wrote:
Michael Coslo wrote:

John Smith wrote:

K0HB:


Yes, I have read a couple of books on the subject--most
of the authors
strike me as being rather weak in math and especially
in the area of
probability and statistics--quite possibly
lotus-blossom-eaters.


For some it is easier to attack the thinker than
to disprove the idea....


It certainly is a lot easier to say "God makes it so, so it is"


The hard part is defining what is meant by "God"...

Not for those who want the easy answer. There are plenty enough people
who are just slap happy to tell us that!

First, just for starters, to get all the necessary elements
formed into
the complex amino acids to create the RNA is preposterous--
let alone the
actual creation of the RNA (and this would only be a virus--
unable to
replicate on its own.)

Why no, it really isn't preposterous.

What are the titles of your books?


Next, to get a complex DNA structure would be
another extraordinary event, for the proper structure
(organism) to be
present and form around the DNA AND be able to use the DNA
would be
another extraordinary event, for this organism to be
able to replicate
would be one more extraordinary event, for just one of these single celled
organisms to go "multi-cellular" would be one more
extraordinary event,
then for each cell to develop specialized functions--another extraordinary
event, for them to form complete organs handling a specific
function--another extraordinary event.... AND THIS IS
SUPPOSED TO GO
RIGHT ON UP TO WHERE THE ORGANISM IS CAPABLE OF SELF-
REALIZATION, COMPLEX
THOUGHT AND CONSIDERS ITSELF TO HAVE A SPIRIT!


At times like this, it's important to recall the
Unnamed Law:

"If it happens, it must be possible"


You are off the scientific track to begin with, otherwise
you wouldn't
use the string of "Preposterous, Extraordinary, impossible,
endlessly
number, impossible links, Impossible- end of story" stuff.


What's really missing in those statements is imagination.

Look at your PC or Mac. Then look at pictures of ENIAC (or actually go
see it, as I have done...)

Could anyone imagine that today's PCs are the direct descendants
of that machine? Yet they are, after just 60 years


Want to see a few things that are interesting?

Look up lipid structures, and see their likely early life implications.
No miracles here, just simple chemistry.

You speak of RNA and DNA. When speaking of origins of
life, it is
probably better to speak of metabolic pathways, as the DNA and RNA
probably evolved to accommodate them.

And are they complicated!

see http://tinyurl.com/dm8hu


This is a pdf file of the various metabolic pathways. While the major
ones are ATP and glycolysis, there are many.

Now whereas you may look at this chart, and say look how complicated!
this is proof that we are created by God!, I look at it and
say "What
kind of God would create such a sloppy convoluted MESS!"


"You see, to be quite frank, Kevin, the fabric of the universe
is far from perfect. It was a bit of botched job, you see. We
only had seven days to make it. And that's where this comes in.
This is the only map of all the holes. Well, why repair them?
Why not use them to get stinking rich?"

Hitchhikers guide?


I can only speak for myself, but if I were to create
life, I would
leave no doubt that it was created. There would be no
processes, no
interconnected pathways, nothing of the sort.


"God is not interested in technology... He knows nothing of
the potential of the micro-chip or the silicon revolution.
He's obsessed with making the grass grow and getting
rainbows right... Look at what he spends his time on.
43 species of parrot! Nipples for men! Slugs! HE created slugs! They
can't hear. They can't speak. They can't operate machinery. Are we not
in the hands of a lunatic?

If I were creating the world I wouldn't mess about with butterflies and
daffodils. I would have started with lasers, eight o'clock, Day One!"


My creatures would see because I made them see, would think
because
they just do, and there would be no obvious source of life -
cut one of
them open, and inside would be nothing.

A genuine miracle. Simple, and allowing of no argument.


Is not life-as-we-know-it a genuine miracle, regardless of
how it came about?

Sure! But not the same kind of miracle. Ours is a miracle of different
processes. We live because of various chemical reactions, taking energy
and transforming it into ourselves.

