Dave Heil wrote:

You sound like the kind of guy who'd just open 'er up to any guy who
shows any interest at all in amateur radio. No tests. No
qualifications.

Actually, that would be Jim Miccolis, N2EY.

He is the one who proposed "No Test International."

Dave

bb

"Alun L. Palmer" wrote in message
.. .
"Dee Flint" wrote in
:


"Alun L. Palmer" wrote in message
.. .
"Dee Flint" wrote in
:


"Alun L. Palmer" wrote in message
.. .
"Dee Flint" wrote in
:


"robert casey" wrote in message
ink.net...


Earn your priviliges. It isn't impossible.


Just be sure that the things one needs to do to earn the
privileges are revalent to modern ham radio.

Why should ham radio be different than other activities? Most of
the things we do to gain privileges in this world are not relevant
to the privilege itself.

Dee D. Flint, N8UZE




Oh, so everything else is messed up, so ham radio should be messed
up too? Even if I thought it were true, that would still be the
worst argument I have heard yet, ROTFLMAO!



It does not mean that things are messed up. It is simply a fact that
a very effective way to motivate people to do something that they
don't want to do is to tie it to a privilege that they very much
want. Parents do it all the time.

Dee D. Flint, N8UZE




So treat prospective hams like errant children?

No not at all. Let's use a workplace example instead. Many people,
even if they like their jobs, do have elements of the work they don't
like. However they get a reward or privilege in the form of money for
performing those elements.

Dee D. Flint, N8UZE




And Morse isn't an element of my operating, but I had to take a test in
it.
That's like having to take a typing test and then having a secretary to do
your typing.

Well that example proves the point that you don't know what you may need or
want in the future as secretaries are now going the way of the dodo bird in
large part. Almost all employees that have a need to do correspondence do
their own these days in any company that I have been in. The company I work
for right now let their last secretary go about four years ago.

Dee D. Flint, N8UZE

"Alun L. Palmer" wrote in message
.. .
"Dee Flint" wrote in
:


"robert casey" wrote in message
ink.net...




It does not mean that things are messed up. It is simply a fact that
a very effective way to motivate people to do something that they
don't want to do is to tie it to a privilege that they very much
want. Parents do it all the time.


It's one thing for parents to do that sort of thing, but the FCC
isn't our parents. What does the FCC get out of requiring
element 1 nowadays? The treaty requirement is gone, and
no other service uses Morse code anymore. Radio equipment
is more reliable today than 50 years ago. Stuff that took
20 vacuum tubes to do are now on a few ICs, and usually it's the
batteries that crap out before anything else goes out. The
old argument that code equipment is simple and thus more
reliable doesn't really mean much today as it did 50 years ago.

If we want to attract younger people to ham radio, it
would be counter productive to require stuff no longer
relevant to get the license. There's many other activities
that don't require licenses that one could do, and they
could do exactly the interesting parts and ignore the parts not
interesting.

Actually it appears as if it IS the code that attracts young people
simply because it is different. It's the middle aged people who seem
to object most strenuously.

Dee D. Flint, N8UZE




Children find the code a novelty, but that doesn't mean that they are
prepared to learn it

They seem better prepared and more willing than many adults.

Dee D. Flint, N8UZE

"Alun L. Palmer" wrote:

And Morse isn't an element of my operating, but I had to take a test in it.
That's like having to take a typing test and then having a secretary to do
your typing.

Is it like that? Perhaps you can hire a qualified morse op to send and
receive code for you.

Dave K8MN

bb wrote:

Dave Heil wrote:

You sound like the kind of guy who'd just open 'er up to any guy who
shows any interest at all in amateur radio. No tests. No
qualifications.

Actually, that would be Jim Miccolis, N2EY.

He is the one who proposed "No Test International."

Actually, you're just acting silly. Jim made no such proposal.

Dave K8MN

Dave Heil wrote in news:422151B4.2198E17
@earthlink.net:

wrote:

From: "Alun L. Palmer" on Sat, Feb 26 2005 6:48 pm
Buck wrote in
:
On Sat, 26 Feb 2005 04:11:18 GMT, robert casey
wrote:

Apparently the argument causes much pain and suffering among the
already-tested-for-code-and-passed individuals.

It would seem to have caused some pain and suffering in at least one
non-code tested individual. After all, nobody was written more here
about morse code tesing in amateur radio than you...and you aren't even
involved in amateur radio. Poor baby.


The major reason for any sort of "incentive" licensing was to
create the artificiality of some being better than others.

Incentive license was put into place by the FCC. You'll remember them
as the agency responsible for amateur radio licensing and enforcement.
The "some being better than others" was and is quite real. Those
passing more difficult theory exams and (for some classes) higher speed
morse exams were rewarded with more spectrum. Those like yourself, who
never passed any amateur radio licensing exams, had access to no amateur
radio spectrum.

"Upgrades" are rewarded with more status, privilege, and titles.

More titles? Really?


That's very "feel good" for them, as close as we can get to nobility
in this American society.

That it chafes you cause me some mild entertainment.

What seems to have been put aside is that amateur radio
activity is basically a hobby, a personal recreation activity
involving radio, something done for fun. To many, however, it is a
self-righteous quest to be a "somebody," to be more "superior." By
having federal regulations support their views, they fool
themselves into believing they are superior. Ergo, certain
"qualifications" for amateur radio licensing must remain forever
(or as long as the "superior" ones live) because those "superiors"
bought into the old ideas and passed those requirements.

More "Fox and the cashews" from our resident curmudgeon? Why are you
worried about who might be superior to whom in amateur radio, Leonard.
You aren't part of amateur radio. Even if you were, there'd always be
many, regardless of license class, whose skills exceeded your own.

Those who have passed the "mighty" tests sometimes assume way too
much authority for themselves.

