Alun L. Palmer wrote:

Mike Coslo wrote in
:

some snippage



I don't know if any of us geniuses have though about it, but lets
say
in a country where a business can get successfully sued for a woman not
knowing that here hot coffee was hot, and burning herself when trying
to hold the darn thing between her legs. (sorry Phil, but what if she
simply ruined her dress because the coffee was wet?- negligent design
of the cup?)

So lets have a newbie ham that fires up his/her kilowatt rig, and
is
half fried because no one told him not to touch the wirey thingies on
the back of the box thingy. Ohh, I can see the successful lawsuits
already!

I've nailed myself with 50 watts, enough to produce a painful burn
and
a cute little scar on the boo-boo finger. Some dunce that catches a
ride on a thousand watts might just have a very successful lawsuit if
we don't train them well.

RF Safety should be the FIRST order of the day, and NO one should be a
Ham until they are tested for RF safety to the ability to handle full
legal limit.


And those who think that limiting the finals voltage, or some
other
weird thing is the answer, are advised to think about things such as
Technician Hams operating under supervision. It only takes a second to
drop a paper and reach behind a Rig. Less time than the control op can
react. I want those Technicians to be exposed to full power safety
requirements.

Anything else is criminally negligent.


It would be interesting to see what the JA 4th class *written* exam
looks like.

And as mentioned before, the number of JA station licenses and new
operator licenses is way down.



That's 18, I didn't count both Austria and Australia!

OK. But it's still a small fraction of the number of hams
and the number of countries.

The big questions: Must all countries drop the code test
because a few have decided to? Or can each country decide for itself.


Each country can do as it chooses, but the trend is to abolish the
code test.


The trend in most countries is to ban or severely restrict individual
ownership of firearms, too.



Has the change caused lots of new growth in countries that have
dropped code testing?


No, but it's increased HF activity in those countries


So all it's done is to permit *existing* hams to upgrade. But it
*hasn't* brought in lots of new folks.

Which means the Morse code isn't the "problem" some people make it
out
to be.


- Mike KB3EIA -





Well, it is a problem. No-coders may have been in the hobby, but they
couldn't do everything that they wanted to do.

People who have not passed the test have been kept out of things they
want to do in the hobby too.

Not that I'm saying that the
Tech theory should get you full privileges, but there have always been many
Techs who could pass Extra class theory.

Yup, Like me. But I apparently showed the character flaw od learning
Morse code! ;^)

As a guy who can't "hear" people unless he can see the mouth of the
person speaking, I have just a little trouble figuring out the problem
with normal people for which the test is too hard to make it worth
getting a license.

But it is! Witness all those who are dropping off the ranks when their
license expires.

I predict the next tack of the NCI's is that not allowing the codeless
Techs HF access is why they aren't renewing their license.


Herding them above 30 MHz is a
problem, not for you perhaps, but still a problem.

"Herding" is a strange name for allowing access to almost all the
Amateur spectrum.

- Mike KB3EIA -

Mike Coslo wrote in
:

Alun L. Palmer wrote:

Mike Coslo wrote in
:

some snippage



I don't know if any of us geniuses have though about it, but lets
say
in a country where a business can get successfully sued for a woman
not knowing that here hot coffee was hot, and burning herself when
trying to hold the darn thing between her legs. (sorry Phil, but what
if she simply ruined her dress because the coffee was wet?- negligent
design of the cup?)

So lets have a newbie ham that fires up his/her kilowatt rig, and
is
half fried because no one told him not to touch the wirey thingies on
the back of the box thingy. Ohh, I can see the successful lawsuits
already!

I've nailed myself with 50 watts, enough to produce a painful
burn and
a cute little scar on the boo-boo finger. Some dunce that catches a
ride on a thousand watts might just have a very successful lawsuit if
we don't train them well.

RF Safety should be the FIRST order of the day, and NO one should be a
Ham until they are tested for RF safety to the ability to handle full
legal limit.


And those who think that limiting the finals voltage, or some
other
weird thing is the answer, are advised to think about things such as
Technician Hams operating under supervision. It only takes a second to
drop a paper and reach behind a Rig. Less time than the control op can
react. I want those Technicians to be exposed to full power safety
requirements.

Anything else is criminally negligent.


It would be interesting to see what the JA 4th class *written* exam
looks like.

And as mentioned before, the number of JA station licenses and new
operator licenses is way down.



That's 18, I didn't count both Austria and Australia!

OK. But it's still a small fraction of the number of hams
and the number of countries.

The big questions: Must all countries drop the code test because a
few have decided to? Or can each country decide for itself.


Each country can do as it chooses, but the trend is to abolish the
code test.


The trend in most countries is to ban or severely restrict individual
ownership of firearms, too.



Has the change caused lots of new growth in countries that have
dropped code testing?


No, but it's increased HF activity in those countries


So all it's done is to permit *existing* hams to upgrade. But it
*hasn't* brought in lots of new folks.

Which means the Morse code isn't the "problem" some people make
it out
to be.


- Mike KB3EIA -





Well, it is a problem. No-coders may have been in the hobby, but they
couldn't do everything that they wanted to do.

People who have not passed the test have been kept out of things they
want to do in the hobby too.

Not that I'm saying that the
Tech theory should get you full privileges, but there have always been
many Techs who could pass Extra class theory.

Yup, Like me. But I apparently showed the character flaw od
learning
Morse code! ;^)


So did I, but it was hell!

If it wasn't a hazing process, then I'm a Dutchman

As a guy who can't "hear" people unless he can see the mouth of
the
person speaking, I have just a little trouble figuring out the problem
with normal people for which the test is too hard to make it worth
getting a license.

But it is! Witness all those who are dropping off the ranks when
their
license expires.

I predict the next tack of the NCI's is that not allowing the
codeless
Techs HF access is why they aren't renewing their license.


Certainly that must be true of some of them. What proportion, I couldn't
say.


Herding them above 30 MHz is a problem, not for you perhaps, but
still a problem.

"Herding" is a strange name for allowing access to almost all the
Amateur spectrum.

- Mike KB3EIA -


You mean the part that doesn't refract from the ionosphere, right?

73 de Alun, N3KIP

Alun L. Palmer wrote:

Mike Coslo wrote in
:


Alun L. Palmer wrote:


Mike Coslo wrote in
:

some snippage



I don't know if any of us geniuses have though about it, but lets
say
in a country where a business can get successfully sued for a woman
not knowing that here hot coffee was hot, and burning herself when
trying to hold the darn thing between her legs. (sorry Phil, but what
if she simply ruined her dress because the coffee was wet?- negligent
design of the cup?)

