Mike Coslo wrote in message ...
Brian Kelly wrote:

Been busy around here for a couple days . . . I know there have been a
number of such efforts over the years as published in QST but I don't
remember the details.

I've posted a project I'm getting started that will go a long way
toward making us look good and helpful and relevant.

Wanna help?

Maybe I'll bite. What's up?

A near space Science project, such as I outlined to Jim, is a great way
for Hams to get involved in a whole lot of fun, and a bit of work, but
that can be fun too.

Essentially we are building and launching "almost satellites". This is
a balloon launched payload that heads to around 100,000 feet or so,
conducting experiments for the duration. The experiments can be just
about anything you can think of that can be done at that altitude. Most
launches are multi-mission, with both science and Ham fun stuff on
board. And of course the Ham fun can be scientific too.

Hams have had fun ballooning for quite a while, but the advent of
inexpensive GPS has changed things dramatically. We now fully expect to
get our payloads back! That wasn't the case not too many years ago.

The balloon is usually one of the latex weather balloon variety. Zero
pressure balloons can be used too, but since they are designed to go up
and stay up for a long time, that would be a more complex proposition.

The payload uses Amateur radio for command and control. At the heart of
the system is a GPS unit in conjunction with a packet radio. The
telemetry data is sent back to earth and kept track of with a computer.
The computer lets us know where the payload is, where it is going and
how fast, and predicts the landing site. Oh, and it's freeware.

In addition, the packet radio can send back other info as the mission
may desire. The mission is often controlled by a microprocessor. To
date, a lot of balloonatics use basic stamp controllers.

Whoa: I'm not trying to pee on your parade here Mike, honest, but
let's take a look at a few immutable physical realities. Temperatures
at 100,000 MSL generally range from -50ºF to -150ºF "depending".
Lightweight (ounces) high-end ($500 class) consumer-level GPS
receivers are rated to temps only down to غ-5ºF and 30,000 MSL max.
altitude. Then comes the same kinds of limits on the rest of the
electronics you're visualizing. How would engineer your way around
these limitations on a freeware budget?


Often a repeater is put on board. A small one has a lot of coverage at
100,000 feet! There is usually a VHF beacon, and occasionally a 10 meter
beacon also, although that is not as prevalent as it was before GPS.

The experiments vary. One of the favorite devices for the grade and
middle school kids is something called a pongsat. This is an experiment
that can be anything that will fit inside a ping-pong ball. Sounds
weird, but there are plenty of small scale experiments that fit the
bill... er, ping-pong ball.

The balloon lifts the payload to the predetermined altitude, and
bursts. The payload drops, and the Ham comms can continue during
descent, although the first few moments after burst can be pretty weird
as the payload often does some pretty strange gyrations until the
parachute can grab some atmosphere. Drops like the proverbial rock.

All this time, the GPS is keeping track of the whereabouts of the
payload. Then at landing, it turns into a foxhunt as the hams use the
beacon transmissions to find the payload. With the advent of us getting
used to the software and the precision with which the GPS can determine
the location, it is not too uncommon for the recovery team to witness
the landing.

From 100,000 the load could easily land downwind a hundred or more
miles away from the launch site.


Launch of one of these things does not take as much bureaucratic red
tape as most people think.

The bureaucrats ain't gonna allow a shot to 100,000 and back down
anywhere east of the Mississippi for obvious reasons and sure as hell
not in PA which leaves me out. You're talking a western badlands
proving grounds level experiment. Good luck with the red tape they'll
smack you with. How much would you budget for liability insurance?

And it can be done for surprisingly little money.

.. . . What's your definition of "surprisingly little money"? .....
from WHO?


The people that are needed are of course Hams, and people with some
programming experience. People with experience building things, and a
meteorologist can't hurt! People that don't mind a drive on a weekend
day to serve on the recovery team. Plenty of subteams, such as payload,
publicity, science, visualization, integration, education liaison. Even
people that might just want to feed all the other reprobates.

This is real stuff. This might spark the interest in science in some
youngster. And that is not only a career choice, but a service to the
country. American scientists are becoming pretty rare.

Its great publicity for Amateur radio.

And we can innovate and experiment. Radio is a pretty mature science
now. It's doubtful that any of us are going to invent a grand new
communication scheme, or an antenna that does DC to daylight, or even
one that is a whole lot better than what we have now. So What we need to
do is to integrate what we have now, and do some innovation with it. We
also need (or at least should) prove our worth to the community.

That we can do it while having fun is a real bonus.

Bag this 100,000 foot thing, you're 'way over your head with it.
You're vision is doable assuming a more reasonable altitude goal as
has already been demonstrated by others. I suggest you pick their
brains and find out how they pulled it off and add some untried new
twists of your own.


- mike KB3EIA -

w3rv

In article ,
(Brian Kelly) writes:

Temperatures
at 100,000 MSL generally range from -50ºF to -150ºF "depending".
Lightweight (ounces) high-end ($500 class) consumer-level GPS
receivers are rated to temps only down to غ-5ºF and 30,000 MSL max.
altitude. Then comes the same kinds of limits on the rest of the
electronics you're visualizing. How would engineer your way around
these limitations on a freeware budget?

Looks like a big challenge may be the engineering of an insulated airtight
container that doesn't weigh much.

73 de Jim, N2EY

N2EY wrote:

In article , Mike Coslo
writes:



Essentially we are building and launching "almost satellites". This is
a balloon launched payload that heads to around 100,000 feet or so,
conducting experiments for the duration.