What about those who have passed none of the tests, have no amateur
radio licenses and who are not FCC employees? Do they ever attempt to
assume authority over amateur radio for themselves? Would you be such a
fellow?

What
must be the peak (or perhaps nadir) of that is the market
appearance of radio "badges" resembling public safety
officers shields but marked with amateur radio callsigns.
Those who have a foolish need to show they are
"somebody" can purchase one and posture that they are "official"
and thus "very important." :-)

Don't worry, Len. I'm sure the manufacturers will still sell you one.
You can just leave the callsign portion blank. :-)

This is the year 2005 and radio as a communications
tool is 108+ years old. Radio has been continuously
evolving in both technology and application. Governments
now have plenty of radios and communications to do
their tasks, outnumbering amateurs. It is high time that
some olde-tyme hammes realign themselves to the cold, hard facts
that amateur radio remains a hobby.

How about if you "realign" yourself to the fact that amateur radio
remains a hobby in which you are not a participant.

Amateur radio wasn't created in the olde-tymer's visage and it
should be open to all who care to enjoy it.

...and who can pass the exams to do so.

But,
the olde-tymer's don't want that...they lose their rank, status,
title, and privilege if reduced to being just commoners.

You sound like the kind of guy who'd just open 'er up to any guy who
shows any interest at all in amateur radio. No tests. No
qualifications.

Olde-tymers MUST keep the argument going.

Actually, you are the guy who MUST keep the argument going. At present,
it isn't going your way.

They are
"superior" and keep reminding everyone that only They know what is
good for everyone. :-)

That's awfully cute, Len. You aren't even involved and you keep telling
us that you know what's best for amateur radio. :-)



Dave


When they do repeal the code test, we will all have to nag Len to get a
licence, as he will have no excuse

"Dee Flint" wrote in
:


"Alun L. Palmer" wrote in message
.. .
"Dee Flint" wrote in
:


"Alun L. Palmer" wrote in message
.. .
"Dee Flint" wrote in
:


"Alun L. Palmer" wrote in message
.. .
"Dee Flint" wrote in
:


"robert casey" wrote in message
ink.net...


Earn your priviliges. It isn't impossible.


Just be sure that the things one needs to do to earn the
privileges are revalent to modern ham radio.

Why should ham radio be different than other activities? Most of
the things we do to gain privileges in this world are not
relevant to the privilege itself.

Dee D. Flint, N8UZE




Oh, so everything else is messed up, so ham radio should be messed
up too? Even if I thought it were true, that would still be the
worst argument I have heard yet, ROTFLMAO!



It does not mean that things are messed up. It is simply a fact
that a very effective way to motivate people to do something that
they don't want to do is to tie it to a privilege that they very
much want. Parents do it all the time.

Dee D. Flint, N8UZE




So treat prospective hams like errant children?

No not at all. Let's use a workplace example instead. Many people,
even if they like their jobs, do have elements of the work they don't
like. However they get a reward or privilege in the form of money for
performing those elements.

Dee D. Flint, N8UZE




And Morse isn't an element of my operating, but I had to take a test
in it. That's like having to take a typing test and then having a
secretary to do your typing.

Well that example proves the point that you don't know what you may
need or want in the future as secretaries are now going the way of the
dodo bird in large part. Almost all employees that have a need to do
correspondence do their own these days in any company that I have been
in. The company I work for right now let their last secretary go about
four years ago.

Dee D. Flint, N8UZE





Maybe that's a poor example. Perhaps it's more like learning typing to be a
basketball player.

"Dee Flint" wrote in news:8ZqdnafbrtJYe7zfRVn-
:


"Alun L. Palmer" wrote in message
.. .
"Dee Flint" wrote in
:


"robert casey" wrote in message
ink.net...




It does not mean that things are messed up. It is simply a fact that
a very effective way to motivate people to do something that they
don't want to do is to tie it to a privilege that they very much
want. Parents do it all the time.


It's one thing for parents to do that sort of thing, but the FCC
isn't our parents. What does the FCC get out of requiring
element 1 nowadays? The treaty requirement is gone, and
no other service uses Morse code anymore. Radio equipment
is more reliable today than 50 years ago. Stuff that took
20 vacuum tubes to do are now on a few ICs, and usually it's the
batteries that crap out before anything else goes out. The
old argument that code equipment is simple and thus more
reliable doesn't really mean much today as it did 50 years ago.

If we want to attract younger people to ham radio, it
would be counter productive to require stuff no longer
relevant to get the license. There's many other activities
that don't require licenses that one could do, and they
could do exactly the interesting parts and ignore the parts not
interesting.

Actually it appears as if it IS the code that attracts young people
simply because it is different. It's the middle aged people who seem
to object most strenuously.

Dee D. Flint, N8UZE




Children find the code a novelty, but that doesn't mean that they are
prepared to learn it

They seem better prepared and more willing than many adults.

Dee D. Flint, N8UZE




That's true. Perhaps you should propose a maximum age for ham radio
operators?

Dave Heil wrote in news:4221EBFE.2A406BF0
@earthlink.net:

bb wrote:

Dave Heil wrote:

You sound like the kind of guy who'd just open 'er up to any guy who
shows any interest at all in amateur radio. No tests. No
qualifications.

Actually, that would be Jim Miccolis, N2EY.

He is the one who proposed "No Test International."

Actually, you're just acting silly. Jim made no such proposal.

Dave K8MN


He did. Of coutse he was being a devil's advocate, but he was indeed the
one to suggest this.

On Sat, 26 Feb 2005 22:26:31 GMT, robert casey wrote:

It's one thing for parents to do that sort of thing, but the FCC
isn't our parents.

Go to your room without supper.... ggg

--
73 de K2ASP - Phil Kane