So lets have a newbie ham that fires up his/her kilowatt rig, and
is
half fried because no one told him not to touch the wirey thingies on
the back of the box thingy. Ohh, I can see the successful lawsuits
already!

I've nailed myself with 50 watts, enough to produce a painful
burn and
a cute little scar on the boo-boo finger. Some dunce that catches a
ride on a thousand watts might just have a very successful lawsuit if
we don't train them well.

RF Safety should be the FIRST order of the day, and NO one should be a
Ham until they are tested for RF safety to the ability to handle full
legal limit.


And those who think that limiting the finals voltage, or some
other
weird thing is the answer, are advised to think about things such as
Technician Hams operating under supervision. It only takes a second to
drop a paper and reach behind a Rig. Less time than the control op can
react. I want those Technicians to be exposed to full power safety
requirements.

Anything else is criminally negligent.



It would be interesting to see what the JA 4th class *written* exam
looks like.

And as mentioned before, the number of JA station licenses and new
operator licenses is way down.




That's 18, I didn't count both Austria and Australia!

OK. But it's still a small fraction of the number of hams
and the number of countries.

The big questions: Must all countries drop the code test because a
few have decided to? Or can each country decide for itself.


Each country can do as it chooses, but the trend is to abolish the
code test.


The trend in most countries is to ban or severely restrict individual
ownership of firearms, too.




Has the change caused lots of new growth in countries that have
dropped code testing?


No, but it's increased HF activity in those countries


So all it's done is to permit *existing* hams to upgrade. But it
*hasn't* brought in lots of new folks.

Which means the Morse code isn't the "problem" some people make
it out
to be.


- Mike KB3EIA -





Well, it is a problem. No-coders may have been in the hobby, but they
couldn't do everything that they wanted to do.

People who have not passed the test have been kept out of things they
want to do in the hobby too.


Not that I'm saying that the
Tech theory should get you full privileges, but there have always been
many Techs who could pass Extra class theory.

Yup, Like me. But I apparently showed the character flaw od
learning Morse code! ;^)


So did I, but it was hell!

Yeah, for me too! 6 months of daily studying, one failed test, and
finally passing it. I think that my brain processes audio differently
than does those people with normal hearing.

If it wasn't a hazing process, then I'm a Dutchman

Don't take it personally! Some people learn Morse pretty easily, and
for some it is hard. Is it a hazing process if it is easy? Same goes for
the writtens.

I can assure you that no group of Hams ever sat down and said "Let's
give this Coslo guy a rough time and make him learn Morse code".


As a guy who can't "hear" people unless he can see the mouth of
the person speaking, I have just a little trouble figuring out the problem
with normal people for which the test is too hard to make it worth
getting a license.

But it is! Witness all those who are dropping off the ranks when
their license expires.

I predict the next tack of the NCI's is that not allowing the
codeless Techs HF access is why they aren't renewing their license.

Certainly that must be true of some of them. What proportion, I couldn't
say.

That would certainly be an interesting outlook for a person. Let us say
that a person became a ham in 1994, and has a combined intense interest
in operation below 30 MHz, and deep seated conviction against Morse code
testing, leading to refusal to take the Element 1 test.

Somehow doesn't ring true.

I think that those who want to get rid of Element one testing would be
better off to not try that argument.

That would be reminiscent of the old "Jump Frog" joke!


Herding them above 30 MHz is a problem, not for you perhaps, but
still a problem.

"Herding" is a strange name for allowing access to almost all the
Amateur spectrum.

- Mike KB3EIA -



You mean the part that doesn't refract from the ionosphere, right?

Let us not forget 6 meters.

- Mike KB3EIA -

Mike Coslo wrote in
:

Alun L. Palmer wrote:

Mike Coslo wrote in
:


Alun L. Palmer wrote:


Mike Coslo wrote in
:

some snippage



I don't know if any of us geniuses have though about it, but
lets say
in a country where a business can get successfully sued for a woman
not knowing that here hot coffee was hot, and burning herself when
trying to hold the darn thing between her legs. (sorry Phil, but
what if she simply ruined her dress because the coffee was wet?-
negligent design of the cup?)

So lets have a newbie ham that fires up his/her kilowatt rig,
and is
half fried because no one told him not to touch the wirey thingies
on the back of the box thingy. Ohh, I can see the successful
lawsuits already!

I've nailed myself with 50 watts, enough to produce a painful
burn and
a cute little scar on the boo-boo finger. Some dunce that catches a
ride on a thousand watts might just have a very successful lawsuit
if we don't train them well.

RF Safety should be the FIRST order of the day, and NO one should be
a Ham until they are tested for RF safety to the ability to handle
full legal limit.


And those who think that limiting the finals voltage, or some
other
weird thing is the answer, are advised to think about things such as
Technician Hams operating under supervision. It only takes a second
to drop a paper and reach behind a Rig. Less time than the control
op can react. I want those Technicians to be exposed to full power
safety requirements.

Anything else is criminally negligent.



It would be interesting to see what the JA 4th class *written* exam
looks like.

And as mentioned before, the number of JA station licenses and new
operator licenses is way down.




That's 18, I didn't count both Austria and Australia!

OK. But it's still a small fraction of the number of hams
and the number of countries.

The big questions: Must all countries drop the code test because
a few have decided to? Or can each country decide for itself.


Each country can do as it chooses, but the trend is to abolish the
code test.


The trend in most countries is to ban or severely restrict
individual ownership of firearms, too.




Has the change caused lots of new growth in countries that have
dropped code testing?


No, but it's increased HF activity in those countries


So all it's done is to permit *existing* hams to upgrade. But it
*hasn't* brought in lots of new folks.

Which means the Morse code isn't the "problem" some people make
it out
to be.


- Mike KB3EIA -





Well, it is a problem. No-coders may have been in the hobby, but they
couldn't do everything that they wanted to do.

People who have not passed the test have been kept out of things they
want to do in the hobby too.


Not that I'm saying that the
Tech theory should get you full privileges, but there have always
been many Techs who could pass Extra class theory.

Yup, Like me. But I apparently showed the character flaw od
learning Morse code! ;^)


So did I, but it was hell!

Yeah, for me too! 6 months of daily studying, one failed test, and
finally passing it. I think that my brain processes audio differently
than does those people with normal hearing.