No, I'm talking about life that takes in no energy, and no apparent
support structure. It just IS. The life forms should be just sacks of
goo that have no obvious reason to be alive. They just are. There would
be no question that someone had to "make" that life.


... as you can quickly see, this chain of impossible,
seemingly endlessly
numbered and impossible links of extraordinary events to have all
occurred, all at just the right time, all in just the proper order is just
too mathematically impossible to have any believe but those
willing to
believe the most preposterous impossibility which could ever be devised...
in plain english--IT IS IMPOSSIBLE--END OF STORY!

You try to make it much more complicated sounding than it is.


What you're seeing in those statements is a lack of imagination.
Plus a failure to comprehend how long a billion years is...

There are moments where I believe that I can. At least for a few
minutes. Then I invariably get a headache! 8^)


Those books on the subject, start quickly to, toss around
these CHAINS of
extraordinary events without the slightest considerations to the
mathematical possibilities, which end up being NON-EXISTENT!

What were those books again?


"If it happens, it must be possible"

absolutely, and it is possible, it must happen.

I had the fortune to have a mathematics professor who I
worked with at the
university, who obtained a grant and was into computing these
possibilities, he WAS an atheist... and that is a true
story!


Must have read Oolon Coolophid's "Well That About Wraps It Up For
God"...

In fact, it was this professor who first told me to look
either for angels
or aliens--before he finally settled on the angels
(intelligence NOT from
a mud puddle as you could ever find upon an earth-like
planet)...

I just flat do not know what to think, it is all too
impossible...
perhaps the answers are out there...
X-Files-theme-plays-in-the-background

... or, perhaps there is a very simple explanation we just
have not
thought of--yet... any guess is as valid as another...

Well, the simplest answer is "All this comes from God".
Simple, to the
point, and the great thing is that once you accept this, you
need look
no further. You are her to worship him, and that is all the
knowledge needed.


I've got a two-liner that works for me:

Science is the how
God is the why

Why? Insecurity that causes God to create you so that you worship him
because he needs worship, and if you don't he will torture you for eternity?



If you want more, if the one liner answer is not enough, I would
suggest that you add time to your equations of impossibility.


Also the size of the earth.

For some reason that reminds me of the natural "reactor that they found
in Africa. Seems that there was a concentration of Uranium ore that was
reacting a couple billion of years ago. Groundwater was acting as the
moderator. (at least the theory that sounds best to me)

The odds of that happening are pretty darn slight.

So I guess God must have done it for some reason.

http://tinyurl.com/5wth8




As for your math professor, I wonder if he had the concept of
time on
the billion year scale? Almost no one does.


Worse, too many don't realize they don't know.

Well, when you want to be certain of things, you have to know what you
don't know! ;^)


How is it that the human has eyes? An exquisite organ of sense to be
sure. But before we throw up our hands and say that it was too
complicated a structure to have simply come about by chance, we might
want to take a look at the facts.

Phototropism exists at the lowest levels of life. There are bacteria in
the ocean that adjust the level at which they "swim" by the amount of
ambient light falling on them. It is a pretty simple thing. Various
creatures make use of this in varying degrees of complexity, from simple
organs that react to light coming from different directions, to simple
lensed eyes, to multi lensed wonders that detect movement, to reflective
layers behind the sensing structure that allow sight at the
individual
photon level. As well as our eyes, which although wonderful,
are not at
the top of the list for acuity.


And in the oceans are creatures who have lost the ability
to see, because in their environment it's pretty useless.

Some forms of life have senses we don't - like migratory birds that can
sense the earth's magnetism.

But at it's root level, it *is* a simple thing. That's
phototropism. A
chemical reaction that would exist if there were no life to put it in.

That is just one case. The other senses are also similarly
simply
based. All based on detection of energy sources, and using
those sources
to extract information from the environment.

Just like looking at a modern automobile. While they look very
complicated, at heart, they are just a compilation of simple
machines.


They're also the end product of a long series of small developments.

