Never Mind, Hans, Found it Myself...

Headers quoted for refrence, stuff in between snipped, however the
inquiring mind can certainly follow the headers and verify it's
correctness.

QUOTE:

Newsgroups: rec.radio.amateur.policy
From: (Steve Robeson K4YZ) - Find messages by this author

Date: 22 Dec 2002 00:34:59 GMT
Local: Sat,Dec 21 2002 4:34 pm

From: (Len Over 21)
Date: 12/21/02 2:26 PM Central Standard Time
Message-id:

In a couple of months from now I'll mark my 50th anniversary of
first QSY...(SNIP)

Can't even get the "Q" signals correct for Amatuer application.
Besides,
"Q" signals are NOT used in MILITARY applications, either...

UNQUOTE

Congratulations, Hans! You had to go back three years to find
something you could hang on to, but nice job!

And in YOUR reference:

Sorry, Steve, but "Q" signals (properly called Operating Signals) of
course ARE used in MILITARY applications.

The governing document is ACP-131(E), an unclassified Allied
Communications
Publication (ACP) available on the web for your examination at
http://www.dtic.mil/jcs/j6/cce=ADb/acps/Acp131e.pdf .

Yep...In "MILITARY" communications...Not specifically United
States "MILITARY"...

The document you cited, for the enlightenment of others reading,
is a multi-nation Allied document...

So for that inappropraite choice of language, I stand corrected...

However:

That SAME document goes on to say: (paraphrased...you may
certainly investigate my comments more closely...)

(1) The Q codes (for decode only) are used between military
stations and civil aeronautical or maritime stations.

(2) The Z codes are for military use only. Q signals MAY be used
but are not REQUIRED for use by Allied stations.

Said codes are typically used for Morse or teleprinter
communications. Z-codes are more prevelent in AMERICAN military
communicaitons...

But thanks for pointing out s three year old error, Hans.

I don't suppose you ahve anything more contemporary to address, do
you...?!?!

Steve, K4YZ

"K4YZ" wrote in message
oups.com...


Yep...In "MILITARY" communications...Not specifically United
States "MILITARY"...

The document you cited, for the enlightenment of others reading,
is a multi-nation Allied document...

Nice bit of Andersonian-like misdirection to try to cover your ignorance
(lie?), but welcome to another lesson in US Military Communications, a subject
in which you tried to lecture Len, and now me.

ALL similar publications used by our AMERICAN military communicators are also
used by our military allies. That's why they're call "ACP-xxx". ("ACP" is the
acronym for "Allied Communications Publication")

ACP-113 (Call Sign Book for Ships), ACP-117 (Routing Indicators), ACP-120
(Security), ACP-121 (General Communications Instructions) ACP-124 (CW
Procedures), ACP-125 (Voice Procedures), and many other ACP's are the standard
documents used by United States Military communicators. (The publications cited
are all unclassified, and probably on the web at the JCS site which contains the
ACP-131 which you examined.)

Z-codes are more prevelent in AMERICAN military communicaitons.

Another "error" (lie?). Q-codes are at least as prevelant in AMERICAN military
communications, if not more-so, than "Z" signals. Been there, done that, got
the medals.

For someone who professes to have been seriously involved in one
strictly-AMERICAN military communcations system, NAVMARCORPSMARS, governed by
the publication "NTP-8" ("NTP" being the acronym for Naval Telecommunications
Publication), your ignorance (lie?) is especially odd, since NTP-8 reproduces an
extensive list of "Q" signals taken directly from ACP-131. I would think you'd
have known that you never saw a copy of NTP-8.

Oh, never mind. I forgot that NAVMARCORPSMARS is NOT a military
communications system. "Sorry Hans, MARS IS "Amateur Radio"

But thanks for pointing out s three year old lie, Hans.

You're welcome, Steve.

This lecture brought to you free by K0HB, who hopes that you are not offended by
anything you read, inferred, assumed, presumed or otherwise guessed I might have
possibly meant as demeaning - unless of course you are a pompous
"full-of-yourself" individual who WANTS to be insulted. In which case be my
guest.


ZBM2,

de Hans, K0HB

K=D8HB wrote:
"K4YZ" wrote in message
oups.com...