I have not posted this point for a long time, as it provokes extreme
reactions from the pro code test lobby, but I can beat your 6 months. It
took me 22 years. Can you honestly wonder that I feel the way I do?

If it wasn't a hazing process, then I'm a Dutchman

Don't take it personally! Some people learn Morse pretty easily,
and
for some it is hard. Is it a hazing process if it is easy? Same goes
for the writtens.

I can assure you that no group of Hams ever sat down and said
"Let's
give this Coslo guy a rough time and make him learn Morse code".


As a guy who can't "hear" people unless he can see the mouth of
the person speaking, I have just a little trouble figuring out the
problem with normal people for which the test is too hard to make it
worth getting a license.

But it is! Witness all those who are dropping off the ranks when
their license expires.

I predict the next tack of the NCI's is that not allowing the
codeless Techs HF access is why they aren't renewing their
license.

Certainly that must be true of some of them. What proportion, I
couldn't say.

That would certainly be an interesting outlook for a person. Let
us say
that a person became a ham in 1994, and has a combined intense interest
in operation below 30 MHz, and deep seated conviction against Morse
code testing, leading to refusal to take the Element 1 test.

Somehow doesn't ring true.

It was true enough of me, although I became a no-code ham in 1980 (in the
UK), more or less in defeat at having tried unsuccessfully to learn Morse
code ever since 1970, and passed a code test in 1992.

Getting a no-code licence was something I only did because I was resigned
to not getting the HF access that I wanted. It was a case of thinking it
was silly to stay off the air altogether just because I couldn't get on HF,
and it took me a long time, i.e. 10 years, to grudgingly reach that
conclusion.

Eventually passing the code test was helped by software that didn't exist
back in 1970, and the help of dear friends who took turns to send slow CW
transmissions several times a week that I knew were being done mainly just
for my benefit. Sure, others tuned in, but they stopped sending them when I
passed! I owe them a great deal.

Here's another interesting fact. I was teaching ham radio classes for years
before I passed the bleeping code!

If none of this rings true, I can assure that every word is the truth.

As I said, all of this has been posted here before, but not recently. My
own history hasn't proved as effective as an argument as simply pointing
out that none of the arguments in favour of retaining code testing hold as
much water as a leaky bucket!


I think that those who want to get rid of Element one testing
would be
better off to not try that argument.

That would be reminiscent of the old "Jump Frog" joke!


Except that the circumstances I describe never struck me as a joke.


Herding them above 30 MHz is a problem, not for you perhaps, but
still a problem.

"Herding" is a strange name for allowing access to almost all the
Amateur spectrum.

- Mike KB3EIA -



You mean the part that doesn't refract from the ionosphere, right?

Let us not forget 6 meters.

- Mike KB3EIA -



The magic band is the exception that proves the rule!

73 de Alun, N3KIP, G8VUK

Alun L. Palmer wrote:

Mike Coslo wrote in
:


Alun L. Palmer wrote:


Mike Coslo wrote in
:



Alun L. Palmer wrote:



Mike Coslo wrote in
:

some snippage



I don't know if any of us geniuses have though about it, but
lets say
in a country where a business can get successfully sued for a woman
not knowing that here hot coffee was hot, and burning herself when
trying to hold the darn thing between her legs. (sorry Phil, but
what if she simply ruined her dress because the coffee was wet?-
negligent design of the cup?)

So lets have a newbie ham that fires up his/her kilowatt rig,
and is
half fried because no one told him not to touch the wirey thingies
on the back of the box thingy. Ohh, I can see the successful
lawsuits already!

I've nailed myself with 50 watts, enough to produce a painful
burn and
a cute little scar on the boo-boo finger. Some dunce that catches a
ride on a thousand watts might just have a very successful lawsuit
if we don't train them well.

RF Safety should be the FIRST order of the day, and NO one should be
a Ham until they are tested for RF safety to the ability to handle
full legal limit.


And those who think that limiting the finals voltage, or some
other
weird thing is the answer, are advised to think about things such as
Technician Hams operating under supervision. It only takes a second
to drop a paper and reach behind a Rig. Less time than the control
op can react. I want those Technicians to be exposed to full power
safety requirements.

Anything else is criminally negligent.




It would be interesting to see what the JA 4th class *written* exam
looks like.

And as mentioned before, the number of JA station licenses and new
operator licenses is way down.





That's 18, I didn't count both Austria and Australia!

OK. But it's still a small fraction of the number of hams
and the number of countries.

The big questions: Must all countries drop the code test because
a few have decided to? Or can each country decide for itself.


Each country can do as it chooses, but the trend is to abolish the
code test.


The trend in most countries is to ban or severely restrict
individual ownership of firearms, too.





Has the change caused lots of new growth in countries that have
dropped code testing?


No, but it's increased HF activity in those countries


So all it's done is to permit *existing* hams to upgrade. But it
*hasn't* brought in lots of new folks.

Which means the Morse code isn't the "problem" some people make
it out
to be.


- Mike KB3EIA -





Well, it is a problem. No-coders may have been in the hobby, but they
couldn't do everything that they wanted to do.

People who have not passed the test have been kept out of things they
want to do in the hobby too.



Not that I'm saying that the
Tech theory should get you full privileges, but there have always
been many Techs who could pass Extra class theory.

Yup, Like me. But I apparently showed the character flaw od
learning Morse code! ;^)


So did I, but it was hell!

Yeah, for me too! 6 months of daily studying, one failed test, and
finally passing it. I think that my brain processes audio differently
than does those people with normal hearing.



I have not posted this point for a long time, as it provokes extreme
reactions from the pro code test lobby, but I can beat your 6 months. It
took me 22 years. Can you honestly wonder that I feel the way I do?

That is quite a long time. What was the reason that it took you 22
years? My reason was hearing problems, and a presumed mental processing
of sound deficit.

What was the total study time?

If it wasn't a hazing process, then I'm a Dutchman

Don't take it personally! Some people learn Morse pretty easily,
and for some it is hard. Is it a hazing process if it is easy? Same goes
for the writtens. I can assure you that no group of Hams ever sat down and said
"Let's give this Coslo guy a rough time and make him learn Morse code".



As a guy who can't "hear" people unless he can see the mouth of
the person speaking, I have just a little trouble figuring out the
problem with normal people for which the test is too hard to make it
worth getting a license.

But it is! Witness all those who are dropping off the ranks when
their license expires.

