wrote:
From: on Sep 5, 4:05 pm

Dave Heil wrote:
wrote:
Dave Heil wrote:
wrote:

Get a clue, he's giving it back to you. He's been told that he is not
an amateur radio operator and should be here. This is a place only of
amateurs and amateur things.

I don't think Len has ever been told that he should be here. :-)

Typo.

A *big* typo.

"not"

...and a knot. Gordian knot. A Heilian knot not.

Who's there?

wrote:
Mike Coslo wrote:

wrote:

Mike Coslo wrote:


wrote:


Mike Coslo wrote:


wrote:


Michael Coslo wrote:


John Smith wrote:


K0HB:

Yes, I have read a couple of books on the subject--most
of the authors
strike me as being rather weak in math and especially
in the area of
probability and statistics--quite possibly
lotus-blossom-eaters.

For some it is easier to attack the thinker than
to disprove the idea....



It certainly is a lot easier to say "God makes it so, so it is"

The hard part is defining what is meant by "God"...

Not for those who want the easy answer. There are plenty enough people
who are just slap happy to tell us that!

Mike, are you an atheist? Or are you just playing at one because
President Bush is a Christian?

You tell me, Brian! I think Jesus was one cool dude, and has a lot to
tell us about how to live


One cool dude?

Why yes, one cool dude. Seems like an irreverent thing to say, eh? I
wonder what Jesus' opinion of me calling him a cool dude would be?


I wonder?


That being said, I think that many people who are proclaiming
themselves as "Christians" these days are not. The so-called
conservative Christians who loudly proclaim their ascendancy these days
don't really seem to have much to do with Jesus at all. The closest
thing that they are is a modern day version of the Pharisees. Their
trends are much more old testament - therefore not sharing in the new
covenant proclaimed by Jesus. They push public prayer, also proscribed
against by Jesus, They push religious domination of government - same deal.

While demanding that the first books of *their* bible (KJV) be taken as
absolutely literal, despite two different versions of creation, they
totally ignore the Sermon on the Mount, in which Jesus delivers direct
orders in as plain language as you will find in the bible. What's up
with that?

What is up with that is the modern fundamentalist Christians are
falling for one of the oldest tricks in the book - the false prophets.

That being said, there is no doubt in my mind that the world was *not*
created in seven days starting on Sunday, the 23rd of October in 4004 BC
as determined by Ussher - and put in print in one of my bibles at home.

There is no doubt in my mind that the present day universe *was*
created billions of years ago, probably in an event we call "the Big
Bang. I highly doubt that it was created by a supreme being. For what
happened before then, it becomes quite complex, and I enjoy speculation
on that.

- Mike KB3EIA -


There! I knew you had a lot more to say than mere nide remarks about
God. I hope you feel better.

If you look deeply enough, the snide remarks are not really about God.
They are about the people who would form God in their own image.

Problem is, that is an awful lot of people. Most, in fact.

- Mike KB3EIA -


Their faith says that they are made in God's image. And as you make
fun of them, you make redicule their faith.

I ridicule many things.


So where do we stop, Brian? Is it when they call for the government to
assassinate the leader of a country that they don't like? Is it when
they call for holy war? Is it when they launch inquisitions? Kill people
in the name of an Exorcism? Is it when a Catholic priest is expelled
from the UAR after serving a jail sentence for the crime of evangelizing
without a permit? Is it when the preacher stands in the pulpit and
declares that if you vote for a certain political party, you have to
leave the church? And in my own case, where the local fundies put such a
stranglehold on the school system that not only is evolution not taught
at all, but that no teaching about any dinosaurs or any animal that
didn't live in modern time was taught or discussed. My "sex ed" class
consisted of one session of naming of various STDs, and that was it.
That is it. less than an hour. I've seen the other side, and it isn't
pretty.

There is one problem with religious tolerance, and that is that many
religions have no concept of tolerance themselves.


Aren't you supposed to be an educated man?

Supposed to be. Didn't find out about a lot of things that I should
have known until after I graduated High School.

- Mike KB3EIA -

wrote:
Michael Coslo wrote:

wrote:

Mike Coslo wrote:

wrote:


OTOH, the mistakes of one generation (like pollution) *can*
affect following generations. (Why the heck did anyone
ever decide to build a major city on ground that is *below*
sea level and right next to three major bodies of water? And
in a hurricane zone?!)


It must be remembered that New Orleans has been sinking
at the rate of
3 feet per century. This has been accelerated due to the
deterioration of the Mississippi Delta.


Agreed!


When the city was founded, it was a low lying
coastal city, just like
most coastal cities. At that time, there was plenty of Delta,
and it
looked like a fine place to build a port city.


Sure - but that was centuries ago.


Over the years, as the geology changed, it was not at
such as fast rate
that relocation seemed necessary. Then as we learned
more, we found out
that essentially the city was doomed.


But how long has the sinking been known? How long ago did NO
go below sea level?

I think it was in the mid 1800's that there
started to be a concern.
Quite a while back.


Yet the expansion was to *lower* ground.

