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#61
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Opus- wrote:
Sorry I am late in replying. Holiday weekend here in Canada. I hope it was a good one. On 5 Oct 2006 17:05:58 -0700, spake thusly: Opus- wrote: On 5 Oct 2006 04:26:28 -0700, spake thusly: Opus- wrote: The statement is quite simple...a voice on the airwaves can convey much more information than just the words spoken but CW can only convey the words. Morse Code can convey more than the words - if the operators are skilled in it. One of those old timers once told me that he recognized another operators "hand" back when I watched him operate. Yup. Little things about an op's sending can make it as recognizable as a familiar voice. btw, the term "fist" is used in the same context as "hand" was used by that op. Never heard the term "fist" used in this context but it's been a while since I have spent much time with a coder. Both terms are used. Some folks use the term "swing" as well, but that's not exactly a compliment. I am not sure how much more a person can get out of code. The words, of course. How they are sent can tell a lot, too. It takes a bit of experience to recognize all the subtleties of Morse Code. The main point is that skilled Morse Code operators can convey more than 'just the words'. It's not the same thing as a voice, though. I think that is your main point. More than words, but how much more? Quite a bit, but obviously not as much as a voice. The main point is that skilled operators get more than 'just the words'. It's a bit similar to the way that one's perception of the written word is affected by the font, punctuation, capitalization, etc. Not exactly the same, but similar. I also have to believe that code is slower than speech. Not usually a big issue but an issue none the less. Like many things, "it depends". The raw speed of the spoken word is obviously faster. But when you really listen to the way most people speak, the speed is limited by many things. There's a lot of redundancy in the way many people speak, pauses, repeats, "ums" and "ahs', and little phrases tossed in while the person thinks of what to say next. Meanwhile, the skilled Morse Code operator is using abbreviations and other shortcuts that effectively increase the speed way beyond the raw wpm. For example, the first response in a voice QSO might go like this: "VE6QRM, victor-echo-six-quebec-romeo-mike, this is N2EY, november-two-echo-yankee, thanks for the call. You're five and nine, five-nine here, good clear signals. I am in Wayne, Pennsylvania, that's Wayne, whiskey-alpha-yankee-november-echo, Pennsylvania, papa-alpha. Name here is Jim, john-ida-mike, Jim. How do you copy me?....." while using Morse Code, the same exchange could be: "VE6QRM DE N2EY TNX CL BT UR 599 599 GUD SIG IN WAYNE PA WAYNE PA BT OP JIM JIM BT HW?...." Same information, two different modes. If the Morse Code ops are reasonably fast, the time is comparable. It's a different communications experience, just as the written word is a different experience from the spoken word. Fair enough. Exactly. Since the medium and usually the hardware is exactly the same weather or not a microphone or a key is used, why bother with a key that is much more limited? Several reasons: 1) It's often *not* the same hardware. You can use much simpler equipment for Morse Code than for voice modes. Well, I did say "usually". Of course. But wouldn't simpler equipment limit you to code only? That depends on the exact situation. The important point is that once you have Morse Code skills, using code-only equipment isn't really a limitation in most cases. Simplicity of equipment can be very important in some situations. For example, if someone wants to actually build their HF Amateur Radio equipment, it's much simpler and easier to build a Morse Code station than an equivalent-performance voice station. In portable operations, the power requirement, size and weight of a Morse Code station can be less than that of the equivalent voice station. With todays electronics, size and weight really aren't much of an issue. I disagree to a point! Look at the size, weight and performance of HF rigs that you can carry with you. Is there any HF ham rig that's SSB-capable that can compete with the Elecraft KX-1? For fixed-station use, there isn't much size/weight difference, if any. But when you need to carry the rig and batteries any real distance, the differences become apparent. This is also when you will find that the difference in low power performance really matters. 