Ever hear of this guy, Mike?

http://www.centennialofflight.gov/es...ters_and_Dared
evils/Kittinger/EX31.htm

Or this woman:

http://www.stratoquest.com/


Good links. I wish here luck, and his web pages are fascinating. I knew
of his record setting jumo, but the other info was new to me. What I
like is that picture of him immediately after jumping off the platform.
There's a pucker moment!


Quite seriously, I was making a mini pitch here on the newsgroup. To
think that I gave the entirety of my knowledge on the subject is, well,
wrong.


I kinda suspected that...

Besides, the 100,000 foot level is a goal, not something done on the first
flight.

As likely as not, the initial flights will be tethered. Those will
check out the functionality of the equipment. In fact, depending on the
launch day conditions, we may want to peak at decidedly less than
100,000 feet. Altitude is not strictly the goal.



The experiments vary. One of the favorite devices for the grade and
middle school kids is something called a pongsat. This is an experiment
that can be anything that will fit inside a ping-pong ball. Sounds
weird, but there are plenty of small scale experiments that fit the
bill... er, ping-pong ball.


The balloon lifts the payload to the predetermined altitude, and
bursts. The payload drops, and the Ham comms can continue during
descent, although the first few moments after burst can be pretty weird
as the payload often does some pretty strange gyrations until the
parachute can grab some atmosphere. Drops like the proverbial rock.


YEEEHAAAHHHH!!!!!


All this time, the GPS is keeping track of the whereabouts of the
payload. Then at landing, it turns into a foxhunt as the hams use the
beacon transmissions to find the payload. With the advent of us getting
used to the software and the precision with which the GPS can determine
the location, it is not too uncommon for the recovery team to witness
the landing.


Too cool.

Not even imaginable not too long ago.


With all due respect:

http://www.eoss.org/faq/faa_liaison.htm



And it can be done for surprisingly little money.


I suspect a lot of the cost if it were done by professionals would be in the
form of payrolls and benefits...

Big time. Volunteers are the heart and soul of the operation. People
that simply find this sort of thing fascinating.


The people that are needed are of course Hams, and people with some
programming experience. People with experience building things, and a
meteorologist can't hurt! People that don't mind a drive on a weekend
day to serve on the recovery team. Plenty of subteams, such as payload,
publicity, science, visualization, integration, education liaison. Even
people that might just want to feed all the other reprobates.


And people who might just want to make a donation of money or hardware.

Yup. I even have a few HT's to donate to the cause. Bought cheap at
hamfests.


Yes I have. I do this kind of stuff. Some years ago, I organized and
pulled off one of the premier star parties in the Northeast. That
actually took much more red tape than this project.

??

Why would that be?

The party is on state park land in the middle of a state forest. This
meant permits and waivers. This meant The group had to be incorporated
as a nonprofit corporation, with all the legal fees and paperwork
involved with that sort of thing. Compliance with all the park
regulations had to be made, with the exception of the exceptions that
had to be granted, in order to put the thing on. Proofs of insurance of
the correct kind had to be made. Electrical power had to be provided via
another group that owned poles on the property, which ended up with me
having to work with both the group and the local pupblic utilities.

It took me the better part of a year to prepare just that -
disregarding the details of the actual party.


The party is still
going on, although under the new management, it is not as profitable,
despite growing numbers of attendees.



http://www.eoss.org/index.html

http://www.amsat.org/amsat/balloons/balloon.htm

http://www.ansr.org/html/index.php

http://frodo.bruderhof.com/hambone/index.html

http://habitat.netlab.org/index.shtml

http://www.qsl.net/k8uo/UM201.htm

http://balloons.aero.und.edu/habp/

http://www.tc.umn.edu/~tjs//Balloons.html

http://cosmos.aeem.iastate.edu/HABET/

http://www.nstar.org/


oh man....I'm gonna be online a while....

Good luck, Mike. If nothing else, a lot of hams will contribute a few dollars
just to be a small part of it.

Thanks Jim. The initial flights will probably be scaled down proof of
concept ones.

- Mike KB3EIA -

Brian Kelly wrote:

Mike Coslo wrote in message ...

Brian Kelly wrote:


Been busy around here for a couple days . . . I know there have been a
number of such efforts over the years as published in QST but I don't
remember the details.


I've posted a project I'm getting started that will go a long way
toward making us look good and helpful and relevant.

Wanna help?

Maybe I'll bite. What's up?

A near space Science project, such as I outlined to Jim, is a great way
for Hams to get involved in a whole lot of fun, and a bit of work, but
that can be fun too.

Essentially we are building and launching "almost satellites". This is
a balloon launched payload that heads to around 100,000 feet or so,
conducting experiments for the duration. The experiments can be just
about anything you can think of that can be done at that altitude. Most
launches are multi-mission, with both science and Ham fun stuff on
board. And of course the Ham fun can be scientific too.

Hams have had fun ballooning for quite a while, but the advent of
inexpensive GPS has changed things dramatically. We now fully expect to
get our payloads back! That wasn't the case not too many years ago.


The balloon is usually one of the latex weather balloon variety. Zero
pressure balloons can be used too, but since they are designed to go up
and stay up for a long time, that would be a more complex proposition.

The payload uses Amateur radio for command and control. At the heart of
the system is a GPS unit in conjunction with a packet radio. The
telemetry data is sent back to earth and kept track of with a computer.
The computer lets us know where the payload is, where it is going and
how fast, and predicts the landing site. Oh, and it's freeware.