This is in no way to say that life is not a wonderful and
amazing
thing. It is. It is a messy, complicated, unruly, terribly
imperfect yet
surprisingly resilient gastraphagus we have here.

And yet, some people look at it, and some throw their arms in
the air
and say that "It is so complex! It could only have been created by
God!". While I look at it and say "It is so complex! I doubt
any God
would create such a mess when under his total control, a simple life form could be created".


I doubt that anyone on this planet really knows. We're just at
the beginning in so many ways. Consider how recently things like
infectious disease, vaccines and basic metabolism were understood.
And yet some people think they are qualified to say what is "too
complex"? That's almost funny.

It is an admission of failure. Or hubris. Or a strange combination of
both. If something is too complex for someone to understand, that does
no mean it is too complex for me to understand. And vice versa.


It is worth study with an open mind. When you work on the
billion year
time scale, all sorts of possibilities exist.


Yup.

One more thing is unknown: Is the biology we know the only one
possible, or are there many possibilities, and Earth just has one of
them?

I think that the answer lies in the many metabolic pathways. And I
believe the answer is that there are a lot of possibilities.

Earth has two distinct forms of life already. There is plenty of room
for more.

- Mike KB3EIA -

Mike Coslo wrote:
wrote:
Michael Coslo wrote:
John Smith wrote:
K0HB:

Yes, I have read a couple of books on the subject--most
of the authors
strike me as being rather weak in math and especially
in the area of
probability and statistics--quite possibly
lotus-blossom-eaters.

For some it is easier to attack the thinker than
to disprove the idea....

It certainly is a lot easier to say "God makes it so, so it is"

The hard part is defining what is meant by "God"...

Not for those who want the easy answer. There are plenty enough people
who are just slap happy to tell us that!

Mike, are you an atheist? Or are you just playing at one because
President Bush is a Christian?

wrote


Mike, are you an atheist? Or are you just playing at one because
President Bush is a Christian?


There are thousands of gods available to believe in, and for each individual god
there are often several different versions of that religion. Take, for example,
President Bush's god --- dozens and dozens of different cults all claiming to be
the "proper" Christians.

The only difference between atheists and GWB is that the atheists believe in one
less god than George does. If I have it right, Georges god, in His cosmic
loneliness, felt a need to be worshipped, so He invented Us to worship him.
Those of Us who aren't so inclined, He will banish to spend eternity on 75-meter
phone.

Beep beep!
de Hans, K0HB
Most Reverend Keeper of the Codes of Q

On Sun, 04 Sep 2005 15:50:11 GMT, "KØHB"
wrote:


There are thousands of gods available to believe in, and for each individual god
there are often several different versions of that religion. Take, for example,
President Bush's god --- dozens and dozens of different cults all claiming to be
the "proper" Christians.

The only difference between atheists and GWB is that the atheists believe in one
less god than George does. If I have it right, Georges god, in His cosmic
loneliness, felt a need to be worshipped, so He invented Us to worship him.
Those of Us who aren't so inclined, He will banish to spend eternity on 75-meter
phone.

Beep beep!
de Hans, K0HB
Most Reverend Keeper of the Codes of Q

Since this subject has been brought up, I'll admit it - I am an
atheist. Here are MY observations, however off-topic they may be...

With the catastrophe of Hurricane Katrina, we saw thousands of
survivors thanking god for their lives, even though they’ve lost
everything. I haven’t seen one survivor blaming god for the death of
innocents in this disaster, not to mention the thousands that have
been left homeless and displaced from their families, not yet knowing
whether they’re dead or alive. Yet, they still thank god for their
lives. If a madman forced you out of your house by gun point, and then
burned your house to the ground while you watched, would you thank him
for sparing your life? What good is life if your lifestyle, quality of
life, and means of sustanation are suddenly gone?