Yep...In "MILITARY" communications...Not specifically United
States "MILITARY"...

The document you cited, for the enlightenment of others reading,
is a multi-nation Allied document...

Nice bit of Andersonian-like misdirection to try to cover your
ignorance
(lie?), but welcome to another lesson in US Military Communications,
a subject
in which you tried to lecture Len, and now me.

And Steven J. Robeson K4YZ K4CAP K4MARS said that he admits his
mistakes. =20

Perhaps grudgingly, if at all.

"K4YZ" wrote

You had to go back three years to find
something you could hang on to, but nice job!

Nope, less than 2-1/2 years.

Actually you're guilty of only a modest exaggeration, but if Brian or Len had
exaggerated something by a similar ratio you'd have labled them "liars".

I wonder why that is?

de Hans, K0HB

K=D8HB wrote:
"K4YZ" wrote

You had to go back three years to find
something you could hang on to, but nice job!

Nope, less than 2-1/2 years.

Actually you're guilty of only a modest exaggeration, but if Brian or
Len had
exaggerated something by a similar ratio you'd have labled them
"liars".

I wonder why that is?

If Brian or Lennie had such an error pointed out, there'd be a six
month long rant on how licensing in Somalia or how Lennie single
handedly passsed 1.2 million messages at ADA in 1953.

I just acknowledged the error when it was shown and moved on.

Do you wonder why THAT is...???

Steve, K4YZ

From: "K4YZ" on Fri,Apr 29 2005 2:07 am

K=D8=88B wrote:
"K4YZ" wrote

You had to go back three years to find
something you could hang on to, but nice job!

Nope, less than 2-1/2 years.

Actually you're guilty of only a modest exaggeration, but if Brian
or Len had
exaggerated something by a similar ratio you'd have labled them
"liars".

I wonder why that is?

If Brian or Lennie had such an error pointed out, there'd be a
six
month long rant on how licensing in Somalia or how Lennie single
handedly passsed 1.2 million messages at ADA in 1953.

1. Brian had simply mentioned he did some ham radio
from Somalia when he was on active duty, assigned
there. I saw no "discussion of licensing IN Somalia."
I did see a lot of name-calling and general personal
insults directed ON Brian by yourself and Das Kolonel.
Both of you, plus Jimmie Noserve, had tried to pass
yourselves off as "experts" on amateur radio licensing
in trying to INFER that Brian was "breaking the law"
by "not having the 'authorization.'" You know NOT
of such "authorization" and none of the three of you
have ANY authority on that of any kind.

2. I've never claimed credit for "single-handedly passing
1.2 million" anything. What I stated was an
APPROXIMATION of the number of message I was
RESPONSIBLE FOR TRANSMISSION as an OPERATING TEAM
LEADER...not in 1953 but rather late 1954 when I had
the rank (E-5) to BE an Operating Team Leader. It is
obvious to any rational mind that NO ONE PERSON could
possibly transmit 220 thousand messages a month over
a single radio station. That takes teamwork and ALL
on the team MUST do their part.

3. Saying you can read the future is itself a LIE. You
are neither Saint nor Savant With Prescience. Ergo,
you CANNOT say such things as "there'd be a six
month rant" by anyone on anything, especially when
you cannot get your IMAGINED activities by others
factual.

I just acknowledged the error when it was shown and moved on.

That is (probably) the BIGGEST LIE of Robeson. Robeson
tries and tries and tries and tries to turn around ANY
accusation by misdirection, personal insult of others, and
general accusation of misdeeds by his accusers.

1. As an example, when pointed out to Robeson that the
Department of Defense does indeed DIRECT MARS, was
given the exact web link to that DIRECTIVE, spent over
two weeks of messaging AVOIDING his mistake in saying
"MARS IS amateur radio." Robeson could have simply
acknoledged that DIRECTIVE's existance and shut up on
the subject. He did NOT. If Robeson ever said so, he
hid that "acknowledgement" in a smokescreen of verbiage
(mostly garbiage) which still attempted to misdirect
the subject AND managed to level personal insults on
his accusers. There was NO "moving on" but a long,
long, protracted (by the Angle of Dearth) message
exchange where his very real ERROR was NEVER admitted.