In addition, the packet radio can send back other info as the mission
may desire. The mission is often controlled by a microprocessor. To
date, a lot of balloonatics use basic stamp controllers.


Whoa: I'm not trying to pee on your parade here Mike, honest, but
let's take a look at a few immutable physical realities. Temperatures
at 100,000 MSL generally range from -50ºF to -150ºF "depending".
Lightweight (ounces) high-end ($500 class) consumer-level GPS
receivers are rated to temps only down to غ-5ºF and 30,000 MSL max.
altitude. Then comes the same kinds of limits on the rest of the
electronics you're visualizing. How would engineer your way around
these limitations on a freeware budget?

Good question.

The payload package is often constructed of foam sheathing, such as
used in housing construction. 3/4 or inch sheathing can be cut to shape,
and sealed pretty easily. One of my research sources found that the heat
generated by the electronic equipment nearly matched the heat lost
during flight. The internal temperature actually rose by about a degree.

I do plan on having an internal temperature sensor to get a knowledge
base started of this issue.


Often a repeater is put on board. A small one has a lot of coverage at
100,000 feet! There is usually a VHF beacon, and occasionally a 10 meter
beacon also, although that is not as prevalent as it was before GPS.

The experiments vary. One of the favorite devices for the grade and
middle school kids is something called a pongsat. This is an experiment
that can be anything that will fit inside a ping-pong ball. Sounds
weird, but there are plenty of small scale experiments that fit the
bill... er, ping-pong ball.

The balloon lifts the payload to the predetermined altitude, and
bursts. The payload drops, and the Ham comms can continue during
descent, although the first few moments after burst can be pretty weird
as the payload often does some pretty strange gyrations until the
parachute can grab some atmosphere. Drops like the proverbial rock.

All this time, the GPS is keeping track of the whereabouts of the
payload. Then at landing, it turns into a foxhunt as the hams use the
beacon transmissions to find the payload. With the advent of us getting
used to the software and the precision with which the GPS can determine
the location, it is not too uncommon for the recovery team to witness
the landing.


From 100,000 the load could easily land downwind a hundred or more
miles away from the launch site.

In some cases, yes. Recovery teams will be deployed somewhat east of
the launch site. As the mission profile unfolds, they will head in the
general direction of the predicted landing site.



Launch of one of these things does not take as much bureaucratic red
tape as most people think.


The bureaucrats ain't gonna allow a shot to 100,000 and back down
anywhere east of the Mississippi for obvious reasons and sure as hell
not in PA which leaves me out. You're talking a western badlands
proving grounds level experiment. Good luck with the red tape they'll
smack you with. How much would you budget for liability insurance?

You might want to read the links I provided to Len.

There is a group in Mass doing this right now.

NOAA launches many similar balloons a week in the middle of our town,
which is about three miles away from the local airport. The local
University often launches balloons from the building next to the one I
work in. These are balloon/payload combinations of the same class.



And it can be done for surprisingly little money.


. . . What's your definition of "surprisingly little money"? .....
from WHO?

It's all relative of course. Lets say there is an initial launch where
everything had to be made.

Balloon - cost will vary but typically a latex balloon might cost
between 30.00 to 90.00. Depends on the weight of the payload.

For helium you want to rent the tank and buy the helium, A large tank of
helium, the 5 foot size is around 50.00. takes somewhat less than a tank
to fill a balloon.

Those are the recurring expenses.

There are some other things, such as line to suspend the payload from
the balloon. I'm not going to include that, but it will add a few
dollars to the cost.

(hopefully) non recurring expenses.

If you opt for the insulation based payload box, you'll get a sheet for
around 5 dollars.

GPS - 100 to 200 dollars.

Packet radio,
2 HT's
Recovery beacon
Basic Stamp
Lithium battery pack (semi recurring cost)

What do we want to do here? I have an HT capable of crossband repeating
that I plan on donating to the cause. Cost me 30 dollars at a hamfest.

If I planned on going new, I'd probably purchase a couple of the credit
card type HTs. A small one is good, like the DJS-11T for 79 dollars or a
dual bander like the DJC5T for 149 dollars.

Basic Stamp controller will set us back around 50 dollars.

There are also all the miscellaneous things that are involved in the
project, wiring, circuit boards, connectors etc.

All of this is not all that expensive at all. And there is plenty of
room for scrounging to reduce costs.


The people that are needed are of course Hams, and people with some
programming experience. People with experience building things, and a
meteorologist can't hurt! People that don't mind a drive on a weekend
day to serve on the recovery team. Plenty of subteams, such as payload,
publicity, science, visualization, integration, education liaison. Even
people that might just want to feed all the other reprobates.

This is real stuff. This might spark the interest in science in some
youngster. And that is not only a career choice, but a service to the
country. American scientists are becoming pretty rare.

Its great publicity for Amateur radio.

And we can innovate and experiment. Radio is a pretty mature science
now. It's doubtful that any of us are going to invent a grand new
communication scheme, or an antenna that does DC to daylight, or even
one that is a whole lot better than what we have now. So What we need to
do is to integrate what we have now, and do some innovation with it. We
also need (or at least should) prove our worth to the community.

That we can do it while having fun is a real bonus.


Bag this 100,000 foot thing, you're 'way over your head with it.

Yeah, I like swimming in the deep end.