It makes no sense to me why people would appeal to god and praise god,
yet not scratch their heads in confusion when said god anally rapes
New Orleans, but say that it is "god’s will". Believers will say that
I must not question "god’s will", but I SHALL question the will of
such a god in the hopes that some right-wing bible thumpers will
re-think their god’s position in the wake of such disasters.

But I doubt that is going to happen. Today, there are people going to
prayer-fests in just about every church in the country. They’ll do
their praying, get back into their big, gas-sucking SUVs, and drive
back to their fancy homes with the smug satisfaction that they
actually did something to help the survivors of this disaster. Is all
of this praying supposed to cause some big hand to come down out of
the sky and supply those affected by this tragedy with food, water,
clothes, medicine and shelter until the government and volunteer
donations can be supplied. Somehow, I doubt it.

I am ashamed of my government, and I don’t care who is offended by my
comments. I’ll question and bash anyone and any god I damn well please
and make no apologies for it. I have had with the religious platitudes
from politicians and community leaders on all levels of government.
They invoke a non-existent supernatural deity so they can duck their
responsibilities. They dragged their asses when it came to getting the
job done and lives were lost as a result. It’s time to fire all of
them, starting with their murdering, cruel, vindictive god and working
the way down.

Uncle Ted wrote:
On Sun, 04 Sep 2005 15:50:11 GMT, "K=D8HB"
wrote:


There are thousands of gods available to believe in, and for each indivi=
dual god
there are often several different versions of that religion. Take, for =
example,
President Bush's god --- dozens and dozens of different cults all claimi=
ng to be
the "proper" Christians.

The only difference between atheists and GWB is that the atheists believ=
e in one
less god than George does. If I have it right, Georges god, in His cosm=
ic
loneliness, felt a need to be worshipped, so He invented Us to worship h=
im.
Those of Us who aren't so inclined, He will banish to spend eternity on =
75-meter
phone.

Beep beep!
de Hans, K0HB
Most Reverend Keeper of the Codes of Q

Since this subject has been brought up, I'll admit it - I am an
atheist. Here are MY observations, however off-topic they may be...

With the catastrophe of Hurricane Katrina, we saw thousands of
survivors thanking god for their lives, even though they've lost
everything. I haven't seen one survivor blaming god for the death of
innocents in this disaster, not to mention the thousands that have
been left homeless and displaced from their families, not yet knowing
whether they're dead or alive. Yet, they still thank god for their
lives. If a madman forced you out of your house by gun point, and then
burned your house to the ground while you watched, would you thank him
for sparing your life? What good is life if your lifestyle, quality of
life, and means of sustanation are suddenly gone?

It makes no sense to me why people would appeal to god and praise god,
yet not scratch their heads in confusion when said god anally rapes
New Orleans, but say that it is "god's will". Believers will say that
I must not question "god's will", but I SHALL question the will of
such a god in the hopes that some right-wing bible thumpers will
re-think their god's position in the wake of such disasters.

But I doubt that is going to happen. Today, there are people going to
prayer-fests in just about every church in the country. They'll do
their praying, get back into their big, gas-sucking SUVs, and drive
back to their fancy homes with the smug satisfaction that they
actually did something to help the survivors of this disaster. Is all
of this praying supposed to cause some big hand to come down out of
the sky and supply those affected by this tragedy with food, water,
clothes, medicine and shelter until the government and volunteer
donations can be supplied. Somehow, I doubt it.

I am ashamed of my government, and I don't care who is offended by my
comments. I'll question and bash anyone and any god I damn well please
and make no apologies for it. I have had with the religious platitudes
from politicians and community leaders on all levels of government.
They invoke a non-existent supernatural deity so they can duck their
responsibilities. They dragged their asses when it came to getting the
job done and lives were lost as a result. It's time to fire all of
them, starting with their murdering, cruel, vindictive god and working
the way down.

Welp, Ted, at least you didn't try to bash Bush over the hurricane.

K=D8HB wrote:
wrote


Mike, are you an atheist? Or are you just playing at one because
President Bush is a Christian?