I predict the next tack of the NCI's is that not allowing the
codeless Techs HF access is why they aren't renewing their
license.


Certainly that must be true of some of them. What proportion, I
couldn't say.

That would certainly be an interesting outlook for a person. Let
us say
that a person became a ham in 1994, and has a combined intense interest
in operation below 30 MHz, and deep seated conviction against Morse
code testing, leading to refusal to take the Element 1 test.

Somehow doesn't ring true.


It was true enough of me, although I became a no-code ham in 1980 (in the
UK), more or less in defeat at having tried unsuccessfully to learn Morse
code ever since 1970, and passed a code test in 1992.

Getting a no-code licence was something I only did because I was resigned
to not getting the HF access that I wanted. It was a case of thinking it
was silly to stay off the air altogether just because I couldn't get on HF,
and it took me a long time, i.e. 10 years, to grudgingly reach that
conclusion.

Eventually passing the code test was helped by software that didn't exist
back in 1970, and the help of dear friends who took turns to send slow CW
transmissions several times a week that I knew were being done mainly just
for my benefit. Sure, others tuned in, but they stopped sending them when I
passed! I owe them a great deal.

Here's another interesting fact. I was teaching ham radio classes for years
before I passed the bleeping code!

If none of this rings true, I can assure that every word is the truth.

I believe you. And you didn't do what my hypothetical Technician did
either. You kept with it an eventually passed


As I said, all of this has been posted here before, but not recently. My
own history hasn't proved as effective as an argument as simply pointing
out that none of the arguments in favour of retaining code testing hold as
much water as a leaky bucket!

Except here is what I see as the difference. You had difficulties with
Element one, and so did I. You want the test eliminated because you had
a hard time of it. I don't want the test removed just because of my
personal trouble with it.

We all have walls to climb in life. Some peoples walls are higher than
others. I'll climb my own walls, and not try to change everyone elses
walls. YMMV.




I think that those who want to get rid of Element one testing
would be
better off to not try that argument.

That would be reminiscent of the old "Jump Frog" joke!


Except that the circumstances I describe never struck me as a joke.

I had enough problems that it was no joke to me either. But my point
wasn't about the test specifically, it was the conclusion that people
reach regarding Morse code testing and the people coming into or leaving
the ARS.


Just so you know what the joke was about:



A scientist was conducting an experiment.

He took a frog, and sat it on the floor. Then he said:

"Jump, frog, Jump!"

The frog jumps 6 feet.

The scientist writes in his notebook *Frog with four legs jumps 6 feet*.

Then he cuts off one of the frog's legs...

"Jump, frog, Jump!"

The frog jumps 4 feet.

The scientist writes in his notebook *Frog with three legs jumps 4 feet*.

He cuts off another leg.

"Jump, frog, Jump!"

The frog jumps 2 feet.

The scientist writes in his notebook *Frog with two legs jumps 2 feet*.

Then he cuts off the third leg.

"Jump, frog, Jump!"

With a mighty struggle, the frog jumps 1 feet.

The scientist writes in his notebook *Frog with 1 leg jumps 1 foot*.

Then he cuts off the final leg.

"Jump, frog, Jump!"

The frog just sits there.

"Jump, frog, Jump!"

The frog still just sits there.


The scientist writes in his notebook *Frog with no legs is deaf.





Herding them above 30 MHz is a problem, not for you perhaps, but
still a problem.

"Herding" is a strange name for allowing access to almost all the
Amateur spectrum.

- Mike KB3EIA -



You mean the part that doesn't refract from the ionosphere, right?

Let us not forget 6 meters.

- Mike KB3EIA -




The magic band is the exception that proves the rule!

73 de Alun, N3KIP, G8VUK

Mike Coslo wrote in
:

Alun L. Palmer wrote:

Mike Coslo wrote in
:


Alun L. Palmer wrote:


Mike Coslo wrote in
:



Alun L. Palmer wrote:



Mike Coslo wrote in
:

some snippage



I don't know if any of us geniuses have though about it, but
lets say
in a country where a business can get successfully sued for a
woman not knowing that here hot coffee was hot, and burning
herself when trying to hold the darn thing between her legs.
(sorry Phil, but what if she simply ruined her dress because the
coffee was wet?- negligent design of the cup?)

So lets have a newbie ham that fires up his/her kilowatt rig,
and is
half fried because no one told him not to touch the wirey thingies
on the back of the box thingy. Ohh, I can see the successful
lawsuits already!

I've nailed myself with 50 watts, enough to produce a painful
burn and
a cute little scar on the boo-boo finger. Some dunce that catches
a ride on a thousand watts might just have a very successful
lawsuit if we don't train them well.

RF Safety should be the FIRST order of the day, and NO one should
be a Ham until they are tested for RF safety to the ability to
handle full legal limit.


And those who think that limiting the finals voltage, or some
other
weird thing is the answer, are advised to think about things such
as Technician Hams operating under supervision. It only takes a
second to drop a paper and reach behind a Rig. Less time than the
control op can react. I want those Technicians to be exposed to
full power safety requirements.

Anything else is criminally negligent.




It would be interesting to see what the JA 4th class *written*
exam looks like.

And as mentioned before, the number of JA station licenses and
new operator licenses is way down.





That's 18, I didn't count both Austria and Australia!

OK. But it's still a small fraction of the number of hams
and the number of countries.

The big questions: Must all countries drop the code test
because a few have decided to? Or can each country decide for
itself.


Each country can do as it chooses, but the trend is to abolish
the code test.


The trend in most countries is to ban or severely restrict
individual ownership of firearms, too.





Has the change caused lots of new growth in countries that have
dropped code testing?


No, but it's increased HF activity in those countries


So all it's done is to permit *existing* hams to upgrade. But it
*hasn't* brought in lots of new folks.

Which means the Morse code isn't the "problem" some people make
it out
to be.


- Mike KB3EIA -





Well, it is a problem. No-coders may have been in the hobby, but
they couldn't do everything that they wanted to do.

People who have not passed the test have been kept out of things
they want to do in the hobby too.



Not that I'm saying that the
Tech theory should get you full privileges, but there have always
been many Techs who could pass Extra class theory.

Yup, Like me. But I apparently showed the character flaw od
learning Morse code! ;^)


So did I, but it was hell!

Yeah, for me too! 6 months of daily studying, one failed test,
and
finally passing it. I think that my brain processes audio differently
than does those people with normal hearing.



