wrote:

From: "Alun L. Palmer" on Sat, Feb 26 2005 6:48 pm
Buck wrote in
:
On Sat, 26 Feb 2005 04:11:18 GMT, robert casey

wrote:

Apparently the argument causes much pain and suffering
among the already-tested-for-code-and-passed individuals.

It would seem to have caused some pain and suffering in at least one
non-code tested individual. After all, nobody was written more here
about morse code tesing in amateur radio than you...and you aren't even
involved in amateur radio. Poor baby.


The major reason for any sort of "incentive" licensing was
to create the artificiality of some being better than others.

Incentive license was put into place by the FCC. You'll remember them
as the agency responsible for amateur radio licensing and enforcement.
The "some being better than others" was and is quite real. Those
passing more difficult theory exams and (for some classes) higher speed
morse exams were rewarded with more spectrum. Those like yourself, who
never passed any amateur radio licensing exams, had access to no amateur
radio spectrum.

"Upgrades" are rewarded with more status, privilege, and
titles.

More titles? Really?


That's very "feel good" for them, as close as we can
get to nobility in this American society.

That it chafes you cause me some mild entertainment.

What seems to have been put aside is that amateur radio
activity is basically a hobby, a personal recreation activity
involving radio, something done for fun. To many, however,
it is a self-righteous quest to be a "somebody," to be more
"superior." By having federal regulations support their
views, they fool themselves into believing they are superior.
Ergo, certain "qualifications" for amateur radio licensing
must remain forever (or as long as the "superior" ones
live) because those "superiors" bought into the old ideas
and passed those requirements.

More "Fox and the cashews" from our resident curmudgeon? Why are you
worried about who might be superior to whom in amateur radio, Leonard.
You aren't part of amateur radio. Even if you were, there'd always be
many, regardless of license class, whose skills exceeded your own.

Those who have passed the "mighty" tests sometimes
assume way too much authority for themselves.

What about those who have passed none of the tests, have no amateur
radio licenses and who are not FCC employees? Do they ever attempt to
assume authority over amateur radio for themselves? Would you be such a
fellow?

What
must be the peak (or perhaps nadir) of that is the market
appearance of radio "badges" resembling public safety
officers shields but marked with amateur radio callsigns.
Those who have a foolish need to show they are
"somebody" can purchase one and posture that they
are "official" and thus "very important." :-)

Don't worry, Len. I'm sure the manufacturers will still sell you one.
You can just leave the callsign portion blank. :-)

This is the year 2005 and radio as a communications
tool is 108+ years old. Radio has been continuously
evolving in both technology and application. Governments
now have plenty of radios and communications to do
their tasks, outnumbering amateurs. It is high time that
some olde-tyme hammes realign themselves to the
cold, hard facts that amateur radio remains a hobby.

How about if you "realign" yourself to the fact that amateur radio
remains a hobby in which you are not a participant.

Amateur radio wasn't created in the olde-tymer's visage
and it should be open to all who care to enjoy it.

....and who can pass the exams to do so.

But,
the olde-tymer's don't want that...they lose their rank,
status, title, and privilege if reduced to being just
commoners.

You sound like the kind of guy who'd just open 'er up to any guy who
shows any interest at all in amateur radio. No tests. No
qualifications.

Olde-tymers MUST keep the argument going.

Actually, you are the guy who MUST keep the argument going. At present,
it isn't going your way.

They are
"superior" and keep reminding everyone that only They
know what is good for everyone. :-)

That's awfully cute, Len. You aren't even involved and you keep telling
us that you know what's best for amateur radio. :-)



Dave

Dave Heil wrote:

You sound like the kind of guy who'd just open 'er up to any guy who
shows any interest at all in amateur radio. No tests. No
qualifications.

Actually, that would be Jim Miccolis, N2EY.

He is the one who proposed "No Test International."

Dave

bb

bb wrote:

Dave Heil wrote:

You sound like the kind of guy who'd just open 'er up to any guy who
shows any interest at all in amateur radio. No tests. No
qualifications.