2) It's a different communications experience. (see above). For many of us, that alone makes it worthwhile. I am curious as to what would make it worthwhile. All sorts of things: A) You can communicate without talking or typing. (In a world where a lot of us spend a lot of time on the telephone and computer, being able to communicate another way can be a real treat!) I dunno..I guess I like hearing things like gender or a foreign accent to add spice to communication. Of course. And that's part of the point: different communications experiences. B) The exercise of a skill is fun. Consider the person who learns how to play a musical instrument: do you think making music (performing) is the same experience as listening to recorded music? Hmm..well..not really a good analogy. Listening to music is only a one way street while both performing music, as well as radio communications, is naturally a two way street. I was thinking of the person who performs the music for themselves vs. listening to a recording. Either way, it's still a different experience. Or consider this analogy: It's one thing to drive a car with all the modern conveniences - power steering, automatic transmission, power brakes, cruise control, climate control, etc., and doing it on a smooth straight highway. It's a different experience to drive a car without all those things, on a winding country road where the driver's skill makes a big difference. C) Once you have the skills, communicating with Morse Code can be as easy - or even easier - than using voice. Not quite sure how, but I'll take your word for it. D) You can use Morse Code in situations where voice could not be used. For example, suppose you are in a small house, apartment, RV, tent, etc., and you want to operate without disturbing others (who might be sleeping, talking, etc.). Of course you can put on headphones so they don't hear the received signals, but in order to transmit, you have to talk. Even if you keep your voice down, it can bother others. How many times have you heard people complain about folks using cell phones in public? But with Morse Code and a good pair of cans, you can operate and make less noise than someone typing on a keyboard. Not really a common circumstance, but I see your point here. I think it depends on the amateur's situation. I know plenty of hams with small children in the house, or with limited space for a shack, where the sound issue is a big one. Being able to operate quietly can be the difference between operating and not operating. 3) It takes up much less spectrum. With good equipment, five to ten Morse Code signals can fit in the same spectrum space required by just one single-sideband voice signal. AM and FM take up even more space on the band. Some very valid points here. None of which mean that there *must* be a Morse Code test for an amateur radio license. I happen to think such a test is a good idea, but that's just my opinion. 4) It's more effective under adverse conditions. A Morse Code signal typically has about 10-13 dB of advanatage over single-sideband voice. That's about 2 S-units. Under conditions that make SSB unusable, or barely usable, Morse Code will often be solid copy with good signals. I could see the challenge in this. I remember a certain thrill back when I was a kid, whenever I managed to make out a distant signal and recognize where it was broadcast from. Exactly! The very fact that it takes some skill is part of the fun and attraction. But some here seem to suggest that if no or little skill is required then it's really not worth pursuing. I strongly dispute that. I'm not sure what you mean by "if little or no skill is required, then it's really not worth pursuing". There are other reasons, but those four come to mind right now. Here's one mo 5) The amount of "bad behavior" problems resulting in FCC enforcement actions is much less from radio amateurs using Morse Code. Just look at the FCC enforcement letters that address violations of deliberate interference, obscenity, exceeding license privileges, and other "bad behavior" problems. Almost all of them are for violations committed using voice modes, not Morse Code. The difference is much greater than would be expected from the relative popularity of the modes. This doesn't mean all voice ops are problems or all Morse Code ops are saints! All it means is that there's a lot less enforcement problems from hams actually using Morse Code. Perhaps the typical ages of people who prefer code could be a factor. It does tend to be considerably older people who prefer code. I disagree - for two reasons! First I have found amateurs of all ages who are interested in Morse Code. I have found that young people are interested *if* Morse Code is presented correctly. Some say that, in the modern world, young people who grew up with cell phones and the internet aren't going to sit still for something like Morse Code - or amateur radio. And many won't. However, the very fact that Morse Code is unusual is a big attraction to some of them - *because* it's so different and unusual. They've seen voice comms - they all have cellphones! Typing on a keyboard and reading a screen is something they've seen since they were babies. But Morse Code is completely different. That's what draws many young people - just look at the acceptance of the Harry Potter books. The second reason is that the 'bad behavior' of amateurs on the air doesn't seem to decrease with age. In fact, it may be the opposite! One of the worst offenders here in the USA was a Californian named Jack Gerritsen (ex-KG6IRO). He was found guilty of multiple repeated offenses, all of which involved on-air behavior like jamming, not 'technical' violations. His bad behavior started on the ham bands but spread to public service bands as well, giving amateur radio a black eye. Enforcement efforts up to revoking his license didn't stop him. The guy was totally out of control, a real problem case. So now he is going to prison for seven years and has to pay a fairly serious fine ($21,000US, IIRC). Gerritsen used only voice modes. He is now 70. Somehow, this relates to pixels on my screen but I have yet to understand why my