2. This newsgroup has been turned into a personal battle-
ground of Robeson's own doing. It has become a cess-
pool of insults, invective, rationalizations leveled
by Robeson in an attempt to show Robeson never, ever
made any mistake...all mistakes are (in Robeson's
output) done by OTHERS. One needs only to look at all
the message thread titles CREATED BY ROBESON where he
practices his ugly invective storm und rang on all
who will not agree with him.

Do you wonder why THAT is...???

Nobody need "wonder" about Robeson's appearance in messages
here. He acts the textbook sociopath, fighting against all
who disagree with him in the slightest. Further, his output
of insults has the (again, textbook) flavor of "progression."
In "progression" he has tried to accuse his accusers of
doing the THE SAME MISDEEDS THAT ROBESON DOES. Robeson says
he "holds a mirror up to a person" but actually he is only
looking at himself in that mirror. Robeson describes
himself, not his accusers. [elementary Psychology 101 and
102 once required courses for a California EE degree]

Someday this newsgroup - if it survives - may actually
discuss POLICY in amateur radio. This week there have been
some ventures into that. However, in the main content of
this cesspool cum newsgroup, most of the topics and the
continuing battle of Robeson against everyone else. :-[

wrote:
From: "K4YZ" on Fri,Apr 29 2005 2:07 am

K=D8=88B wrote:
"K4YZ" wrote

You had to go back three years to find
something you could hang on to, but nice job!

Nope, less than 2-1/2 years.

Actually you're guilty of only a modest exaggeration, but if Brian
or Len had
exaggerated something by a similar ratio you'd have labled them
"liars".

I wonder why that is?

If Brian or Lennie had such an error pointed out, there'd be a
six
month long rant on how licensing in Somalia or how Lennie single
handedly passsed 1.2 million messages at ADA in 1953.

1. Brian had simply mentioned he did some ham radio
from Somalia when he was on active duty, assigned
there. I saw no "discussion of licensing IN Somalia."

I've never seen anyone ask about rear area Army radio stations in
the 50's, Lennie, but you sure do let us know about it.
have ANY authority on that of any kind.
=3D
2. I've never claimed credit for "single-handedly passing
1.2 million" anything.

Your INITIAL claim, before everyone with a grade school mathematics
education put the numbers back in your face was that YOU were
responsible for this feat.

You only changed your story to "team" after a week of being hit
over the head with your silliness.

What I stated was an
APPROXIMATION of the number of message I was
RESPONSIBLE FOR TRANSMISSION as an OPERATING TEAM
LEADER...not in 1953 but rather late 1954 when I had
the rank (E-5) to BE an Operating Team Leader. It is
obvious to any rational mind that NO ONE PERSON could
possibly transmit 220 thousand messages a month over
a single radio station. That takes teamwork and ALL
on the team MUST do their part.

If could have been in ANY time era, Lennie...Your INITIAL "story"
was that YOU were responsible for this feat. "Teamwork" didn't enter
the picture until days later.

Nice try, though.

3. Saying you can read the future is itself a LIE.

I never said I could, Lennie.

I just acknowledged the error when it was shown and moved on.

That is (probably) the BIGGEST LIE of Robeson. Robeson
tries and tries and tries and tries to turn around ANY
accusation by misdirection, personal insult of others, and
general accusation of misdeeds by his accusers.

Ahhhhhhhhhh....I see....Saying that I realized I made a mistake and
accepting that fact is "misdirection"...

1. As an example, when pointed out to Robeson that the
Department of Defense does indeed DIRECT MARS, was
given the exact web link to that DIRECTIVE, spent over
two weeks of messaging AVOIDING his mistake in saying
"MARS IS amateur radio."

You're the one with the misdirection, Lennie.

I NEVER claimed that MARS was under anyone's direction other than
DoD.

I DID say that the same SPIRIT of AMATEUR RADIO was what made MARS
what it is.

Robeson could have simply
acknoledged that DIRECTIVE's existance and shut up on
the subject. He did NOT. If Robeson ever said so, he
hid that "acknowledgement" in a smokescreen of verbiage
(mostly garbiage) which still attempted to misdirect
the subject AND managed to level personal insults on
his accusers.