Actually, that would be Jim Miccolis, N2EY.

He is the one who proposed "No Test International."

Actually, you're just acting silly. Jim made no such proposal.

Dave K8MN

Dave Heil wrote in news:4221EBFE.2A406BF0
@earthlink.net:

bb wrote:

Dave Heil wrote:

You sound like the kind of guy who'd just open 'er up to any guy who
shows any interest at all in amateur radio. No tests. No
qualifications.

Actually, that would be Jim Miccolis, N2EY.

He is the one who proposed "No Test International."

Actually, you're just acting silly. Jim made no such proposal.

Dave K8MN


He did. Of coutse he was being a devil's advocate, but he was indeed the
one to suggest this.

"Alun L. Palmer" wrote:

Dave Heil wrote in news:4221EBFE.2A406BF0
@earthlink.net:

bb wrote:

Dave Heil wrote:

You sound like the kind of guy who'd just open 'er up to any guy who
shows any interest at all in amateur radio. No tests. No
qualifications.

Actually, that would be Jim Miccolis, N2EY.

He is the one who proposed "No Test International."

Actually, you're just acting silly. Jim made no such proposal.

Dave K8MN


He did. Of coutse he was being a devil's advocate, but he was indeed the
one to suggest this.

It might have seemed that way to you. It isn't evidenced below. In
fact,
someone else suggested it:

__________________________________________________ ________________________
In article .net,
"Bill Sohl"

writes:
"N2EY" wrote in message
...
In article , "Clint"
rattlehead@computronDOTnet writes:

sending and receiving CW isn't a building block
to anything else.....

Yes, it is.

First, it's a building block to the use of the mode on the air.

Come on Jim. that's a self fullfilling argument.

It's a plain and simple fact.

My point, and I know
you know this, is that morse knowledge is not needed in any manner as
a foundation, stepping stone, or whatever to any body or radio
knowledge
or concepts.

It's not an *absolute* need. But it is a big help for amateurs who want
to
learn about radio. That's my point.

Although other
services have pretty much stopped using Morse Code, hams use it
extensivley,
and an amateur license is permission to operate an amateur station,
not a
station in another service. Note that the Morse Code tests are at a
very
basic level. They're entry-level, nothing more.

Are you afraid that without a code test, people will "pollute the HF
airwaves" with bad morse?

Nope, not at all.

Second, if someone wants to actually design and build radio
equipment,
having
skill in Morse Code permits them to use almost anything from very
simple
to
very sophisticated equipment to good advantage. Would you expect a
newcomer to
radio to build an SSB transceiver as a first project?

They can build whatever they want.

Doesn't answer the question.

If they want to start with a simple
morse
Xmitter then they will learn at least enough morse to be able to use
it.
If they don't self train themselves, the rig will be useless to them.
As
another
point of reference, when I was going for my AAS in electricl
technology we
built a 10 watt CW rig as part of the lab work. We tested it using a
dummy
load and no one had to know even one character of morse to do the lab
work.

And without Morse skill, that project had no practical use once the lab
was
over. With Morse skill, it could have been a very useful transmitter.

There's a big difference between a lab experiment that is done purely
as a
learning tool, and a practical project that not only helps someone
learn *and*
results in a useful radio device.

now, the electrical principals of what a CW
transmission is, and a knowledge test of that is a good idea, but
that's comparing apples and oranges.

Why should there be *any* written test on theory if all a person
wants to
do is
operate manufactured radios? If someone doesn't want to build a rig,
why
should
they have to memorize all those symbols, diagrams and formulas?

IF that's what you believe then go start NTI (No Theory Int'l).

I'm asking a question. *All* license requirements have to justify
themselves,
don't they? Or is that only true for Morse code tests?

I think most of the PCTA
is being disingenuous when they come up with "good reasons"
to keep CW testing alive;

Why?

Actually, they haven't scored even a single point in the arguments
made to the FCC now or in the past.

Has nothing to do with "disingenous".