I have not posted this point for a long time, as it provokes extreme
reactions from the pro code test lobby, but I can beat your 6 months.
It took me 22 years. Can you honestly wonder that I feel the way I do?

That is quite a long time. What was the reason that it took you 22
years? My reason was hearing problems, and a presumed mental processing
of sound deficit.


I don't know. My hearing is OK as far as I know.

What was the total study time?

Hard to say. I gave up completely over and over again, but I kept coming
back to it because I still wanted to get on HF.


If it wasn't a hazing process, then I'm a Dutchman

Don't take it personally! Some people learn Morse pretty easily, and
for some it is hard. Is it a hazing process if it is easy? Same goes
for the writtens. I can assure you that no group of Hams ever sat down
and said "Let's give this Coslo guy a rough time and make him learn
Morse code".



As a guy who can't "hear" people unless he can see the mouth of
the person speaking, I have just a little trouble figuring out the
problem with normal people for which the test is too hard to make it
worth getting a license.

But it is! Witness all those who are dropping off the ranks when
their license expires.

I predict the next tack of the NCI's is that not allowing the
codeless Techs HF access is why they aren't renewing their
license.


Certainly that must be true of some of them. What proportion, I
couldn't say.

That would certainly be an interesting outlook for a person. Let
us say
that a person became a ham in 1994, and has a combined intense
interest in operation below 30 MHz, and deep seated conviction against
Morse code testing, leading to refusal to take the Element 1 test.

Somehow doesn't ring true.


It was true enough of me, although I became a no-code ham in 1980 (in
the UK), more or less in defeat at having tried unsuccessfully to
learn Morse code ever since 1970, and passed a code test in 1992.

Getting a no-code licence was something I only did because I was
resigned to not getting the HF access that I wanted. It was a case of
thinking it was silly to stay off the air altogether just because I
couldn't get on HF, and it took me a long time, i.e. 10 years, to
grudgingly reach that conclusion.

Eventually passing the code test was helped by software that didn't
exist back in 1970, and the help of dear friends who took turns to
send slow CW transmissions several times a week that I knew were being
done mainly just for my benefit. Sure, others tuned in, but they
stopped sending them when I passed! I owe them a great deal.

Here's another interesting fact. I was teaching ham radio classes for
years before I passed the bleeping code!

If none of this rings true, I can assure that every word is the truth.

I believe you. And you didn't do what my hypothetical Technician
did
either. You kept with it an eventually passed


Eventually is right


As I said, all of this has been posted here before, but not recently.
My own history hasn't proved as effective as an argument as simply
pointing out that none of the arguments in favour of retaining code
testing hold as much water as a leaky bucket!

Except here is what I see as the difference. You had difficulties
with
Element one, and so did I. You want the test eliminated because you had
a hard time of it. I don't want the test removed just because of my
personal trouble with it.


Six months isn't that long though, is it?

We all have walls to climb in life. Some peoples walls are higher
than
others. I'll climb my own walls, and not try to change everyone elses
walls. YMMV.




I think that those who want to get rid of Element one testing
would be
better off to not try that argument.

That would be reminiscent of the old "Jump Frog" joke!


Except that the circumstances I describe never struck me as a joke.

I had enough problems that it was no joke to me either. But my
point
wasn't about the test specifically, it was the conclusion that people
reach regarding Morse code testing and the people coming into or
leaving the ARS.


I think it's probably true that having the no-code licence has increased
turnover, but we don't know why. Nobody has done any research on this
point.

Doubtless some have used a no-code licence as a substitute for a cellphone.
Doubtless some who had only a passing interest got a Tech licence and then
moved on, but we have to factor in that they had no exposure to HF. I'm
sure that others found that the 'consolation prize' of 50MHz and up wasn't
enough of a consolation to bother renewing.


Just so you know what the joke was about:



A scientist was conducting an experiment.

He took a frog, and sat it on the floor. Then he said:

"Jump, frog, Jump!"

The frog jumps 6 feet.

The scientist writes in his notebook *Frog with four legs jumps 6
feet*.

Then he cuts off one of the frog's legs...

"Jump, frog, Jump!"

The frog jumps 4 feet.

The scientist writes in his notebook *Frog with three legs jumps 4
feet*.

He cuts off another leg.

"Jump, frog, Jump!"

The frog jumps 2 feet.

The scientist writes in his notebook *Frog with two legs jumps 2
feet*.

Then he cuts off the third leg.

"Jump, frog, Jump!"

With a mighty struggle, the frog jumps 1 feet.

The scientist writes in his notebook *Frog with 1 leg jumps 1
foot*.

Then he cuts off the final leg.

"Jump, frog, Jump!"

The frog just sits there.

"Jump, frog, Jump!"

The frog still just sits there.


The scientist writes in his notebook *Frog with no legs is deaf.



Funny in a macabre sort of way, but hard to see the connection.




Herding them above 30 MHz is a problem, not for you perhaps, but
still a problem.

"Herding" is a strange name for allowing access to almost all the
Amateur spectrum.

- Mike KB3EIA -



You mean the part that doesn't refract from the ionosphere, right?

Let us not forget 6 meters.

- Mike KB3EIA -




The magic band is the exception that proves the rule!

73 de Alun, N3KIP, G8VUK

Alun L. Palmer wrote:
Mike Coslo wrote in

stuff sinpped for trying to figure out who said what....



Yeah, for me too! 6 months of daily studying, one failed test,
and finally passing it. I think that my brain processes audio differently
than does those people with normal hearing.



I have not posted this point for a long time, as it provokes extreme
reactions from the pro code test lobby, but I can beat your 6 months.
It took me 22 years. Can you honestly wonder that I feel the way I do?

That is quite a long time. What was the reason that it took you 22
years? My reason was hearing problems, and a presumed mental processing
of sound deficit.



I don't know. My hearing is OK as far as I know.


What was the total study time?


Hard to say. I gave up completely over and over again, but I kept coming
back to it because I still wanted to get on HF.


If it wasn't a hazing process, then I'm a Dutchman

Don't take it personally! Some people learn Morse pretty easily, and
for some it is hard. Is it a hazing process if it is easy? Same goes
for the writtens. I can assure you that no group of Hams ever sat down
and said "Let's give this Coslo guy a rough time and make him learn
Morse code".




As a guy who can't "hear" people unless he can see the mouth of
the person speaking, I have just a little trouble figuring out the
problem with normal people for which the test is too hard to make it
worth getting a license.