You're vision is doable assuming a more reasonable altitude goal as
has already been demonstrated by others. I suggest you pick their
brains and find out how they pulled it off and add some untried new
twists of your own.

The altitude is only a small part of the thing. I don't know if you
looked at the links I posted for Len Anderson, but to put it simply,
there are quite a few amateur groups doing this ALREADY. They are doing
it in conjunction with Schools, sending their payloads up, bringing them
back and recovering them. They are doing it from British Columbia to the
Midwest to the East. They are doing it in Australia and in Europe.

I'm not breaking any new ground with the idea of launching anything. My
intentions are the research and payload integration.

- Mike KB3EIA -

N2EY wrote:

In article ,
(Brian Kelly) writes:


Temperatures
at 100,000 MSL generally range from -50ºF to -150ºF "depending".
Lightweight (ounces) high-end ($500 class) consumer-level GPS
receivers are rated to temps only down to غ-5ºF and 30,000 MSL max.
altitude. Then comes the same kinds of limits on the rest of the
electronics you're visualizing. How would engineer your way around
these limitations on a freeware budget?


Looks like a big challenge may be the engineering of an insulated airtight
container that doesn't weigh much.

Home sheathing insulation works like a charm, and is very inexpensive.

Some people have used those cheap insulated picnic coolers.

- Mike KB3EIA -

Mike Coslo wrote in message ...
Brian Kelly wrote:

Mike Coslo wrote in message ...


Whoa: I'm not trying to pee on your parade here Mike, honest, but
let's take a look at a few immutable physical realities. Temperatures
at 100,000 MSL generally range from -50ºF to -150ºF "depending".
Lightweight (ounces) high-end ($500 class) consumer-level GPS
receivers are rated to temps only down to غ-5ºF and 30,000 MSL max.
altitude. Then comes the same kinds of limits on the rest of the
electronics you're visualizing. How would engineer your way around
these limitations on a freeware budget?

Good question.

The payload package is often constructed of foam sheathing, such as
used in housing construction. 3/4 or inch sheathing can be cut to shape,
and sealed pretty easily. One of my research sources found that the heat
generated by the electronic equipment nearly matched the heat lost
during flight. The internal temperature actually rose by about a degree.

I do plan on having an internal temperature sensor to get a knowledge
base started of this issue.

That "knowledge base" has existed going back to the 1800s. Save
yourself from reinventing the wheel and sit in on a Heat Transfer 101
class and learn how to do it all by the numbers on the back of an
envelope.


From 100,000 the load could easily land downwind a hundred or more
miles away from the launch site.

In some cases, yes. Recovery teams will be deployed somewhat east of
the launch site. As the mission profile unfolds, they will head in the
general direction of the predicted landing site.

That might work in Colorado and Arizona but here in the northeast
corridor? Launch from State College PA and the thing drops on a low
income housing project in Brooklyn?


The bureaucrats ain't gonna allow a shot to 100,000 and back down
anywhere east of the Mississippi for obvious reasons and sure as hell
not in PA which leaves me out. You're talking a western badlands
proving grounds level experiment. Good luck with the red tape they'll
smack you with. How much would you budget for liability insurance?

You might want to read the links I provided to Len.

Reading all those would wear out Firefox. But I did scan enough of 'em
to come to realize that you're correct about amateur balloons having
reached 100,000 feet so I have to eat some words I posted.

But you're still going to have to sort your way thru the the very
fuzzy requirements of FAR 101 and I suspect you're seriously
underestimating the amount of drudgery that's likely to take. I've
dealt with the FAA types in the corridor over issues I had with FAR
103. They wound up arguing amongst themselves for months on end I and
gave up trying to get any decisions or answers out of 'em.

I also caught up with the fact that none of these missions can be
insured. And you wanna drop objects out of the sky in an uncontrolled
manner into spots unknown somewhere along the east coast? Fuhgeddit!!

That we can do it while having fun is a real bonus.


Bag this 100,000 foot thing, you're 'way over your head with it.

Yeah, I like swimming in the deep end.

Those of us who have a history of running multidisciplinary
engineering projects usually know better . . . your mileage won't vary
after you get some history behind you . .

The altitude is only a small part of the thing.

.. . . groan! . . . -100ºF is only a small part of it huh?


I'm not breaking any new ground with the idea of launching anything. My
intentions are the research and payload integration.

Welp, good luck with it Mike - Keep us posted.


- Mike KB3EIA -

w3rv

PAMNO (N2EY) wrote in message ...
In article ,
(Brian Kelly) writes:

Temperatures
at 100,000 MSL generally range from -50ºF to -150ºF "depending".
Lightweight (ounces) high-end ($500 class) consumer-level GPS
receivers are rated to temps only down to غ-5ºF and 30,000 MSL max.
altitude. Then comes the same kinds of limits on the rest of the
electronics you're visualizing. How would engineer your way around
these limitations on a freeware budget?

Looks like a big challenge may be the engineering of an insulated airtight
container that doesn't weigh much.

There's no new ground here. PAMNO (N2EY) wrote in message ...
In article ,
(Brian Kelly) writes:

Temperatures
at 100,000 MSL generally range from -50ºF to -150ºF "depending".
Lightweight (ounces) high-end ($500 class) consumer-level GPS
receivers are rated to temps only down to غ-5ºF and 30,000 MSL max.
altitude. Then comes the same kinds of limits on the rest of the
electronics you're visualizing. How would engineer your way around
these limitations on a freeware budget?

