

Len's just wrong about the latex weather balloons. Not confusing at all.


What I like (not) is that when I'm told both that it is impossible
(with insinuations as to my lack of knowledge of basic physics), and
again with a direct comment as to my lack of competency, I am somehow
the petulant one.

Classic Len trick. Acts like a complete jackass, then says *he's* the
injured party and *you* are acting inappropriately.

The term for such behavior in these parts is "being a smack".

I do want to get beyond this, but it goes both ways.

Three words: Eagles tailgate party.

I don't believe that people have Eagles tailgate parties! Can't be.
I've been to Philadelphia many times, and I have not seen one Eagles
tailgate party. Besides, the owners of the stadium would NEVER allow
tailgate parties in the parking lots outside the stadium. The liability
issues would be tremendous. Besides, you need to produce the
calculations that show that you could pack people into a car, add food,
and set up and feed them outside the stadium. How many Eagles tailgate
parties have you put on. You cannot comment on an Eagles tailgate party
unless you have attended and put on on, which you can't do because they
won't allow them anyhow.

haw

Whoeee, now that's a vent! But it does illustrate some of the
frustration I experience while on this subject. I'd love to discuss the
various facets of the project, the equipment, and the policy aspects of
it. (remember this whole thing was brought up in a policy context)

But I can't do that because of the insistence by some that I and others
can't do it for one reason or the other. This in spite of my addressing
every concern.

Of course you can discuss those issues! You just can't discuss them with the
naysayers!

Do you really think Len would have *anything* positive to contribute to the
project?

Just a beacon? How about some telemetry via Morse?

Some do use morse telemetry. Oddly enough, they translate it with
CWGet.

Ugh

I'll probably use packet for telemetry.

Now morse QSO's are a possibility.

I am liking this more and more...


You mean...like somebody who builds an entire ham station out of mostly
recycled parts? And then is called "cheap" because it only him cost $100?

I happen to like being cheap! And I respect it too.

"Cheap" implies shoddiness. I think a better choice is "frugal".

One thing I notice is that there is very little attention given to the
fact
that what you're talking about is an ongoing project consisting of a
series
of
launches. You'll almost certainly not try to reach 100,000 feet on the
first
go. Or the second...


These conditions make it an interesting place to go to. How do we go
there? Weather balloons provide a tantalizing clue. These latex balloons
are launched on a daily basis by various weather agencies, mostly NOAA,
but also at others.



At this point in time, I don't know whether latex ballons can take one of
your packages to 100,000 feet or not.


From what I've read since that sentence was written, it seems very likely
that
"latex weather balloons" can do the job.


Not a problem at all. Questions are good. Skepticism is good. I/we
learn and polish our act that way. Gratuitous insults are bad though!

Did you *really* expect any usable input from Len?

I do know that they can be useful in the
development process.

Here are a couple links: pssst, don't let Leo know I gave you these! ;^)

http://www.eoss.org/pubs/faqloon.htm

This is a gentleman of experience going through a FAQ on the subject.
Part way through, he notes that they use Totex balloons. 800 gram
balloon to lift 3-4 pounds to 100,000 feet, and 1200 gram to lift a 6
pound payload to the same. The company that they buy the balloons from
has a website:

http://www.kaymont.com/pages/home.html

Checking on this website, you'll find that Totex balloons are indeed
made of natural latex rubber, as well as some other interesting stuff.

Back to the EOSS FAQ page, there are a lot of answers there. They also
go into costs, He versus H, power sources, and a lot of other stuff.

"If it happens, it must be possible".

Perhaps you could send a copy of those atmospheric tables up on the first
100,000 foot flight.....

hehe!

Just tuck them in with "Leonard"...


I can go into Foxhunting techniques for landing, but I suspect most
here would know about that already.

There is one really big problem you cannot avoid, though....

Here in EPA, a *lot* of the land surface area is either wooded or developed. Or
water, paved road, etc. This isn't prairie country, like where most of the
launches take place.

The chances that you'll be able to recover the package are adversely affected
by this. If it hangs up 60 feet in a tree, or on a power line, or on top of a
building, it's probably gone forever.

Doesn't mean it can't or shouldn't be done, just that the risk is greater.

73 de Jim, N2EY