opponent felt the need to misdirect, misrepresent and misquote. Lots of that going around - on both sides. Don't let it bother you - I sure don't. I just don't like the snotty attitude that makes the ARS look so bad. Agreed! There's too much of that type of attitude on *both* sides of the debate. I am still waiting for my government handout. Never had any government handouts in the 44 years I have been around. How does one define "handout"? Based on the comments, it would seem that the offending poster was referring to something that was unique to Canada. About the only thing I can think of is our medical care system. And THAT'S not really free at all, as I will explain further below. I've lost track of who was using the term "handout". I don't think it was you. For example, is public education of children a government handout? Yes, many parents with kids in public school pay school taxes, but in most districts those taxes paid by parents do not cover all of the costs of the public schools. And the level of taxation does not depend on how many children the parents have in school. Is public school a government handout to people with lots of kids? I don't know how Canadian public education is funded, but I suspect that it's not that much different than in the USA - at least to the extent that parents don't pay the full amount, nor does the tax level increase with the number of children in school. Is public education a government handout to people with several children? Or how about tax deductions? Are they a form of government handout? If you have a mortgage or home equity loan, the interest is deductible. If you rent, you don't get that deduction. Is that a government handout to homeowners? Now as for mortgages and home equity loans, the interest is NOT a tax deduction here in Canada. That could be considered a handout that Americans enjoy, something Canadians can't enjoy. Exactly - if one uses the term "handout". A lot of US homeowners would say that they 'deserve' the tax deduction. I would say that the USA uses tax policy as a form of social engineering. By making mortgage and home-equity interest count as a tax deduction, the government is supporting home ownership over renting. Also, Canada is the second highest taxed nation in the world. Really? Who is #1 - Sweden? Renters get a wee bit of a break in some provinces but not here in Alberta, Canada's "Texas". Not trying to be argumentative, just trying to get a clear idea of what is a handout and what isn't. One person's handout is another's entitlement. One more "handout": some (not all) Social Security benefits. Most Americans make payments into Social Security all their working lives. Some never collect a penny, because they die young. But if a person receiving Social Security benefits lives long enough, they will eventually receive more in benefits than they paid into the system - including reasonable interest. Is that a "handout"? Can none of the pro-coders make a valid point? I just made a couple of valid points. That doesn't mean there *must* be a Morse Code test, just that the mode has some good points. Thank you for making some points in a nice, civilized manner. My pleasure. Thanks for reading. My neighbor, when I was about 12 or younger, had a nifty tower setup. He had 2 tall telephone poles in the ground with enough space between them for a third pole bolted in near the top, adding almost the full length of another pole, save for about 6 feet where all three were bolted together. I was self-supporting. Cool! I recently saw a similar setup used for a repeater antenna in a wooded area. It blended in much better than metal tower. Drove by many many years later. Tower gone. Different house on same lot. I guess you can never go back. (sigh) For many years there was a landmark ham tower near here. Custom rotating steel pole, over 100 feet high, with multiple HF Yagis and a full size 2 element 80/75 meter quad. (That's not a typo). All on a typical suburban lot of less than an acre.... It was built by one ham, and when he passed away another one bought the place. But when the second ham passed, the big tower and antennas needed serious work and nobody stepped up to take on the task. So the tower is all gone and the house is like all the others in the area... But some things can be preserved - values, skills, culture. Even if the people and places change. 73 de Jim, N2EY |
#62
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From: on Wed, Oct 11 2006 3:38 am
Opus- wrote: On 5 Oct 2006 17:05:58 -0700, spake thusly: Opus- wrote: On 5 Oct 2006 04:26:28 -0700, spake thusly: Opus- wrote: But when you really listen to the way most people speak, the speed is limited by many things. There's a lot of redundancy in the way many people speak, pauses, repeats, "ums" and "ahs', and little phrases tossed in while the person thinks of what to say next. Meanwhile, the skilled Morse Code operator is using abbreviations and other shortcuts that effectively increase the speed way beyond the raw wpm. A comparison between a poor speaker and a skilled radiotelegrapher is worthy HOW? To shine up the "skilled radiotelegrapher?" [of course...] Compare a good speaker and a poor, unskilled radio- telegrapher's sending and speech becomes way, way faster. With todays electronics, size and weight really aren't much of an issue. I disagree to a point! Look at the size, weight