I'll end this reply right here since THAT claim by Lennie is the
very essence OF Lennie.

Leonard H. Anderson IS a pathological liar!

And putz....

Steve, K4YZ

From: "K4YZ" on Fri,Apr 29 2005 9:54 pm

wrote:
From: "K4YZ" on Fri,Apr 29 2005 2:07 am

K0HB wrote:
"K4YZ" wrote

If Brian or Lennie had such an error pointed out, there'd be a
six
month long rant on how licensing in Somalia or how Lennie single
handedly passsed 1.2 million messages at ADA in 1953.

1. Brian had simply mentioned he did some ham radio
from Somalia when he was on active duty, assigned
there. I saw no "discussion of licensing IN Somalia."

I've never seen anyone ask about rear area Army radio stations in
the 50's, Lennie, but you sure do let us know about it.

Someone has to do it...poor Stevie NEVER did anything
close to such HF communications...as an amateur or
anything else.

Stevie fails to get the point: A half century ago,
the MAJOR message load throughout the U.S. military
was by teleprinter, NOT morse code. Way higher than
90% of ALL message "traffic" in the military. A HALF
CENTURY AGO.

Perhaps nearly a quarter million messages a MONTH is
not enough traffic in your fevered imagination? Tsk.
That kind of traffic was done by the third-largest
Army station in ACAN (later STARCOM, later the DCS
or Defense Communications System)...using the old
60 WPM rate teleprinters. "WAR" (actually RUEP at
Fort Detrick) handled over a MILLION messages per
month.

2. I've never claimed credit for "single-handedly passing
1.2 million" anything.

Your INITIAL claim, before everyone with a grade school
mathematics
education put the numbers back in your face was that YOU were
responsible for this feat.

Tsk, tsk, tsk. You still don't understand what the
word APPROXIMATION means. :-)

Neither transmitters nor receivers personnel kept a
count of the messages going and coming...we kept the
radio equipment OPERATING...most circuits being 24/7.
Traffic Analysis group at Control did the tallying,
primarily for administrative purposes and to gauge
the loading on the many and various radio paths to
the rest of the network. No more than about four,
two in Control (one being the Duty Officer on shift)
and two in the TTY Relay section.

OK, let's do an APPROXIMATION of the numbers based
on very brief data that appeared in the Pacific Stars
& Stripes military newspaper of 1955 (exact issue not
known, not that it matters except to certain pedantic
literalist morsemen)...that being 220,000 messages a
month average in 1955. Based on a 30 day month, that
works out to about 7333 messages a day average...
which is about 2444 messages (average) per 8-hour
shift...or 306 messages an hour (average) or 5
messages a minute (average)...all day, all night,
seven days a week, 52 weeks a year...continuous
traffic...stopped only for about 3 hours during a
solar storm some time in late 1955 (neither receivers
nor transmitters shut down, were on-line and waiting
but it gave the TTY Relay section a nice break time).

By the way, there's a nice mnemonic in "220" which is
also the APPROXIMATE number of teleprinters in the
TTY Relay section floor handling all the TTY in/out of
RUEP (the node identifier for Tokyo at the time).

My active duty time in the 8235th Army Unit (the "other"
identifier for my Signal Battalion) was three years.
So, given that I was actively responsible for my part
in handling all that traffic (none of us did it all on
our own) then, IF and only IF the 220 thousand per
month was an average for all three years, a total of
message traffic through ADA/RUEP was APPROXIMATELY
7.92 MILLION! An average PER YEAR would be 2.64
million. Now, if I were only directly, intimately,
hands-on like involved for 8 hours per day AVERAGE
that works out to a "mere" 880 thousand per year...
except I was there for three years so that AVERAGE
APPROXIMATE ESTIMATE (give or take) jumps back to
2.64 MILLION. [I do hope I haven't taxed your 16
neurons excessively on this so far...]