I think the true deeper reason lies
somewhere in the "I had to do it so everybody should" relm,
as i've stated before.

You can think what you want, but you're mistaken on that account.

Exactly what is it that the PCTAs fear if there is NO morse test
at all?

I don't "fear" anything from code test removal. My *concern* is the
continuing
downward trend in requirements and qualifications.

73 de Jim, N2EY.
__________________________________________________ _______________________

It isn't here, though someone else mentions it:

__________________________________________________ _______________________



In article , Mike Coslo writes:
Actually as a point of interest, and maybe a little trolling, Just
WHY
should there be testing for a ham license?

Because we already know what happens with no testing.

Isn't limiting access to the Airwaves to only those who pass some
kind
of test Elitist?

Nope.

What of those who simply aren't smart enough to pass a test? are
they
not human and have rights?

Everyone has the right to take the test. Nobody has the right to a
guaranteed
pass on the test.

As for RF safety, I would point to the successful efforts of
Motorcycle
riders to abolish helmet rules. It should be the individual's
responsibility to decide if RF safety matters are important to him or
her.

Actually, that makes sense IF the effects can be contained to just the
person
making the decision. But that's rarely the case.

As for mode specific questions, they have no business asking me
about
modes of operation that I am not interested in.

I learned about televison screen aspect ratio and interlaced scanning
because
it was in the Extra study guide back when. I've never operated ATV.

No Test International could be born now!

Thoughts?

See my rant on replacing the code test with a Smith Chart test.

73 de Jim, N2EY
__________________________________________________ _______________________

I think that perhaps you're mistaken. Perhaps you can come up with a
statement by Jim advocating such.

Dave K8MN

Dave Heil wrote in news:422151B4.2198E17
@earthlink.net:

wrote:

From: "Alun L. Palmer" on Sat, Feb 26 2005 6:48 pm
Buck wrote in
:
On Sat, 26 Feb 2005 04:11:18 GMT, robert casey
wrote:

Apparently the argument causes much pain and suffering among the
already-tested-for-code-and-passed individuals.

It would seem to have caused some pain and suffering in at least one
non-code tested individual. After all, nobody was written more here
about morse code tesing in amateur radio than you...and you aren't even
involved in amateur radio. Poor baby.


The major reason for any sort of "incentive" licensing was to
create the artificiality of some being better than others.

Incentive license was put into place by the FCC. You'll remember them
as the agency responsible for amateur radio licensing and enforcement.
The "some being better than others" was and is quite real. Those
passing more difficult theory exams and (for some classes) higher speed
morse exams were rewarded with more spectrum. Those like yourself, who
never passed any amateur radio licensing exams, had access to no amateur
radio spectrum.

"Upgrades" are rewarded with more status, privilege, and titles.

More titles? Really?


That's very "feel good" for them, as close as we can get to nobility
in this American society.

That it chafes you cause me some mild entertainment.

What seems to have been put aside is that amateur radio
activity is basically a hobby, a personal recreation activity
involving radio, something done for fun. To many, however, it is a
self-righteous quest to be a "somebody," to be more "superior." By
having federal regulations support their views, they fool
themselves into believing they are superior. Ergo, certain
"qualifications" for amateur radio licensing must remain forever
(or as long as the "superior" ones live) because those "superiors"
bought into the old ideas and passed those requirements.

More "Fox and the cashews" from our resident curmudgeon? Why are you
worried about who might be superior to whom in amateur radio, Leonard.
You aren't part of amateur radio. Even if you were, there'd always be
many, regardless of license class, whose skills exceeded your own.

Those who have passed the "mighty" tests sometimes assume way too
much authority for themselves.

What about those who have passed none of the tests, have no amateur
radio licenses and who are not FCC employees? Do they ever attempt to
assume authority over amateur radio for themselves? Would you be such a
fellow?