There are thousands of gods available to believe in, and for each individ=
ual god
there are often several different versions of that religion. Take, for e=
xample,
President Bush's god --- dozens and dozens of different cults all claimin=
g to be
the "proper" Christians.

The only difference between atheists and GWB is that the atheists believe=
in one
less god than George does. If I have it right, Georges god, in His cosmic
loneliness, felt a need to be worshipped, so He invented Us to worship hi=
m=2E
Those of Us who aren't so inclined, He will banish to spend eternity on 7=
5-meter
phone.

Beep beep!
de Hans, K0HB
Most Reverend Keeper of the Codes of Q

Hans, you're already on record. I was just curious about Mike.

Before the election, almost every liberal was saying that they were
Christians. Now that all of the hooplah is over, they're back to being
atheists.

wrote:
Mike Coslo wrote:

wrote:

Michael Coslo wrote:

John Smith wrote:

K0HB:

Yes, I have read a couple of books on the subject--most
of the authors
strike me as being rather weak in math and especially
in the area of
probability and statistics--quite possibly
lotus-blossom-eaters.

For some it is easier to attack the thinker than
to disprove the idea....


It certainly is a lot easier to say "God makes it so, so it is"

The hard part is defining what is meant by "God"...

Not for those who want the easy answer. There are plenty enough people
who are just slap happy to tell us that!


Mike, are you an atheist? Or are you just playing at one because
President Bush is a Christian?

You tell me, Brian! I think Jesus was one cool dude, and has a lot to
tell us about how to live.

That being said, I think that many people who are proclaiming
themselves as "Christians" these days are not. The so-called
conservative Christians who loudly proclaim their ascendancy these days
don't really seem to have much to do with Jesus at all. The closest
thing that they are is a modern day version of the Pharisees. Their
trends are much more old testament - therefore not sharing in the new
covenant proclaimed by Jesus. They push public prayer, also proscribed
against by Jesus, They push religious domination of government - same deal.

While demanding that the first books of *their* bible (KJV) be taken as
absolutely literal, despite two different versions of creation, they
totally ignore the Sermon on the Mount, in which Jesus delivers direct
orders in as plain language as you will find in the bible. What's up
with that?

What is up with that is the modern fundamentalist Christians are
falling for one of the oldest tricks in the book - the false prophets.

That being said, there is no doubt in my mind that the world was *not*
created in seven days starting on Sunday, the 23rd of October in 4004 BC
as determined by Ussher - and put in print in one of my bibles at home.

There is no doubt in my mind that the present day universe *was*
created billions of years ago, probably in an event we call "the Big
Bang. I highly doubt that it was created by a supreme being. For what
happened before then, it becomes quite complex, and I enjoy speculation
on that.

- Mike KB3EIA -

Mike Coslo wrote:
I think Jesus was one cool dude, and has a lot to
tell us about how to live.

Yup - and how *not* to live.

That being said, I think that many people who are proclaiming
themselves as "Christians" these days are not. The so-called
conservative Christians who loudly proclaim their ascendancy
these days
don't really seem to have much to do with Jesus at all.

Nothing new about that. Constantine, Cyril, the Crusades, and
of course the Spanish Inquisition.

"If Jesus came back, and saw what's going on in His name,
He'd never stop throwing up." --Frederick, in Woody Allen's "Hannah and
Her Sisters"

The closest thing that they are is a modern day version
of the Pharisees. Their trends are much more old
testament - therefore not sharing in the new
covenant proclaimed by Jesus. They push public prayer,
also proscribed
against by Jesus, they push religious domination of
government - same deal.

They've had plenty of company in the past 2000 years...

While demanding that the first books of *their* bible

Except it's not really "theirs" - particularly the first
five books...

(KJV) be taken as
absolutely literal, despite two different versions of creation, they
totally ignore the Sermon on the Mount, in which Jesus delivers direct
orders in as plain language as you will find in the bible.
What's up with that?

It's a mystery, Mike. You just have to take it on faith.