As to this "1.2 million" figure, that would be WRONG
IF and only IF TAKEN LITERALLY...IT HAS TO BE MORE!
My AVERAGE APPROXIMATE ESTIMATE was being very kind
to your one-op, one-transceiver amateur minds in
taking that 2.6 million down to roughly half. There
were some duties that involved simple maintenance,
testing, administrative duties, a couple of quick
equipment courses, etc., etc., that did NOT involve
DIRECT, HANDS-ON RESPONSIBILITY for keeping the
motto of GETTING THE MESSAGE THROUGH "live." For
example, in a month of duty exchange spent in Control
(to relieve another E-5 who was sick) my ON-LINE
RESPONSIBILITY was for a GREATER NUMBER than the
ones I ESTIMATED.

An EXACT tally is impossible. None of that was a
requirement. The only requirement was ABSOLUTE:
GET THE MESSAGES THROUGH. WE did. All of us in
our unit.

You only changed your story to "team" after a week of being hit
over the head with your silliness.

I used the term "team" for understanding by those
who have NOT been in that kind of communications.
WE used the term "trick chief" to denote a team
leader for operations and maintenance on a shift.
ADA transmitters had four teams working in a curious
12-day cycle of three days on each shift followed
by three days off. "Trick chiefs" were usually
E-5s with an E-4 as Assistant "trick chief."

the rank (E-5) to BE an Operating Team Leader. It is
obvious to any rational mind that NO ONE PERSON could
possibly transmit 220 thousand messages a month over
a single radio station. That takes teamwork and ALL
on the team MUST do their part.

If could have been in ANY time era, Lennie...Your INITIAL "story"
was that YOU were responsible for this feat. "Teamwork" didn't enter
the picture until days later.

Tsk, tsk, tsk. TEAMWORK was NECESSARY a half century
ago, always has been, still is (at least in USA and
USAF and USN military communications). The U.S.
Military is entirely PROFESSIONAL...not a bunch of
amateurs having fun in a hobby activity.


3. Saying you can read the future is itself a LIE.

I never said I could, Lennie.

Then why do you WRITE "what would be?" You don't
KNOW that your imaginings will take place.


I just acknowledged the error when it was shown and moved on.

That is (probably) the BIGGEST LIE of Robeson. Robeson
tries and tries and tries and tries to turn around ANY
accusation by misdirection, personal insult of others, and
general accusation of misdeeds by his accusers.

Ahhhhhhhhhh....I see....Saying that I realized I made a mistake
and
accepting that fact is "misdirection"...

Misdirection, personal insult of others, and a general
accusation of misdeeds by accusers. Google archives
are packed with your examples of NOT "acknowledging an
error and moving on!" :-)

I NEVER claimed that MARS was under anyone's direction other than
DoD.

I DID say that the same SPIRIT of AMATEUR RADIO was what made
MARS
what it is.

Bull**** squared. What Robeson wrote was -

"Sorry, Hans, MARS IS amateur radio."

The only "spirit" there is unwilling to come out in
the light of day. :-) MARS was "made what it is"
by the United States Army prior to World War 2...a
grandiose public relations thing "to get radio
amateurs [of the early 30s] involved with Army
radio communications." [from Army history as I
originally pointed out] After World War 2, the
USAF joined with USA and adopted the acronym of
MILITARY Affiliate Radio System. Note that
"amateur" does NOT appear in that name.

Civilian radio amateurs were NOT very active in
the pre-WW2 MARS (few volunteers who did not
contribute as much as the Army founders hoped).
Civilian radio amateurs were active in the post-
WW2 MARS, helping the morale effort of a generally
peacetime military scattered across the globe
through messages and "phone patches" stateside.
That dwindled after the "end" of the Vietnam War.
Today's military enjoys a much more DIRECT route
of communications through the DSN and Internet.

It's unfortunate (for the U.S. military) that
certain amateur radio publications have made
much more than reality of the "contributions"
to the "military" for so long...they have
brainwashed too many amateurs into thinking
they are the heart and soul of MARS. Amateurs
are NOT the heart and soul. Some volunteers
(not all) USE their volunteerism as a perverted
badge of herosim/patriotism as if they "serve"
the nation. The DoD still runs/directs/operates
MARS...and NOT ON the amateur radio bands.


Leonard H. Anderson IS
And putz....

Poor baby. Robeson just can't get through a
few minutes without insulting an "opponent."