But it is! Witness all those who are dropping off the ranks when
their license expires.

I predict the next tack of the NCI's is that not allowing the
codeless Techs HF access is why they aren't renewing their
license.


Certainly that must be true of some of them. What proportion, I
couldn't say.

That would certainly be an interesting outlook for a person. Let
us say
that a person became a ham in 1994, and has a combined intense
interest in operation below 30 MHz, and deep seated conviction against
Morse code testing, leading to refusal to take the Element 1 test.

Somehow doesn't ring true.


It was true enough of me, although I became a no-code ham in 1980 (in
the UK), more or less in defeat at having tried unsuccessfully to
learn Morse code ever since 1970, and passed a code test in 1992.

Getting a no-code licence was something I only did because I was
resigned to not getting the HF access that I wanted. It was a case of
thinking it was silly to stay off the air altogether just because I
couldn't get on HF, and it took me a long time, i.e. 10 years, to
grudgingly reach that conclusion.

Eventually passing the code test was helped by software that didn't
exist back in 1970, and the help of dear friends who took turns to
send slow CW transmissions several times a week that I knew were being
done mainly just for my benefit. Sure, others tuned in, but they
stopped sending them when I passed! I owe them a great deal.

Here's another interesting fact. I was teaching ham radio classes for
years before I passed the bleeping code!

If none of this rings true, I can assure that every word is the truth.

I believe you. And you didn't do what my hypothetical Technician
did
either. You kept with it an eventually passed



Eventually is right


As I said, all of this has been posted here before, but not recently.
My own history hasn't proved as effective as an argument as simply
pointing out that none of the arguments in favour of retaining code
testing hold as much water as a leaky bucket!

Except here is what I see as the difference. You had difficulties
with
Element one, and so did I. You want the test eliminated because you had
a hard time of it. I don't want the test removed just because of my
personal trouble with it.



Six months isn't that long though, is it?

Well, we'd have to adjust it to compare with your metric. My six months
was an intense study period after several fits and starts. I'd probably
have to adjust it to a couple years to compare with your time, as I
passed my GEneral ~ 2 years after I passed my Technician. While I was
studying for the Technician test, I also studied for Element 1.


We all have walls to climb in life. Some peoples walls are higher
than
others. I'll climb my own walls, and not try to change everyone elses
walls. YMMV.




I think that those who want to get rid of Element one testing
would be
better off to not try that argument.

That would be reminiscent of the old "Jump Frog" joke!


Except that the circumstances I describe never struck me as a joke.

I had enough problems that it was no joke to me either. But my
point
wasn't about the test specifically, it was the conclusion that people
reach regarding Morse code testing and the people coming into or
leaving the ARS.



I think it's probably true that having the no-code licence has increased
turnover, but we don't know why. Nobody has done any research on this
point.

Doubtless some have used a no-code licence as a substitute for a cellphone.
Doubtless some who had only a passing interest got a Tech licence and then
moved on, but we have to factor in that they had no exposure to HF. I'm
sure that others found that the 'consolation prize' of 50MHz and up wasn't
enough of a consolation to bother renewing.


Just so you know what the joke was about:



A scientist was conducting an experiment.

He took a frog, and sat it on the floor. Then he said:

"Jump, frog, Jump!"

The frog jumps 6 feet.

The scientist writes in his notebook *Frog with four legs jumps 6
feet*.

Then he cuts off one of the frog's legs...

"Jump, frog, Jump!"

The frog jumps 4 feet.

The scientist writes in his notebook *Frog with three legs jumps 4
feet*.

He cuts off another leg.

"Jump, frog, Jump!"

The frog jumps 2 feet.

The scientist writes in his notebook *Frog with two legs jumps 2
feet*.

Then he cuts off the third leg.

"Jump, frog, Jump!"

With a mighty struggle, the frog jumps 1 feet.

The scientist writes in his notebook *Frog with 1 leg jumps 1
foot*.

Then he cuts off the final leg.

"Jump, frog, Jump!"

The frog just sits there.

"Jump, frog, Jump!"

The frog still just sits there.


The scientist writes in his notebook *Frog with no legs is deaf.




Funny in a macabre sort of way, but hard to see the connection.

Back when I originally made the "Jump frog jump comment, it was about
people making an incorrect or bizzare conclusion from plain evidence.

Where people Might say that the No-Code technicians quit because The
had a license that didn't have Element 1 as a test requirement.

- Mike KB3EIA -

Alun L. Palmer wrote:
Mike Coslo wrote in
:

Alun L. Palmer wrote:

Mike Coslo wrote in
:


Alun L. Palmer wrote:


Mike Coslo wrote in
:

some snippage



I don't know if any of us geniuses have though about it, but
lets say
in a country where a business can get successfully sued for a
woman
not knowing that here hot coffee was hot, and burning herself
when
trying to hold the darn thing between her legs. (sorry Phil, but
what if she simply ruined her dress because the coffee was wet?-
negligent design of the cup?)

The case centered around the fact that the coffee was *extremely* and
unreasonably hot.

So lets have a newbie ham that fires up his/her kilowatt
rig,
and is
half fried because no one told him not to touch the wirey
thingies
on the back of the box thingy. Ohh, I can see the successful
lawsuits already!

So what?

There's no license required to operate houshold appliances, nor power
tools,
which can be extremely dangerous. There's no skills test to pump your
own
gasoline. Or to climb a ladder.

I've nailed myself with 50 watts, enough to produce a
painful
burn and
a cute little scar on the boo-boo finger. Some dunce that
catches a
ride on a thousand watts might just have a very successful
lawsuit
if we don't train them well.

Who are they going to sue? And on what grounds, compared to other
electronic devices?

RF Safety should be the FIRST order of the day, and NO one
should be
a Ham until they are tested for RF safety to the ability to
handle
full legal limit.

The reason for the RF safety questions is to prevent exposing *others*
to
a hazard.

And the FCC has determined that the RF safety requirements of the
Tech test are adequate for hams who use up to 1500 W power output on
"meat-cooking frequencies".

And those who think that limiting the finals voltage, or
some
other
weird thing is the answer, are advised to think about things
such as
Technician Hams operating under supervision. It only takes a
second
to drop a paper and reach behind a Rig. Less time than the
control
op can react. I want those Technicians to be exposed to full
power
safety requirements.

Anything else is criminally negligent.

But they are already tested on full-power requirements.

It would be interesting to see what the JA 4th class *written*
exam
looks like.