What
must be the peak (or perhaps nadir) of that is the market
appearance of radio "badges" resembling public safety
officers shields but marked with amateur radio callsigns.
Those who have a foolish need to show they are
"somebody" can purchase one and posture that they are "official"
and thus "very important." :-)

Don't worry, Len. I'm sure the manufacturers will still sell you one.
You can just leave the callsign portion blank. :-)

This is the year 2005 and radio as a communications
tool is 108+ years old. Radio has been continuously
evolving in both technology and application. Governments
now have plenty of radios and communications to do
their tasks, outnumbering amateurs. It is high time that
some olde-tyme hammes realign themselves to the cold, hard facts
that amateur radio remains a hobby.

How about if you "realign" yourself to the fact that amateur radio
remains a hobby in which you are not a participant.

Amateur radio wasn't created in the olde-tymer's visage and it
should be open to all who care to enjoy it.

...and who can pass the exams to do so.

But,
the olde-tymer's don't want that...they lose their rank, status,
title, and privilege if reduced to being just commoners.

You sound like the kind of guy who'd just open 'er up to any guy who
shows any interest at all in amateur radio. No tests. No
qualifications.

Olde-tymers MUST keep the argument going.

Actually, you are the guy who MUST keep the argument going. At present,
it isn't going your way.

They are
"superior" and keep reminding everyone that only They know what is
good for everyone. :-)

That's awfully cute, Len. You aren't even involved and you keep telling
us that you know what's best for amateur radio. :-)



Dave


When they do repeal the code test, we will all have to nag Len to get a
licence, as he will have no excuse

"Alun L. Palmer" wrote:

When they do repeal the code test, we will all have to nag Len to get a
licence, as he will have no excuse

Len really has no excuse now. He has had the no code option available
to him for a long, long time now. He has told us on a number of
occasions that HF access has little importance and that all the action
is on the VHF/UHF bands. He could have been there for years with no
morse testing as an excuse. He hasn't overcome inertia.

When and if morse code testing is removed as part of the process in
getting an amateur radio license in the U.S., there are just a few "Len"
scenarios. Leonard could make good on his "Extra right out of the box"
if we redefine the word "right". Len could continue to do nothing about
obtaining an amateur radio license (my guess as a likely scenario). Len
might have to take up an entirely new self-appointment as advocate for
something else in which he is not involved. He might even take up a
different area of amateur radio in which to be a bystander. He is
already priming the pump in rec.radio.amateur.homebrew where he has
recently entertained the troops.

I understand that Len is already eyeing the British Monarchy as a target
for future rants. He has discoverd that the royals have rank, status,
privilege and TITLES. They have a church with a number of parishes
called Saint-something. They and their supports are conservative
traditionalists. The entire British Isles are loaded with lodge halls
repleat with rules for keeping out the riff-raff.

Dave K8MN

Dave Heil wrote in news:42220344.9E902FD4
@earthlink.net:

"Alun L. Palmer" wrote:

When they do repeal the code test, we will all have to nag Len to get a
licence, as he will have no excuse

Len really has no excuse now. He has had the no code option available
to him for a long, long time now. He has told us on a number of
occasions that HF access has little importance and that all the action
is on the VHF/UHF bands. He could have been there for years with no
morse testing as an excuse. He hasn't overcome inertia.

When and if morse code testing is removed as part of the process in
getting an amateur radio license in the U.S., there are just a few "Len"
scenarios. Leonard could make good on his "Extra right out of the box"
if we redefine the word "right". Len could continue to do nothing about
obtaining an amateur radio license (my guess as a likely scenario). Len
might have to take up an entirely new self-appointment as advocate for
something else in which he is not involved. He might even take up a
different area of amateur radio in which to be a bystander. He is
already priming the pump in rec.radio.amateur.homebrew where he has
recently entertained the troops.

I understand that Len is already eyeing the British Monarchy as a target
for future rants. He has discoverd that the royals have rank, status,
privilege and TITLES. They have a church with a number of parishes
called Saint-something. They and their supports are conservative
traditionalists. The entire British Isles are loaded with lodge halls
repleat with rules for keeping out the riff-raff.