Robeson CANNOT acknowledge that some have much
more experience IN radio communications than
he ever had. Rather than find out anything of
the various communications systems or organizations
he winds up doing PERSONAL INSULTS in lieu of
discussion on a SUBJECT. That's Robeson's
sickness demonstrated in here against all of his
opponents.

Robeson is the role model of today's amateur
extra?

K4YZ wrote:
K=D8HB wrote:
"K4YZ" wrote

You had to go back three years to find
something you could hang on to, but nice job!

Nope, less than 2-1/2 years.

Actually you're guilty of only a modest exaggeration, but if Brian
or
Len had
exaggerated something by a similar ratio you'd have labled them
"liars".

I wonder why that is?

If Brian or Lennie had such an error pointed out, there'd be a
six
month long rant on how licensing in Somalia

You lying sack of excrement. You, David Heil, Brian Kelly and The
Other Steve put out an APB and searched the web worldwide for one of my
cards.

Since no one came forward with one, You declared that my operation
never happened and that I was a liar.

You continue to say that to this day.

Now I want you to produce authentic evidence of your MARS activity on
Okinawa, and of your claimed seven hostile actions.

I just acknowledged the error when it was shown and moved on.

Again you're a lying sack of excrement. You complained that Hans had
to dig 3 years deep to find your single "mistake."

You acknowledged your itsy bitsy mistake and TRIED to move on as
quickly as you could, brushing aside all the mayhem that you caused
along the way.

You make no apology for all of the accusations that your itsy bitsy
little mistake enabled you to make, and still make to this day.

From: "bb" on Mon,May 2 2005 3:20 pm

K4YZ wrote:
K=D8=88B wrote:
"K4YZ" wrote

If Brian or Lennie had such an error pointed out, there'd be a
six
month long rant on how licensing in Somalia

You lying sack of excrement. You, David Heil, Brian Kelly and The
Other Steve put out an APB and searched the web worldwide for one of
my
cards.

True enough.

Since no one came forward with one, You declared that my operation
never happened and that I was a liar.

You continue to say that to this day.

Stebie KNOWS things, Brian. He has the "facts"
locked up in his head (besides in his wallet).

Remember the Double Standard in he

1. Everyone "owes" Stebie.

2. Stebie don't owe NUTHIN' to NOBODY!

Simple as that, ****ty though that be.

Now I want you to produce authentic evidence of your MARS activity on
Okinawa, and of your claimed seven hostile actions.

Tsk. He will NOT.

Stebie wants everyone to "verify" his "Okinawa
MARS" thing with the "CG of 1st MAF, 1981."
Tsk. It is unlikely that the First Marine Air
Wing will still BE on Okinawa 24 years later,
let alone have the "same" Commanding General!"

Humphhh...on "seven hostile actions," I can't
see AIRCRAFT GROUND CREW AND SUPPORT being
anything other than REAR-AREA operations!
Wow! Some "hostile actions" with implied
combat and hand-to-hand fighting over ground
at the airfield! Stebie need a whole new
box to hold all his "medals" for "combat."

All we can expect is weeks of waffling and
misdirection by him to AVOID revelation of
truth.

This is all a bad re-make of "X Files"
fantasy on TV! ["The Truth ISN'T Out There"]

I just acknowledged the error when it was shown and moved on.

Again you're a lying sack of excrement. You complained that Hans had
to dig 3 years deep to find your single "mistake."

Standard Local Operating Procedure in Stebieland.

The acronym works out to be SLOP. :-)

You acknowledged your itsy bitsy mistake and TRIED to move on as
quickly as you could, brushing aside all the mayhem that you caused
along the way.

Stebie NEBBER do wrong! Everybody else do wrong!

You make no apology for all of the accusations that your itsy bitsy
little mistake enabled you to make, and still make to this day.

Again, a given. Trouble is, Stebie just won't
admit he "exaggerated" a "little" on his claims.
In his view of things (apparent, judging from
thousands of postings) is that he ALWAYS TELLS
THE TRUTH...and anyone disagreeing with Stebie's
statements is a "LIAR."

Circular logic. Wonderful stuff and universally
used by psycho sociopaths. No one can effectively
"discuss" anything with one of those...the world
evolves around the sociopath and the world is (to
them) "always wrong."

"Temper Fry" I say to them. :-)