Looks like a big challenge may be the engineering of an insulated airtight
container that doesn't weigh much.

There's no new graound here, it's more like a pile of labor than a
real design challenge. If the instrument capsule is sealed at sea
level and flown to 100,000 feet every six inch by six inch x by 3/4
inch thick patch of the foam board will have to survive a 470+/- pound
outward load. Which I doubt will work. So the capsule should be sealed
then evacuated to say 30,000 feet to get those stresses down. I can
take it anywhere from here but I ain't.

Sometimes dumb luck and enthusiasim gets the driveway mechanics there
faster than applied physics does.


73 de Jim, N2EY

w3rv

Brian Kelly wrote:

Mike Coslo wrote:


Yeah, I like swimming in the deep end.


Those of us who have a history of running multidisciplinary
engineering projects usually know better . . . your mileage won't vary
after you get some history behind you . .

Perhaps I should name the project "Icarus"?


The altitude is only a small part of the thing.


. . . groan! . . . -100ºF is only a small part of it huh?

The atmospheric profile shows some interesting things. In the
Troposphere, the temperature drops pretty steadily until around 10 Km,
then it tends to stay pretty consistent until 20 Km. Above 20 Km, the
temperature actually rises somewhat until around 50 Km, at which point
it drops again until around 85 Km. At this point it becomes the
Thermosphere, in which the temperatures rise dramatically - they can get
from 500 to 1500 degrees C. The thermal profiles are by necessity very
general.

So if temps were a very big factor, I'd want to get the balloon through
the 10 Km area pretty quickly, and up to around 30 and a half Km where
it's a little "warmer".


I'm not breaking any new ground with the idea of launching anything. My
intentions are the research and payload integration.


Welp, good luck with it Mike - Keep us posted.


Will do.


- Mike KB3EIA -

In article ,
(William) writes:

(Len Over 21) wrote in message
...
In article , Mike Coslo
writes:

Brian Kelly wrote:
Mike Coslo wrote in message
...

KØHB wrote:

"Mike Coslo" wrote



Twist? A large part of your post was quoting:



The quotes (of the FCC officials) were selected to point out what the
regulators seem to be expecting of us.



I'll assume that you believe what you posted? (correct me if I'm
wrong)



Yes, I believe that is what those regulators said.



I would hope you would set a good example by taking the lead.



I did take the lead, by trying to point out what seems to be the
prevailing regulatory attitude towards us. I further took the lead by
pointing out that I feel the ARRL ought to shift some of the
'political'
spending into programs which sponsor and nuture an attitude of
tinkering
and experimenting among amateurs.



I've posted a project I'm getting started that will go a long way
toward making us look good and helpful and relevant.

Wanna help?



Maybe I'll bite. What's up?

A near space Science project, such as I outlined to Jim, is a great way

for Hams to get involved in a whole lot of fun, and a bit of work, but
that can be fun too.

Essentially we are building and launching "almost satellites". This is
a balloon launched payload that heads to around 100,000 feet or so,
conducting experiments for the duration.

Have you looked at Federal Air Regulations in regard to such
high altitudes? This isn't like hot-air ballooning at low altitudes
where manned free balloons have rights of way over all others.

They need a way to burst the balloon on command (i.e., nichrome wire
wrapped around the balloon plug, a receiver, and a battery),
metallized RADAR reflectors on the instrument chain, and FAA clearance
to launch.

The "command burst" receiver better have some secure coding to
it or some jughead will burst-command it beforehand.

A corner-cube reflector can be done with aluminum foil on a balsa
wood frame...just three mutually-perpendicular planes in that
corner cube, less than a foot in any dimension and still good for
skin tracking.

According to Mike, the FAA is "accommodating." :-)

Back in the 60s the weather folks used to loft a quarter million or
so weather balloons per year...with little transmitters in them and
telemetry done with extremely low-cost electronics. Good example
of doing things simply and for low cost per launch.

They still do. It is called a rawindsonde and the rawin observations
are transmitted over the weather networks and shared worldwide. These
ballons often reach 10MB, but the payload is much smaller than most
EOS amateur projects.

I had one cluttering up the workshop since the 60s. Military type by
the markings. One-shot battery, a simple aneroid bellows driving a
printed-circuit rotary switch to kick in temp and moisture and light
sensors, all of them variable resistive types that changed the rep.
rate of a simple pulse modulator for the combination RCA pencil
triode and cavity oscillator assembly and inverted ground-plane
antenna. All of that went in the dumpster long ago except the
translucent plastic sleeve on the Xmter assembly went two weeks
ago (found it in a box of junk after sorting out the workshop).

The experiments can be just
about anything you can think of that can be done at that altitude. Most
launches are multi-mission, with both science and Ham fun stuff on
board. And of course the Ham fun can be scientific too.

Hams have had fun ballooning for quite a while, but the advent of
inexpensive GPS has changed things dramatically. We now fully expect to
get our payloads back! That wasn't the case not too many years ago.

The balloon is usually one of the latex weather balloon variety. Zero
pressure balloons can be used too, but since they are designed to go up
and stay up for a long time, that would be a more complex proposition.

You need to do some math on that before envisioning such a "low-
cost" approach to get to 100 Kilofeet. Those 8-foot (typical)
"weather balloons" aren't going to get up that high, not even a mass
of them.

You need to consult some (free for the asking) density values of
the atmosphere and some back-of-the-envelope figuring first. Note
that you have to allow for the lifting gas expansion with altitude. It
is far from the same at 100 kilofeet versus sea level.