I find it interesting that the dietary and other laws of the "old"
testament are ignored when inconvenient - just like
the inconvenient teachings of Jesus.

Fun fact: Which states do you think have the highest and lowest
divorce rates - "conservative" red states or "liberal" blue states?

"what God has joined together, let no man put asunder"...

What is up with that is the modern
fundamentalist Christians are
falling for one of the oldest tricks
in the book - the false prophets.

That being said, there is no doubt in my mind that
the world was *not*
created in seven days starting on Sunday, the 23rd of October
in 4004 BC
as determined by Ussher - and put in print in one of my bibles at home.

Actually, Genesis says it took six days - because the Creator
rested on the seventh day.

Rush job, too. Left a lot of holes....

There is no doubt in my mind that the present
day universe *was*
created billions of years ago, probably in an
event we call "the Big
Bang.

There should always be doubt, Mike. The Big Bang
cosmology is simply the best explanation we
have now that fits all the scientific data. New
data might require a new cosmology.

That's one big difference between real and fake
science. Real science is always open to new
data and new explanations.

I highly doubt that it was created by
a supreme being.

Why? Couldn't the Supreme Being have set it all
in motion, and the Bang was just the method?

For what
happened before then, it becomes quite complex, and I enjoy
speculation on that.

You can explain anything by using the 'supernatural'. Which means the
'supernatural' explains nothing.

73 de Jim, N2EY

On 4 Sep 2005 16:44:42 -0700, wrote in
.com:

Mike Coslo wrote:
snip
That being said, there is no doubt in my mind that
the world was *not*
created in seven days starting on Sunday, the 23rd of October
in 4004 BC
as determined by Ussher - and put in print in one of my bibles at home.

Actually, Genesis says it took six days - because the Creator
rested on the seventh day.

Rush job, too. Left a lot of holes....


LOL!!!


snip
I highly doubt that it was created by
a supreme being.

Why? Couldn't the Supreme Being have set it all
in motion, and the Bang was just the method?


I get a kick out of some of these discussions. Especially regarding
evolution. These "Christians" are constantly trying to poke holes in
the theory, yet are too short-sighted to consider that 'evolution'
(even with all it's holes) might be one of God's creations. If so,
then they are effectively attacking their own faith.

Go figure.










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http://www.newsfeeds.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! 120,000+ Newsgroups
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Frank Gilliland wrote:
On 4 Sep 2005 16:44:42 -0700, wrote in
.com:


Mike Coslo wrote:

snip

That being said, there is no doubt in my mind that
the world was *not*
created in seven days starting on Sunday, the 23rd of October
in 4004 BC
as determined by Ussher - and put in print in one of my bibles at home.

Actually, Genesis says it took six days - because the Creator
rested on the seventh day.

Rush job, too. Left a lot of holes....



LOL!!!


snip

I highly doubt that it was created by
a supreme being.

Why? Couldn't the Supreme Being have set it all
in motion, and the Bang was just the method?



I get a kick out of some of these discussions. Especially regarding
evolution. These "Christians" are constantly trying to poke holes in
the theory, yet are too short-sighted to consider that 'evolution'
(even with all it's holes) might be one of God's creations. If so,
then they are effectively attacking their own faith.

I've asked them that (one time I was trapped in a car on a 4 hour drive
with a couple fundies- arrrgh) We had a grand old time. I used to keep
me yap shut because it doesn't do much good, but after the second hour
of them trying to save my soul, I unleashed the dogs on them. Turns out
they did not know where the water came from or went to, and didn't know
why the kangaroos had to swim from Australia to the middle east in order
not to drown. Even my more serious questions were troublesome for them,
especially since they were engineers. They really hated my thoughts on
how if they were correct about the young universe and Earth were fact,
some of the "facts" that they tried to use to disprove Evolution, such
as dating anomalies, could not be true because the basic nuclear decay
rates (or is that nukular?) were wrong to begin with.

- Mike KB3EIA -