Dave K8MN


I'm a VE. Is there some way we could arrange to send three VEs around to
his house when the code test is repealed? We would announce it in advance
of course, to comply with all the rules, on here naturally.

"Alun L. Palmer" wrote:

Dave Heil wrote in news:42220344.9E902FD4
@earthlink.net:

"Alun L. Palmer" wrote:

When they do repeal the code test, we will all have to nag Len to get a
licence, as he will have no excuse

Len really has no excuse now. He has had the no code option available
to him for a long, long time now. He has told us on a number of
occasions that HF access has little importance and that all the action
is on the VHF/UHF bands. He could have been there for years with no
morse testing as an excuse. He hasn't overcome inertia.


I'm a VE. Is there some way we could arrange to send three VEs around to
his house when the code test is repealed? We would announce it in advance
of course, to comply with all the rules, on here naturally.

Brilliant! I don't see how much more convenient it could be.

Dave K8MN

From: "Alun L. Palmer" on Sun, Feb 27 2005 9:43 am

Dave Heil wrote in news:42220344.9E902FD4
:

"Alun L. Palmer" wrote:

When they do repeal the code test, we will all have to nag Len to
get a
licence, as he will have no excuse

Len really has no excuse now. He has had the no code option
available

snip of clotted stuff

I understand that Len is already eyeing the British Monarchy as a
target
for future rants. He has discoverd that the royals have rank,
status,
privilege and TITLES. They have a church with a number of parishes
called Saint-something. They and their supports are conservative
traditionalists. The entire British Isles are loaded with lodge
halls
repleat with rules for keeping out the riff-raff.

Dave K8MN

I'm a VE. Is there some way we could arrange to send three VEs around
to
his house when the code test is repealed? We would announce it in
advance
of course, to comply with all the rules, on here naturally.

What IS the point of all that?

All those who demand EXCLUSIVITY on entrance to this newsgroup
can do so to the proper authorities. Paul Schleck will have the
procedure. RESTRICTING access will be wonderful for all those
who want to lock out all but "their kind" (I should spell
that "thier" in their honor but won't) and they won't suffer
all the outrage of seeing the reality of the rest of the radio
world when they are called wrong. Just think, their own
"clubhouse" where others can't be admitted (nyah, nyah).

Keep everything SECRET, "hams-eyes-only" stuff. Nobody else
can or should know anything.

Tsk.

Years ago, poor Dave wanted to bluster and brag about his really
neat CW on State Department radio in Africa during the '80s. He
made it sound like a major diplomatic save-the-world kind of thing,
even mentioned being in "Guinea-Bisseau" one of those litle-
known and who-cares kind of ex-colonies. He wanted to parade
like a Big Shot using CW for some kind of vital mission when,
supposedly, RTTY wouldn't get through. [spell Shot with an i]

Poor Dave got trumped. He ran into someone who had bigger
experience in government communications that didn't need to
brag. Dave tried and tried to beat that guy down, by any means
possible. He was the "superior!" He ruled. All bow down to
him and all that sort of rot. Dave never forgot.

Now Dave insists on rewriting the past, of saying I wrote one
thing but "really wanted" something different. He has stretched
that to include "topics I will discuss in the future!" Amazing.

So, by all means, have three VEs come to my house when the
code test is eliminated. Hopefully they will come from the east
coast first-class, paying their own way. My address is on my
old Ham Radio Magazine bylines, hasn't changed. ["three
wiseguys out of the east," so to speak]

So, what are those three wisemen, er, VEs going to do?

Administer a TEST whether I want to take one or not? I don't
think so. My representative Mr. Glock will address them in
that case. [he is very accurate]

The three VEs can wait at the curb. If they behave, I might
invite them to the back patio for milk and cookies. Or not.

Now, if EXCLUSIVITY is so very desireable, feel free to try for
private access-by-permission only. That will insulate all the
participants in their "clubhouse" and they can cuss out all
on the outside without being hurt in the process. They know
it all anyway and don't need "outsider" information. They are
"superior!"