N9OGL wrote:
From the FCC Rule Book: Complete Guide to the FCC Regulations Governing
Amateur Radio; edited by Norm Bliss,WA1CCQ, Published by the ARRL

Chapter 4, Page 4-2 Direct and Indirect Payment


"You must never accept any money or other consideration for operating
your station [97.113(a)(2)]. this is consistent with one of the prime
directives of our serice:

Specifically:

(2) Communications for hire or for material compensation, direct or
indirect, paid or promised, except as otherwise provided in these rules;


Never? Who said "never"?


What is compensation? How about the public service event support where
the volunteers are expected to wear a hat or t-shirt? And the sponsors
give all the volunteers that piece of clothing. Must the Hams refuse?
What if the sponsors says "sorry, if you don't abide by our rules, we'll
have to do this some other way"?

Is accepting that glass of water compensation?

Better yet, during field day, I drank a lot of soda provided by some
club members. Is that compensation?

"Recognition and enhancement of the value of the amateur service
to the public as a voluntary, noncommercial communication service,
particularly with respect providing emergency communication" (emphasis
added) [97.1(a)]


Of course.

If you club is providing communications support to the town of Needham
for a parade, you cannot accept their offer of payment for your work.
You are volunteers, providing a community service on a non-commercial
basis, period

No money should ever change hands.


You should never accept anything for your Amateur Radio operating.
The FCC prohibits operation of an amateur station "for hire, or
material compensation, direct or indirect, paid or promised"
[97.113(a)(2)] This includes direct payment (money, goods, food, and so
on) and indirect payment (publicity, advertising, and so on)."

What if one of the people in that parade gives you a ride home? We get
thank you letters all the time, and mentioned in these groups
newsletters. Is this in violation?


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

It rather funny that K1MAN get's fined $21,000 for Pecuniary Interest
and the ARRL is allowed to do this. What go for one person should apply
to all. The ARRL should be fined by the FCC for doing this!

There is a significant difference between compensation (which the FCC
allows in some circumstances, and having expenses covered. For me to
move a station down to one of these states in trouble for a week or two
is going to put considerable expense on me. A kilobuck for a plane
ticket each way), a weeks worth of food, (probably around 150 if I'm
careful) and hotel expenses (say $700). Plus a weeks worth of vacation
means I'm giving up around 3-4 kilobucks depending on how you add it up.

Vacation isn't a compensable item IMO, but we simply aren't going to
get many people to help on-site during these disasters if there isn't
some form of compensation.

- Mike KB3EIA -

an_old_friend wrote:
I had always thought it was expressly forbidden to accept any
compensation for our activiites as Hams, the correctness of that rule
being a another matter


Under certain circumstances it is.

We're talking about being reimbursed for reasonable expenses here. The
personal cost of say a week on location in a disaster area is
significant. Air travel, hotel and food adds up pretty quickly. And as
Ham radio becomes more integrated into the disaster response system, we
will be compensated like the rest of the responders.

Perhaps that will be one of those certain circumstances?

- Mike KB3EIA -

Mike Coslo wrote:
N9OGL wrote:
From the FCC Rule Book: Complete Guide to the FCC Regulations Governing
Amateur Radio; edited by Norm Bliss,WA1CCQ, Published by the ARRL

Chapter 4, Page 4-2 Direct and Indirect Payment


"You must never accept any money or other consideration for operating
your station [97.113(a)(2)]. this is consistent with one of the prime
directives of our serice:

Specifically:

(2) Communications for hire or for material compensation, direct or
indirect, paid or promised, except as otherwise provided in these rules;


Never? Who said "never"?

the ARRL said so



What is compensation? How about the public service event support where
the volunteers are expected to wear a hat or t-shirt? And the sponsors
give all the volunteers that piece of clothing. Must the Hams refuse?

wearing thier unidform is more questionable but I would agree that it
certainly can be seen that way

What if the sponsors says "sorry, if you don't abide by our rules, we'll
have to do this some other way"?

Is accepting that glass of water compensation?

techinicaly yes


Better yet, during field day, I drank a lot of soda provided by some
club members. Is that compensation?

FD is a ham activity


"Recognition and enhancement of the value of the amateur service
to the public as a voluntary, noncommercial communication service,
particularly with respect providing emergency communication" (emphasis
added) [97.1(a)]


Of course.

If you club is providing communications support to the town of Needham
for a parade, you cannot accept their offer of payment for your work.
You are volunteers, providing a community service on a non-commercial
basis, period

No money should ever change hands.