Lots of expansion.

Tsk. Mike hasn't consulted a Standard Atmosphere table set yet.

100 kilofeet he will NEVER make with some surplus latex weather
balloons.

The payload uses Amateur radio for command and control. At the heart of

the system is a GPS unit in conjunction with a packet radio. The
telemetry data is sent back to earth and kept track of with a computer.
The computer lets us know where the payload is, where it is going and
how fast, and predicts the landing site. Oh, and it's freeware.

That's going to be a minor cost item. As you will find out, the
balloon structure, its support infrastructure, and lifting gas will
cost more than you think..

It all adds up. Might be good idea to get a sponsor.

Tsk. He gots the "recycling" spirit. Maybe he has a new way
to "mine" helium out of the air or ground? [collectors around some
heliarc welders might work? :-) ]

In addition, the packet radio can send back other info as the mission
may desire. The mission is often controlled by a microprocessor. To
date, a lot of balloonatics use basic stamp controllers.

Often a repeater is put on board. A small one has a lot of coverage at
100,000 feet! There is usually a VHF beacon, and occasionally a 10 meter
beacon also, although that is not as prevalent as it was before GPS.

Two words: Payload weight.

You can't get up in the blue sky with lack-of-detail blue sky ideas.

If it were that easy, lots and lots of folks would have done so a
half century ago.

And all of those gps, beacons, packets, thermistors, pressure
transducers, and video cameras and ATV transmitters operate off of
heavy batteries. Luckily the ascent and descent won't be that long,
and the batteries can be scaled back from what is normally required
with one caveat. You'll want the beacon to be operable for several
days, if possible.

Mere details. It is "doing science!" It is "inexpensive!"

One-shot batteries are one source, but they ARE truly one-shot
and can't be recycled afterwards.

The experiments vary. One of the favorite devices for the grade and
middle school kids is something called a pongsat. This is an experiment
that can be anything that will fit inside a ping-pong ball. Sounds
weird, but there are plenty of small scale experiments that fit the
bill... er, ping-pong ball.

The balloon lifts the payload to the predetermined altitude, and
bursts. The payload drops, and the Ham comms can continue during
descent, although the first few moments after burst can be pretty weird
as the payload often does some pretty strange gyrations until the
parachute can grab some atmosphere. Drops like the proverbial rock.

All this time, the GPS is keeping track of the whereabouts of the
payload.

Commercial grade GPS recievers are designed to not work above 60,000
feet. Crazy precaution against strapping one to a missile and using
it as a guidance system.

No sweaty-dah. Seal the GPS unit in more balloon material, it stays
in a local pressure regardless of the vehicle altitude. More or less.

Then at landing, it turns into a foxhunt as the hams use the
beacon transmissions to find the payload. With the advent of us getting
used to the software and the precision with which the GPS can determine
the location, it is not too uncommon for the recovery team to witness
the landing.

Launch of one of these things does not take as much bureaucratic red
tape as most people think.

You've done that? You are going to the edge of the stratosphere and
think you can do so freely? Ain't quite that easy.

And it can be done for surprisingly little money.

"Surprisingly little" is a highly subjective term. Real projects have
quite objective, finite budgets.

The people that are needed are of course Hams, and people with some
programming experience. People with experience building things, and a
meteorologist can't hurt! People that don't mind a drive on a weekend
day to serve on the recovery team. Plenty of subteams, such as payload,
publicity, science, visualization, integration, education liaison. Even
people that might just want to feed all the other reprobates.

Sounds like you've already filled the "executive" position. :-)

This is real stuff. This might spark the interest in science in some
youngster. And that is not only a career choice, but a service to the
country. American scientists are becoming pretty rare.

"Becoming pretty rare?" Not quite as any visit to academia will
show but feel free to get opinionated.

Its great publicity for Amateur radio.

It will get ham radio noticed, but what is written up by journalists
may not be what you expect.

Free ballooning has been going in the USA since 9 January 1793,
the first American flight by Frenchman Jean-Pierre Blanchard,
lifting off from the Walnut Street Prison in colonial Philadelphia.
That was witnessed by none other than President Washington.
[from "Lighter Than Air Flight" by Lt. Col. C. V. Glines, USAF,
Franklin Watts Inc., NYC, 1965, data from pp 29-35] That's over
two centuries of time...

And we can innovate and experiment. Radio is a pretty mature science
now. It's doubtful that any of us are going to invent a grand new
communication scheme, or an antenna that does DC to daylight, or even
one that is a whole lot better than what we have now. So What we need to
do is to integrate what we have now, and do some innovation with it. We
also need (or at least should) prove our worth to the community.

That we can do it while having fun is a real bonus.

You can have all your innovative fun doing many, many things.
Until you find out what helium costs to lift the total balloon (the
balloon itself, its payload, its carrying structure, its all going to
be a pipe dream having no more basis than enthusiasm.

Check out the prices for helium with a gas supplier, plus what it
takes to haul to HEAVY gas cylinders to a launch area, plus the
metering system plus the filling system plus whatever else. All
that after you've investigated what the actual lifting capacity will
be in terms of ounces per cubic feet of balloon. [I said ounces,
not pounds...lighter than air does not mean negative weight]

You could get "efficiency" by going for hydrogen gas...which is
offset by very direct DANGER from many and varied sources.

Yikes! If they use the nichrome wire on the balloon plug trick...