and performance of HF rigs that you can carry with you. Is there any HF ham rig that's SSB-capable that can compete with the Elecraft KX-1? AN/PRC-104...back-pack HF SSB transceiver, operational since 1984. Built by (then) Hughes Aircraft Ground Systems (Hughes purchased by Raytheon). For civilian-only, try the SGC 2020 SSB HF transceiver used by private boat owners as well as hams. For fixed-station use, there isn't much size/weight difference, if any. But when you need to carry the rig and batteries any real distance, the differences become apparent. This is also when you will find that the difference in low power performance really matters. The PRC-104 has an integral automatic antenna matching package (to the right of the transceiver itself). This insures that the manpack set's whip antenna is always tuned for optimum radiated transmission power. SGC has several antenna autotuner models available; separate equipments. Or consider this analogy: It's one thing to drive a car with all the modern conveniences - power steering, automatic transmission, power brakes, cruise control, climate control, etc., and doing it on a smooth straight highway. It's a different experience to drive a car without all those things, on a winding country road where the driver's skill makes a big difference. You have much experience on "winding country roads?" :-) [of course you do, you are an amateur extra morseman...] Are you advocating "no-frills" personal vehicles? Why? I learned to drive in a 1939 Ford, NO automatic trans- mission, NO power steering, NO power brakes, No cruise control, NO "climate control" other than the standard heater. Training ground was an abandoned army camp, one which DID have a few "winding (dirt) roads." If you think for one minute that I would give up a nice, comfortable, well-equipped 2005 Chevy Malibu MAXX just to "rough it" for SOMEONE ELSE'S IDEA of what constitutes "good driving," you've got your head up your ass. Having earned my Army driving license, I will personally challenge you to a Jeep gymkhana (Jeep circa 1940s-1960s) at everything from "smooth straight highways" through "winding country roads" on to OFF-ROAD ANYTHING. I will WIN. Been there, did that, got T-shirts, etc. That standard issue Jeep had NO amenities except for the post-1950 winch and cable over the front bumper. "Climate control" was whatever the climate was outside. The "power transmission" was a couple gear shifts operated by arm strength and experienced clutch operation. Ptui. HOW MANY personal vehicles have YOU DESIGNED and BUILT? Include auto kits if you need to. HOW MANY thousands of miles have YOU driven? Over "winding country roads?" [I don't think so unless you count the old driveway to the Doylestown Barn Cinema...] I've driven the VERY winding country road (rough surface) to a Wyoming working ranch (cattle brand registered in Wyoming is "B-1 Bomber") from/to highway. Perhaps the typical ages of people who prefer code could be a factor. It does tend to be considerably older people who prefer code. I disagree - for two reasons! First I have found amateurs of all ages who are interested in Morse Code. If all you have is a hammer, naturally everything looks like a nail to you... I have found that young people are interested *if* Morse Code is presented correctly. Sado-masochism is still prevalent in the human condition. Some say that, in the modern world, young people who grew up with cell phones and the internet aren't going to sit still for something like Morse Code - or amateur radio. And many won't. Unquantified numbers. You are waffling on your emotional reasons. However, the very fact that Morse Code is unusual is a big attraction to some of them - *because* it's so different and unusual. They've seen voice comms - they all have cellphones! Typing on a keyboard and reading a screen is something they've seen since they were babies. One in three Americans has a cell phone. Census Bureau said so in a public statement in 2004. Back in the late 1940s - a time well before cell phones, personal computers, with (mostly) only sound broadcasting - there was NO great "novelty" or "interest" in morse code communications. Been there, seen that, see no difference now. But Morse Code is completely different. That's what draws many young people - just look at the acceptance of the Harry Potter books. So, write the author of the "Harry Potter" series and have her (J. K. Rowling) "introduce" morse code as "magic." :-) BWAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHAAAAAAAAAHAAHAAHAAHAAHAAHAA HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! * M A G I C M O R S E * BWAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHAAAAAAAAAHAAHAAHAAHAAHAAHAA HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! But some things can be preserved - values, skills, culture. Even if the people and places change. Preservation of the Past is the job of MUSEUMS. Why do you insist on keeping a "living museum" in amateur radio through federal license testing for morse code in only AMATEUR radio? YOU had to test for it so everyone else has to... Fraternal order HAZING having NO tangible value except to amuse those ALREADY tested for code. |
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#64
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Is the code requirement really keeping good people out of ham radio?