And as mentioned before, the number of JA station licenses and
new
operator licenses is way down.

That's 18, I didn't count both Austria and Australia!

OK. But it's still a small fraction of the number of hams
and the number of countries.

The big questions: Must all countries drop the code test
because
a few have decided to? Or can each country decide for itself.



Each country can do as it chooses, but the trend is to abolish
the
code test.

The trend in most countries is to ban or severely restrict
individual ownership of firearms, too.

Has the change caused lots of new growth in countries that
have
dropped code testing?

No, but it's increased HF activity in those countries


So all it's done is to permit *existing* hams to upgrade. But
it
*hasn't* brought in lots of new folks.

Which means the Morse code isn't the "problem" some people
make
it out
to be.


- Mike KB3EIA -

Well, it is a problem. No-coders may have been in the hobby, but
they
couldn't do everything that they wanted to do.

People who have not passed the test have been kept out of things
they
want to do in the hobby too.

Not that I'm saying that the
Tech theory should get you full privileges,

Why shouldn't they?

What is so special about HF that it requires so much more
testing than VHF/UHF?

There's propagation - big deal, it's already covered in the
Tech test, since Techs who have passed code can operate on
4 HF bands.

There's band edges - another no-counter, just add a couple
of questions.

There are no modes, technologies, or power levels allowed
to Generals or Extras that are not allowed to Techs.

So if you say that there is no *need* for code testing
to get a General or Extra, then you must logically also
accept the argument that there is no *need* for about
95% of what's in the General and Extra tests as well.

but there have always
been many Techs who could pass Extra class theory.

Most could not.

Yup, Like me. But I apparently showed the character flaw od
learning Morse code! ;^)

So did I, but it was hell!

Yeah, for me too! 6 months of daily studying, one failed test,
and
finally passing it. I think that my brain processes audio
differently
than does those people with normal hearing.


I have not posted this point for a long time, as it provokes extreme
reactions from the pro code test lobby, but I can beat your 6 months.
It
took me 22 years.

The most extreme reactions I see are those of a few anticode types. Not
you,
Alun.

Can you honestly wonder that I feel the way I do?

Why did it take 22 years?

And didn't you wind up passing the 20 wpm test?

If it wasn't a hazing process, then I'm a Dutchman

Don't take it personally! Some people learn Morse pretty
easily,
and
for some it is hard. Is it a hazing process if it is easy? Same
goes
for the writtens.

Exactly!

Some people have a very hard time with math. Others with rote
memorization
of things like band edges.

I can assure you that no group of Hams ever sat down and said
"Let's
give this Coslo guy a rough time and make him learn Morse code".

As a guy who can't "hear" people unless he can see the mouth
of
the person speaking, I have just a little trouble figuring out the
problem with normal people for which the test is too hard to make
it
worth getting a license.

But it is! Witness all those who are dropping off the ranks
when
their license expires.

I predict the next tack of the NCI's is that not allowing the
codeless Techs HF access is why they aren't renewing their
license.

Certainly that must be true of some of them. What proportion, I
couldn't say.

That would certainly be an interesting outlook for a person.
Let
us say
that a person became a ham in 1994, and has a combined intense
interest
in operation below 30 MHz, and deep seated conviction against Morse
code testing, leading to refusal to take the Element 1 test.

Somehow doesn't ring true.

It was true enough of me, although I became a no-code ham in 1980 (in
the
UK), more or less in defeat at having tried unsuccessfully to learn
Morse
code ever since 1970, and passed a code test in 1992.

Getting a no-code licence was something I only did because I was
resigned
to not getting the HF access that I wanted. It was a case of thinking
it
was silly to stay off the air altogether just because I couldn't get
on HF,
and it took me a long time, i.e. 10 years, to grudgingly reach that
conclusion.

WHat were the tesrt requirements in the UK then? Here in the USA, the
Novice
and Tech were 5 wpm in that time period.

Eventually passing the code test was helped by software that didn't
exist
back in 1970, and the help of dear friends who took turns to send
slow CW
transmissions several times a week that I knew were being done mainly
just
for my benefit. Sure, others tuned in, but they stopped sending them
when I
passed! I owe them a great deal.

Code training software for PCs was common here in EPA by the early
1980s. I still have old copies that run on DOS 3.2..

In the 1970s and 1980s, HF was full of non-amateur Morse operation. And
the
now-changed treaty required code tests.

Here's another interesting fact. I was teaching ham radio classes for
years
before I passed the bleeping code!

If none of this rings true, I can assure that every word is the
truth.

But why did it take you so long, Alun?

What study methods did you use?

And note that here in the USA, full privileges have been available
with just a 5 wpm code test *since 1990*. Of course a medical waiver
was needed before 2000, but all such a waiver required was a simple
letter from a medical doctor.

As I said, all of this has been posted here before, but not recently.
My
own history hasn't proved as effective as an argument as simply
pointing
out that none of the arguments in favour of retaining code testing
hold as
much water as a leaky bucket!

Apply you anticodetest arguments to the written tests. Tell us why most
of the written tests must remain. Heck, NCVEC is already trying to
trash the writtens even more...

Is it *really* so unreasonable to require Element 1? Particularly
considering the training aids and accomodations now available?

73 de Jim, N2EY

wrote:

Alun L. Palmer wrote:

Mike Coslo wrote in
:


Alun L. Palmer wrote:


Mike Coslo wrote in
:



Alun L. Palmer wrote:



Mike Coslo wrote in
:

some snippage



I don't know if any of us geniuses have though about it, but
lets say
in a country where a business can get successfully sued for a
woman not knowing that here hot coffee was hot, and burning herself
when trying to hold the darn thing between her legs. (sorry Phil, but
what if she simply ruined her dress because the coffee was wet?-
negligent design of the cup?)


I wrote a lot of the stuff you are commenting on, Jim. It's a hazard of
us not trimming threads!

The case centered around the fact that the coffee was *extremely* and
unreasonably hot.

Ask 10 people, and you'll get ten different answers if that was the
question. I assume that anything in a styro cup is Hot, until I can
examine it.

So lets have a newbie ham that fires up his/her kilowatt
rig, and is half fried because no one told him not to touch the wirey
thingies on the back of the box thingy. Ohh, I can see the successful
lawsuits already!

So what?

There's no license required to operate houshold appliances, nor power
tools, which can be extremely dangerous. There's no skills test to pump your
own gasoline. Or to climb a ladder.