Hydrogen is a very efficient lifting gas. It CAN be generated by
amateurs...chemistry amateurs. Getting into the balloon is going
to be tricky.

Still going for 100,000 foot altitude? Start thinking in terms of
the balloon exapanding to something on the order of EIGHT times
in size at altitude maximum. That's visible on some of the high
altitude research balloon flights of the 1960s using lots and lots
of plastic sheet for balloon material.

Your project may need a virgin...such as Richard Branson...to
help start it off.

Now, if you are REALLY thinking about this whole thing, look into
"Project STAR" and a little thing like a model airplane that crossed
the Atlantic (from Newfoundland to the Irish coast) during the 38
hours in August 9, 10, and 11, 2003. Laugh all you want but a few
guys from around DC managed to do that through GPS guidance
on board as an autopilot. You can read about it at

http://tam.plannet21.com/index.htm

Pictures and stuff to guide you even if you are not into model flying.
38 hours (approx) of powered flight using only 5.5 pounds of fuel,
flight path of 1882 miles. Radio control only for take off and climb-
out, then landing in Ireland...the rest entirely on "autopilot." It had
some means of reporting its position to earth via satellites. That
alone would be of interest to anything else involving GPS location
or guidance.

Search around on the huge NASA website for atmospheric info,
especially for density versus height. You could do an approximate
curve of payload + balloon weight versus cost of helium in hundreds
of cubic feet to whatever altitude limit. That will give you some
realistic viewing into feasibility of it all.



Sounds like fun. Dense air operations in the eastern states may pose
a big problem.

Not to worry. Air carriers are on the "Victor" ways above the max.
balloon altitude. General Av types will be in the denser altitudes
and props will chop it up nicely. :-)

In article , Mike Coslo
writes:

Len Over 21 wrote:


Have you looked at Federal Air Regulations in regard to such
high altitudes? This isn't like hot-air ballooning at low altitudes
where manned free balloons have rights of way over all others.

Yes, I have. They are surprisingly accommodating.

"Accommodating" whom? You didn't sumarize, compose a precis
or anything else. What does the FAR SAY?

Back in the 60s the weather folks used to loft a quarter million or
so weather balloons per year...with little transmitters in them and
telemetry done with extremely low-cost electronics. Good example
of doing things simply and for low cost per launch.

And they still are. One big difference is that they don't attempt to
get their payloads back. They do have a return address on them, and
there is about a 20 percent return rate. That surprised me a bit.

They are? How do you know?


You need to consult some (free for the asking) density values of
the atmosphere and some back-of-the-envelope figuring first. Note
that you have to allow for the lifting gas expansion with altitude. It
is far from the same at 100 kilofeet versus sea level.

Welp, since you didn't really look, here's a capsule from an on-line
calculator:

At 1000 feet, temp 55.4 F, 14.17 PSI, density 1.1896 Kg/cubic meter.

At 10K feet, temp 23.3 F, 10.11 PSI, density 0.9046 Kg/cubic meter.

At 100K feet, temp -50.8 F, 0.1581 PSI, density 0.0167 Kg/cubic meter.

Notice how the DENSITY drops off at a remarkable rate past 10,000
feet. [Density is going to be very important since it will determine
the limit of buoyancy of the whole balloon]


Two words: Payload weight.

You can't get up in the blue sky with lack-of-detail blue sky ideas.

Quite seriously, I was making a mini pitch here on the newsgroup. To
think that I gave the entirety of my knowledge on the subject is, well,
wrong.

Tsk. I didn't see much of any "knowledge" displayed, or any sort of
hard science. The Standard Atmosphere has been public for over a
half century, most countries. While the 1976 model has been revised
a couple times since, the basic data is mostly in refinement.

If it were that easy, lots and lots of folks would have done so a
half century ago.

Back when we had those coal burnin' GPS satellites!

Many, MANY balloons have been lofted (other than rawinsondes)
BEFORE the precursor to GPS, NAVSTAR, was first launched.
That was around 1971 or better than 33 years ago.

Neither GPSS nor NAVSTAR nor GLONASS used "coal" to burn
for anything.


The experiments vary. One of the favorite devices for the grade and
middle school kids is something called a pongsat. This is an experiment
that can be anything that will fit inside a ping-pong ball. Sounds
weird, but there are plenty of small scale experiments that fit the
bill... er, ping-pong ball.

The balloon lifts the payload to the predetermined altitude, and
bursts. The payload drops, and the Ham comms can continue during
descent, although the first few moments after burst can be pretty weird
as the payload often does some pretty strange gyrations until the
parachute can grab some atmosphere. Drops like the proverbial rock.

All this time, the GPS is keeping track of the whereabouts of the
payload. Then at landing, it turns into a foxhunt as the hams use the
beacon transmissions to find the payload. With the advent of us getting
used to the software and the precision with which the GPS can determine
the location, it is not too uncommon for the recovery team to witness
the landing.

Launch of one of these things does not take as much bureaucratic red
tape as most people think.


You've done that? You are going to the edge of the stratosphere and
think you can do so freely? Ain't quite that easy.

With all due respect:

http://www.eoss.org/faq/faa_liaison.htm

Sorry, sport, but 100 kilofeet of altitude is something you will NOT
do with some surplus "latex weather balloons."

10 kilofeet maybe.

It has to do with BUOYANCY. As the density drops, so does the
"lifting power" of the displaced air (from the balloon itself).