Hey, Jim - I sure can't explain what I think is stupidity on some
peoples part! Every house that I have ever bought has been on top of a
hill, cuz I believe that is a generally safer place. I would not ever
move to a lowland place like NO unless I absolutely had to.




It's been known for years - decades - that if a big enough
storm came ashore in the right place, NO would be in big
trouble. A little more than a week ago it looked like
Katrina would hit NO dead-on with full Category 5 force.
Had that happened - and it was a real possibility - things
would probably be even worse there than today.

hard to imagine, but I'll grant you that.


I posted a link to the warnings of 8 days ago. There would
have been fewer left to save...


Yet even with all that warning, the levee system was only good
for a Category 3 storm. People kept building there. even as
the ground kept sinking. Why?

People have a great capacity for self deception. People
build in
California along the fault lines, People live in "Tornado
Alley". People
build on the sides of active volcanoes, and don't move even
when they
are about to erupt. Building in a place that WILL eventually be
underwater is just about par for the course.


There are building and fire codes to protect people from their
own and other's ignorance. That concept needs to expand.

Like "reguulashuns" are going to stand a chance. More Leeberul hogwash!


Most of all, why wasn't everyone evacuated *before* the storm?
I know some refused to go, but many more simply did not have
the means to go. Why wasn't there a better plan in place
beforehand?
Hurricanes in the Gulf of Mexico aren't a new or
unusual thing.

There should have been buses brought in to evacuate people.
There was
ample notice of the magnitude of the storm.


Or is that sort of thing too "liberal" for this era?


Yes, the idea of the Federal gvt helping people is too
liberal.


I kinda expected...


I hear
a lot of grousing already about this not being the Federal
Government's responsibility.


?? From whom?

It seems to me that once the Administration got a clue, they
began devoting serious resources. Why it took so long for
them to get a clue is another issue. But I don't see anyone
saying it's not the Fed's job.

Go to some of the more conservative enclaves, and you'll hear it. I'd
rather not name names here if I didn't have to.

What I see as an issue that will be ignored is why there are
so many resources after the fact, but not before.

Because it is our way now to react, not act.

Meanwhile, Americans keep building big expensive homes and
buildings in lowlying coastal areas. And in places where the
ground shakes every so often. Why?

See above. Of course, the real answer is stupidity.


Or ignorance.

To me, Ignorance is buying a house, and not knowing it is near a
sinkhole. I *don't* think ignorance is when you build a house in an area
that you have to cross a levee to get to it. Wonder what that levee is
all about? I knew about all those problems in NO for years. And I'm not
the sharpest pencil in the box..

btw, it was just about 105 years ago


September 8, 1900.

I've been to Galveston. Beautiful place. Fine sand that feels good on
the feet. Big seawall now too!


that the big hurricane
hit
Galveston, Texas - with no advance warning. Look that one
up....

Well, it's not exactly that they didn't have any warning....


In 1900 they had none. 2005 was different...


"Wasn't That A Mighty Storm" (with kudos to Tom Rush)

T'would appear so!


73 de Jim, N2EY

"Frank Gilliland" wrote in message
...
On Tue, 6 Sep 2005 18:49:36 -0400, "Dee Flint"
wrote in
:


wrote in message
groups.com...
Michael Coslo wrote:
wrote:
Mike Coslo wrote:
wrote:


[snip]


Most of all, why wasn't everyone evacuated *before* the storm?
I know some refused to go, but many more simply did not have
the means to go. Why wasn't there a better plan in place
beforehand?
Hurricanes in the Gulf of Mexico aren't a new or
unusual thing.

There should have been buses brought in to evacuate people.
There was
ample notice of the magnitude of the storm.


It is my understanding that both the city of New Orleans and the state of
Louisiana actually have a plan to totally evacuate New Orleans but they
choose NOT to activate it.


http://gov.louisiana.gov/Press_Relea...ail.asp?id=973
http://gov.louisiana.gov/Press_Relea...ail.asp?id=983


So explain all the buses left sitting in the city. If activivated, it
certainly wasn't carried out the way it was supposed.

Dee D. Flint, N8UZE

Dee Flint wrote:
"Frank Gilliland" wrote in message
...

On 5 Sep 2005 18:27:06 -0700, wrote in
ps.com:

snip

It's been known for years - decades - that if a big enough
storm came ashore in the right place, NO would be in big
trouble. A little more than a week ago it looked like
Katrina would hit NO dead-on with full Category 5 force.
Had that happened - and it was a real possibility - things
would probably be even worse there than today.


The first hurricane to flood the city happened in 1927. Hurricane
Betsy hit the city in 1965, flooded half the city and left 60,000
homeless. It's not like they didn't know this could happen.



Yet even with all that warning, the levee system was only good
for a Category 3 storm. People kept building there. even as the ground
kept sinking. Why?


Because of better weather prediction technology, and assurances from
the state and federal governments that they would provide assistance
in such a disaster. And because a thriving economy had already been
established -- i.e, "thar's gold in them thar swamps".



Most of all, why wasn't everyone evacuated *before* the storm?
I know some refused to go, but many more simply did not have
the means to go. Why wasn't there a better plan in place beforehand?