I've nailed myself with 50 watts, enough to produce a
painful burn and a cute little scar on the boo-boo finger. Some dunce that
catches a ride on a thousand watts might just have a very successful
lawsuit if we don't train them well.


Who are they going to sue?

The manufacturers of equipment, the VEC that administered the test. Find
some deep pockets and sue, sue, sue.

As a little example of the mindset, you might recall an accident along
I-80 last year, a few miles from my QTH. Huge horrible pileup, many
vehicles, many people killed, and a fiery mess that took a long time to
clean up. The accident was related to a snow squall that blew up
unexpectedly, and the excessive speed that the whole group was traveling
at. While no charges were filed against anyone at the time, the families
of the deceased are filing suit against the truck drivers *and* the
companies they worked for. Hopefully the trucking companies have a good
safety program.

And on what grounds, compared to other
electronic devices?

Most of my appliances have warnings on them of electric shock potential,
or of cutting, burning, whatever dangers also. There is a reason why
they are there.


Nobody can be protected completely from a lawsuit. But if you are sued,
you are well served to have forewarned potential litigation adversaries
of the possible dangers of the devices they may use.


RF Safety should be the FIRST order of the day, and NO one
should be a Ham until they are tested for RF safety to the ability to
handle full legal limit.


The reason for the RF safety questions is to prevent exposing *others*
to a hazard.

And the FCC has determined that the RF safety requirements of the
Tech test are adequate for hams who use up to 1500 W power output on
"meat-cooking frequencies".


And those who think that limiting the finals voltage, or
some other weird thing is the answer, are advised to think about things
such as Technician Hams operating under supervision. It only takes a
second to drop a paper and reach behind a Rig. Less time than the
control op can react. I want those Technicians to be exposed to full
power safety requirements. Anything else is criminally negligent.


But they are already tested on full-power requirements.

Yoiks! We're doing major time/subject shifting here, Jim! My comments
several iterations of the thread ago were in relation to possible
changing of test requirements, ala the W5YI proposal, where the
newcomers are given a much simpler test, and things that I consider
critically important, such as not having your hobby kill ya, would be
dropped from the testing.


Everyone may disagree, but that's too bad.


Rest snipped

- Mike KB3EIA -

Mike Coslo wrote:
wrote:

Alun L. Palmer wrote:

Mike Coslo wrote in
:


Alun L. Palmer wrote:


Mike Coslo wrote in
:



Alun L. Palmer wrote:



Mike Coslo wrote in
:

some snippage



I don't know if any of us geniuses have though about it,
but
lets say
in a country where a business can get successfully sued for a
woman not knowing that here hot coffee was hot, and burning
herself
when trying to hold the darn thing between her legs. (sorry
Phil, but
what if she simply ruined her dress because the coffee was
wet?-
negligent design of the cup?)


I wrote a lot of the stuff you are commenting on, Jim. It's a hazard
of
us not trimming threads!

Same points apply

The case centered around the fact that the coffee was *extremely*
and
unreasonably hot.

Ask 10 people, and you'll get ten different answers if that was the
question. I assume that anything in a styro cup is Hot, until I can
examine it.

But hot enough to give you 2nd degree burns?

So lets have a newbie ham that fires up his/her kilowatt
rig, and is half fried because no one told him not to touch
the wirey
thingies on the back of the box thingy. Ohh, I can see the
successful
lawsuits already!

So what?

There's no license required to operate houshold appliances, nor
power
tools, which can be extremely dangerous. There's no skills test to
pump your
own gasoline. Or to climb a ladder.

I've nailed myself with 50 watts, enough to produce a
painful burn and a cute little scar on the boo-boo finger.
Some dunce that
catches a ride on a thousand watts might just have a very
successful
lawsuit if we don't train them well.


Who are they going to sue?

The manufacturers of equipment, the VEC that administered the test.
Find
some deep pockets and sue, sue, sue.

Then we better just give up, because there's no test to use a microwave
oven or a table saw.

One of the most dangerous substances the average person handles is
gasoline, yet there's no test for how to deal with it.

As a little example of the mindset, you might recall an accident
along
I-80 last year, a few miles from my QTH. Huge horrible pileup, many
vehicles, many people killed, and a fiery mess that took a long time
to
clean up. The accident was related to a snow squall that blew up
unexpectedly, and the excessive speed that the whole group was
traveling
at. While no charges were filed against anyone at the time, the
families
of the deceased are filing suit against the truck drivers *and* the
companies they worked for. Hopefully the trucking companies have a
good
safety program.

If someone was following too close for conditions, shouldn't they be
liable?

And on what grounds, compared to other
electronic devices?

Most of my appliances have warnings on them of electric shock
potential,
or of cutting, burning, whatever dangers also. There is a reason why
they are there.

Same warnings are on modern ham gear, aren't they?

Nobody can be protected completely from a lawsuit. But if you are
sued,
you are well served to have forewarned potential litigation
adversaries
of the possible dangers of the devices they may use.

Couple of stickers on the TS-50 and done. No need for a test, right?

RF Safety should be the FIRST order of the day, and NO one
should be a Ham until they are tested for RF safety to the
ability to
handle full legal limit.

The reason for the RF safety questions is to prevent exposing
*others*
to a hazard.

And the FCC has determined that the RF safety requirements of the
Tech test are adequate for hams who use up to 1500 W power output
on
"meat-cooking frequencies".

They're the *expert agency*, not the VEs or VECs. Heck, NCVEC wants to
*lower* the written exams - too much math and regs, sez they.

Shall we revisit "Amateur Radio in the 21st Century"? I wonder if Len
Anderson and Brian Burke have read that wonderful piece, and what they
think of it.

I recommend it to all. Tells ya what the next step is.

And those who think that limiting the finals voltage, or
some other weird thing is the answer, are advised to think
about things
such as Technician Hams operating under supervision. It only
takes a
second to drop a paper and reach behind a Rig. Less time than
the
control op can react. I want those Technicians to be exposed
to full
power safety requirements. Anything else is criminally
negligent.


But they are already tested on full-power requirements.

Yoiks! We're doing major time/subject shifting here, Jim! My
comments
several iterations of the thread ago were in relation to possible
changing of test requirements, ala the W5YI proposal, where the
newcomers are given a much simpler test, and things that I consider
critically important, such as not having your hobby kill ya, would be

dropped from the testing.

Not the W5YI proposal - trhe NCVEC proposal.


Everyone may disagree, but that's too bad.


73 de Jim, N2EY