You should never accept anything for your Amateur Radio operating.
The FCC prohibits operation of an amateur station "for hire, or
material compensation, direct or indirect, paid or promised"
[97.113(a)(2)] This includes direct payment (money, goods, food, and so
on) and indirect payment (publicity, advertising, and so on)."

What if one of the people in that parade gives you a ride home? We get

techinaly yes

thank you letters all the time, and mentioned in these groups
newsletters. Is this in violation?

not if we don't ask for them


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

It rather funny that K1MAN get's fined $21,000 for Pecuniary Interest
and the ARRL is allowed to do this. What go for one person should apply
to all. The ARRL should be fined by the FCC for doing this!

There is a significant difference between compensation (which the FCC
allows in some circumstances, and having expenses covered. For me to
move a station down to one of these states in trouble for a week or two
is going to put considerable expense on me. A kilobuck for a plane
ticket each way), a weeks worth of food, (probably around 150 if I'm
careful) and hotel expenses (say $700). Plus a weeks worth of vacation
means I'm giving up around 3-4 kilobucks depending on how you add it up.

and the rules as written don't seem to allow it the ARRL has been
pushing the view that it is forbidden. That these rules are IMO wrong
alters not the facts of what the rules are

Vacation isn't a compensable item IMO, but we simply aren't going to
get many people to help on-site during these disasters if there isn't
some form of compensation.

- Mike KB3EIA -

Mike Coslo wrote:
an_old_friend wrote:
I had always thought it was expressly forbidden to accept any
compensation for our activiites as Hams, the correctness of that rule
being a another matter


Under certain circumstances it is.

We're talking about being reimbursed for reasonable expenses here. The
personal cost of say a week on location in a disaster area is
significant. Air travel, hotel and food adds up pretty quickly. And as
Ham radio becomes more integrated into the disaster response system, we
will be compensated like the rest of the responders.

Perhaps that will be one of those certain circumstances?

It should be but this amounts to turning the rules upside down over
night

The rules should be rewritten so as to deal with such things but the
rules currently forbid it

wicking at the rules at some point, is likely the reason why some hams
(like K1MAN) have developed views and actions that so many Ham
disaprove of

I fully support changing the rules, writing new ones to deal with such
things. I would even support this if it came with words like" we are
aware this may be considered a violation of the rules, but the ARRL
thinks in this case we must act, and then we will seek to work with the
FCC to write rules that permit reasonable compsation for thier
expenses" or word to that effect

as it is is looks like graft and corupportion

- Mike KB3EIA -

"an_old_friend" wrote in message
oups.com...

Mike Coslo wrote:
an_old_friend wrote:
I had always thought it was expressly forbidden to accept any
compensation for our activiites as Hams, the correctness of that rule
being a another matter


Under certain circumstances it is.

We're talking about being reimbursed for reasonable expenses here. The
personal cost of say a week on location in a disaster area is
significant. Air travel, hotel and food adds up pretty quickly. And as
Ham radio becomes more integrated into the disaster response system, we
will be compensated like the rest of the responders.

Perhaps that will be one of those certain circumstances?

It should be but this amounts to turning the rules upside down over
night

The rules should be rewritten so as to deal with such things but the
rules currently forbid it

wicking at the rules at some point, is likely the reason why some hams
(like K1MAN) have developed views and actions that so many Ham
disaprove of

I fully support changing the rules, writing new ones to deal with such
things. I would even support this if it came with words like" we are
aware this may be considered a violation of the rules, but the ARRL
thinks in this case we must act, and then we will seek to work with the
FCC to write rules that permit reasonable compsation for thier
expenses" or word to that effect

as it is is looks like graft and corupportion

It only looks like that to people who look at the worst possible
interpretation rather than the best. Most of us DON'T look at it that way.

Dee D. Flint, N8UZE

K=D8HB wrote:
"N9OGL" wrote

"You must never accept any money or other consideration for operating
your station [97.113(a)(2)]. this is consistent with one of the prime
directives of our serice:

I understand your concern, but the grant does not provide payment for ope=
rating;
it provides reimbursement for expenses.

My radios are expenses.

Dee Flint wrote:
"an_old_friend" wrote in message
oups.com...

Mike Coslo wrote:
an_old_friend wrote:
I had always thought it was expressly forbidden to accept any
compensation for our activiites as Hams, the correctness of that rule
being a another matter


Under certain circumstances it is.