Worse yet, as the altitude increases, the pressure drops but the
lifting gas inside the balloon remains at the same pressure...which
will drop depending on the expansion capability of the balloon
material. At some point, the differential pressure can exceed the
strength of the balloon material. Pop goes the balloon.

Could you cite where you got your information?

Yes, I can. Old stuff, really. You can do a search under "standard
atmosphere" and get a whole pot of hits, from NASA through
ordinary-folk sites (some having on-line calculators). There's
enough material in basic text books on atmosphere plus gasses.

And it can be done for surprisingly little money.

"Surprisingly little" is a highly subjective term. Real projects have
quite objective, finite budgets.

And you expect me to post my budget here? "Suprisingly little" is
precise enough for general notes in here.

So far, you've been only as concrete as a pipe dream. Ambiguous
statements.

Now you get all hurt because I post some HARD science figures which
WILL come and bite your project's butt if you don't start getting some
non-ambiguous numbers.

Sounds like you've already filled the "executive" position. :-)

Yes I have. I do this kind of stuff. Some years ago, I organized and
pulled off one of the premier star parties in the Northeast. That
actually took much more red tape than this project. The party is still
going on, although under the new management, it is not as profitable,
despite growing numbers of attendees.

I like organizing groups of people that share a common task.

Wanna help?

"Help" who? Mike Coslo making a name for hisself?

Sorry, in that I am definitely NOT involved.

Balloons have been launched from USA soil for over 200 years.
"New" they are NOT.

This is real stuff. This might spark the interest in science in some
youngster. And that is not only a career choice, but a service to the
country. American scientists are becoming pretty rare.

Tsk. Those "rare" American scientists are still being awarded
Nobel Prizes. Even this year.

"Becoming pretty rare?" Not quite as any visit to academia will
show but feel free to get opinionated.

Heh, Better check the citizenship of those engineering students.

Its great publicity for Amateur radio.

Is it? The globe has been circumnavigated by balloon, millions of
those radio-carrying rawinsondes have been launched and tracked
(by radio, no GPS needed) since they were started. Kids can get
balloons as giveaways in larger stores...or are given out at parties.

It will get ham radio noticed, but what is written up by journalists
may not be what you expect.

Free ballooning has been going in the USA since 9 January 1793,
the first American flight by Frenchman Jean-Pierre Blanchard,
lifting off from the Walnut Street Prison in colonial Philadelphia.
That was witnessed by none other than President Washington.
[from "Lighter Than Air Flight" by Lt. Col. C. V. Glines, USAF,
Franklin Watts Inc., NYC, 1965, data from pp 29-35] That's over
two centuries of time...

Thanks for the balloon history.

Tsk. LOTS more "history" available. I just picked a book from the
shelf at home. Got more on lighter-than-air-flight.


And we can innovate and experiment. Radio is a pretty mature science
now. It's doubtful that any of us are going to invent a grand new
communication scheme, or an antenna that does DC to daylight, or even
one that is a whole lot better than what we have now. So What we need to
do is to integrate what we have now, and do some innovation with it. We
also need (or at least should) prove our worth to the community.

That we can do it while having fun is a real bonus.

You can have all your innovative fun doing many, many things.
Until you find out what helium costs to lift the total balloon (the
balloon itself, its payload, its carrying structure, its all going to
be a pipe dream having no more basis than enthusiasm.

Wanna help?

Sorry, I'm not "involved."

Too much "hot air" being generated on this "idea" and it hasn't
"lifted" me.


Read the links (just a suggestion - I know you don't like being told
what to do) Check out the links. Do a little homework.

"Do a little 'homework?'" Will there be a "test?"

I've been involved in basic atmospheric data at work for decades
AND have done a bit of lighter-than-air flight experiments as a
hobby...including some careful measurements of structures and
gas bag material, lifting power versus temperature and local
pressure, etc.


I usually give you a pass on most things. But dozens of amateurs are
doing this. Now, with real payloads, inexpensively.

You are very, very wrong.

You are very, very petulant.

You give some ambiguous phraseology to the group with a bad "sell"
image and try to flummox someone with the "it's all for ham radio!"
spiel. Not a good way to get a project started.

HARD NUMBERS will give the story's baseline...followed by some
kind of estimate of project cost. The best way is to have some kind
of "rep" behind you.

Case example: Maynard Hill was the builder and trier-outer of the
TAM project (Trans-Atlantic Model). He had been setting model
records (recorded by FAI) for a mere 35 years, mostly in R/C flying
(altitude way up to the 20s of kilofeet, distance better than 750
miles to name two). His local club knew it and formed the "STAR"
group to get in on the TAM. It took OVER two dozen airframes
(built by Hill) to get to the 2003 record breaker after two prior years
of all involved footing their own bills to reach Newfoundland and
Ireland. By the way, amateur radio WAS involved in that effort.

Hill didn't have a big "salesman" pitch. He isn't the type. He
tries...and doesn't make a big noise about it whether winning or
losing...but he generally WINS much more than losing. No blue
skies approach with ambiguous numbers and amorphous
statements..."here's what I think it can do..." followed by some
estimates which were based on lots and lots of past performance.

Now NONE of that model flying thing has any relation to ham
radio (other than ham radio being a help in it) but it DOES serve
to demonstrate that a purely hobby pursuit CAN do things...based
on the can-do types having shown that they can in the past.

So, you want "help?" When you can't even cite some stuff from
the Standard Atmosphere that's been around for longer than half
a century? Not likely from me.