That's a question that will need to be answered by the state and
federal governments in the coming months.



Hurricanes in the Gulf of Mexico aren't a new or
unusual thing.

Or is that sort of thing too "liberal" for this era?

Meanwhile, Americans keep building big expensive homes and
buildings in lowlying coastal areas. And in places where the
ground shakes every so often.


And around active volcanoes, in tornado hot-zones, at the bottom of
steep mountain slopes, on muddy hillsides, etc.



Tornado "hot zones" just happen to coincide with some of the best farmland
in this country.


Why?


Because people think "it can't happen to me".


Besides there is no place on earth that isn't subject to some type of
natural disaster or another.

True. Even here in the woods of PA, there are occasional flirtations
with disaster. In 1985 a tornado touched down in Penfield near Parker
Dam State Park, and continued on the ground for 99 minutes in a 60 mile
long path to just north of Lock Haven PA. Blew down 26K of forest in a
path that varied from 300 yards to 1.5 miles wide. A real monster that
happened on some of the more mountainous terrain in PA. Fortunately, it
was in a virtually uninhabited area.

So it can happen anywhere. The odds are a little better here than in
the alley tho'.

- Mike KB3EIA -

wrote:
From: "Dee Flint" on Tues 6 Sep 2005 18:31



"Frank Gilliland" wrote in message

On 5 Sep 2005 18:27:06 -0700, wrote in



Tornado "hot zones" just happen to coincide with some of the best farmland
in this country.


Tsk, tsk, tsk. FACTUAL ERROR!

The San Joaquin Valley of California is NOT in "tornado alley"
of the midwest. :-)

The San Joaquin Valley is some of the best farmland too! 8^)

Did Dee say *all* of the best farmland?

- mike KB3EIA -

"Cmdr Buzz Corey" wrote in message
...
wrote:


Tornado "hot zones" just happen to coincide with some of the best
farmland
in this country.


Tsk, tsk, tsk. FACTUAL ERROR!

The San Joaquin Valley of California is NOT in "tornado alley"
of the midwest. :-)





She said "some", not "all" of the best farmland lennieboy, do try to keep
up.

He does that all the time. And he overlooks that the San Joaquin Valley was
not particularly good until it was irrigated and fertilized. However with
those changes it is quite fertile. Personally, I like the land of the tall
corn (Iowa). Just punch a seed in the ground and step back quick before it
hits you in the eye (grin)!

Dee D. Flint, N8UZE

"Mike Coslo" wrote in message
...
Dee Flint wrote:
"Frank Gilliland" wrote in message
...

On 5 Sep 2005 18:27:06 -0700, wrote in
ups.com:


[snip]

Besides there is no place on earth that isn't subject to some type of
natural disaster or another.

True. Even here in the woods of PA, there are occasional flirtations with
disaster. In 1985 a tornado touched down in Penfield near Parker Dam State
Park, and continued on the ground for 99 minutes in a 60 mile long path to
just north of Lock Haven PA. Blew down 26K of forest in a path that varied
from 300 yards to 1.5 miles wide. A real monster that happened on some of
the more mountainous terrain in PA. Fortunately, it was in a virtually
uninhabited area.

So it can happen anywhere. The odds are a little better here than in the
alley tho'.

- Mike KB3EIA -

Though it seems with tornados that the most severe occurances tend to be
outside tornado alley. Almost as if they have to be bigger to be able at
all. I.e. the greatest number are in tornado alley but the severest ones
are outside it.

Dee D. Flint, N8UZE

wrote:


Tornado "hot zones" just happen to coincide with some of the best farmland
in this country.


Tsk, tsk, tsk. FACTUAL ERROR!

The San Joaquin Valley of California is NOT in "tornado alley"
of the midwest. :-)





She said "some", not "all" of the best farmland lennieboy, do try to
keep up.

On Tue, 6 Sep 2005 22:26:11 -0400, "Dee Flint"
wrote in
:


"Frank Gilliland" wrote in message
.. .
On Tue, 6 Sep 2005 18:49:36 -0400, "Dee Flint"
wrote in
:


wrote in message
egroups.com...
Michael Coslo wrote:
wrote:
Mike Coslo wrote:
wrote:


[snip]


Most of all, why wasn't everyone evacuated *before* the storm?
I know some refused to go, but many more simply did not have
the means to go. Why wasn't there a better plan in place
beforehand?
Hurricanes in the Gulf of Mexico aren't a new or
unusual thing.

There should have been buses brought in to evacuate people.
There was
ample notice of the magnitude of the storm.


It is my understanding that both the city of New Orleans and the state of
Louisiana actually have a plan to totally evacuate New Orleans but they
choose NOT to activate it.


http://gov.louisiana.gov/Press_Relea...ail.asp?id=973
http://gov.louisiana.gov/Press_Relea...ail.asp?id=983


So explain all the buses left sitting in the city. If activivated, it
certainly wasn't carried out the way it was supposed.


No, it certainly wasn't. A lot of people are going to have to do a lot
of explaining in the coming months.








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