We're talking about being reimbursed for reasonable expenses here. The
personal cost of say a week on location in a disaster area is
significant. Air travel, hotel and food adds up pretty quickly. And as
Ham radio becomes more integrated into the disaster response system, we
will be compensated like the rest of the responders.

Perhaps that will be one of those certain circumstances?

It should be but this amounts to turning the rules upside down over
night

The rules should be rewritten so as to deal with such things but the
rules currently forbid it

wicking at the rules at some point, is likely the reason why some hams
(like K1MAN) have developed views and actions that so many Ham
disaprove of

I fully support changing the rules, writing new ones to deal with such
things. I would even support this if it came with words like" we are
aware this may be considered a violation of the rules, but the ARRL
thinks in this case we must act, and then we will seek to work with the
FCC to write rules that permit reasonable compsation for thier
expenses" or word to that effect

as it is is looks like graft and corupportion

It only looks like that to people who look at the worst possible
interpretation rather than the best. Most of us DON'T look at it that way.

Those notes are from the ARRL who have boasted they take a more liberal
view than the FCC

Dee D. Flint, N8UZE

wrote:
K=D8HB wrote:
"N9OGL" wrote

"You must never accept any money or other consideration for operating
your station [97.113(a)(2)]. this is consistent with one of the prime
directives of our serice:

I understand your concern, but the grant does not provide payment for o=
perating;
it provides reimbursement for expenses.

My radios are expenses.

as are My drill bits For punching hole in the walls

A Better set of rules would allow some reasonable comp, and I would
support it but that isn't the rules NOW

.... so, the general message here is, "Do as the FCC says--unless you are
arrl--then you can do as you see fit. However, no one else (not even
K1MAN) can do as the arrl does..."

I'll admit it is a bit confusing... unless you are the arrl--then you know
exactly what is going on--you are giving everyone a royal screwing and
either they are too stupid to care--or too stupid to have ethics!

John

On Sun, 04 Sep 2005 14:40:50 -0700, N9OGL wrote:

From the FCC Rule Book: Complete Guide to the FCC Regulations Governing
Amateur Radio; edited by Norm Bliss,WA1CCQ, Published by the ARRL

Chapter 4, Page 4-2 Direct and Indirect Payment


"You must never accept any money or other consideration for operating
your station [97.113(a)(2)]. this is consistent with one of the prime
directives of our serice:

"Recognition and enhancement of the value of the amateur service
to the public as a voluntary, noncommercial communication service,
particularly with respect providing emergency communication" (emphasis
added) [97.1(a)]

If you club is providing communications support to the town of Needham
for a parade, you cannot accept their offer of payment for your work.
You are volunteers, providing a community service on a non-commercial
basis, period
You should never accept anything for your Amateur Radio operating.
The FCC prohibits operation of an amateur station "for hire, or
material compensation, direct or indirect, paid or promised"
[97.113(a)(2)] This includes direct payment (money, goods, food, and so
on) and indirect payment (publicity, advertising, and so on)."

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

It rather funny that K1MAN get's fined $21,000 for Pecuniary Interest
and the ARRL is allowed to do this. What go for one person should apply
to all. The ARRL should be fined by the FCC for doing this!


Todd N9OGL

AOF:

Did I understand Dee's question correctly? Isn't what she asked, and I
paraphrase here, "Where are your rose colored glasses?"

John

On Sun, 04 Sep 2005 17:02:11 -0700, an_old_friend wrote:


Mike Coslo wrote:
an_old_friend wrote:
I had always thought it was expressly forbidden to accept any
compensation for our activiites as Hams, the correctness of that rule
being a another matter


Under certain circumstances it is.

We're talking about being reimbursed for reasonable expenses here. The
personal cost of say a week on location in a disaster area is
significant. Air travel, hotel and food adds up pretty quickly. And as
Ham radio becomes more integrated into the disaster response system, we
will be compensated like the rest of the responders.

Perhaps that will be one of those certain circumstances?

It should be but this amounts to turning the rules upside down over
night

The rules should be rewritten so as to deal with such things but the
rules currently forbid it

wicking at the rules at some point, is likely the reason why some hams
(like K1MAN) have developed views and actions that so many Ham
disaprove of

I fully support changing the rules, writing new ones to deal with such
things. I would even support this if it came with words like" we are
aware this may be considered a violation of the rules, but the ARRL
thinks in this case we must act, and then we will seek to work with the
FCC to write rules that permit reasonable compsation for thier
expenses" or word to that effect

as it is is looks like graft and corupportion

- Mike KB3EIA -