wrote in message oups.com... Opus- wrote: On Tue, 19 Sep 2006 08:19:27 -0400, jawod spake thusly: Who the **** are YOU to make such a statement? You snot nosed, arrogant PRICK! You do NOT know the kind of person that I am!! Wake up and smell the cappuccino! Code is obsolete! Knowing code does NOTHING to make somebody an "asset to the service". And, could you explain what makes a person an "asset to the service"? Jeez, Chill out, eh? Sorry, but I get upset with people who make statements that are easily taken as personal insults. "Stuff happens." BTW, this "Jawod" signed a message on rec.radio.amateur.homebrew as "AB8O." I found a blank on that call sign at QRZ. Yes it's obsolete. Yes, it's fun. I found it to be cold and impersonal. I agree. Manual radiotelegraphy has NONE of the body language or tone of voice or much of anything that is normal in everyday person-to-person contacts. Using this monotonic form of very early radio allows any user to be anything they want with no real references to anything but the ability to send telegraphy. Should it be used to qualify? Let the FCC decide (soon). Here in Canada, they already have. I believe the FCC will soon. If it is eliminated, will that change the "Service"? Maybe. Probably not. Heh heh...if the test is eliminated the expressed outrage, anguish, and horror will be a horrendous wail never to be silenced until the last code key is pried from cold, dead fingers! :-) Will CW disappear? Probably not. Historically, it defined ham radio, so it has a special place in the hearts of very many hams. It's natural that they sort of cling to it. Let them cling, they are free to do so. I'd say "clog" as in cholesterol clogging those "hearts." "Jawod" uses "many" AS IF it were quantitative. Not so much in the USA now. The US Technician class licensees now number about 49% of all, twice as large a number as the General class. I doubt they want to hear such facts. Will CW's elimination be the end of ham radio? Of course not. Ham radio will cease when all the hams die off. New hams are needed, with or without code. I totally agree. In the USA the number of newcomers is not able to keep pace with the expirations of licensees. That trend has been evident for more than a year. [see www.hamdata.com] The majority of new licensees are Technician class. Novice class, the supposed traditional "beginner" license has been expiring at a steady rate for years before the US changes in 2000. My personal hope is that a significant minority of these new hams will take up CW and learn to enjoy this mode. It truly is a fun mode. I hope people will WANT to learn it. I always found it to be boring. "Jawod" and other morsemen think that all will "like" what they like. They really don't understand what other citizens want. Compulsory things are seldom welcome,,,some are necessary. Is CW a good requirement for ham radio? I guess it has probably outlived its day. A requirement related to other digital modes would make a good replacement. True? I completely agree. If you want to filter out the less serious, then use a relevant method. Here in Canada, in order to get a no-code licence, you must get at least 80% on the technical. And technical prowess will always be important regardless of the mode of communication. That sounds fair. In general I've approved what Industry Canada does on communications regulations...a bit more than what the FCC does for US civil radio services. Im sure the numbers would look even wose if the licenses expired sooner. Most of the new hams I know lose interest in a couple of years, long befor the licence expires. |
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Is the code requirement really keeping good people out of ham radio?
Jimmie D wrote: Im sure the numbers would look even wose if the licenses expired sooner. Most of the new hams I know lose interest in a couple of years, long befor the licence expires. Those darned new hams. They never should have been licensured in the first place. Didn't have the ooomph to get licensed when the tests were harder so they weren't really that innerested in the first place. Didn't show the proper dedication. |
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Is the code requirement really keeping good people out of ham radio?
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#67
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Is the code requirement really keeping good people out of ham radio?
an_old_friend wrote: wrote: Jimmie D wrote: Im sure the numbers would look even wose if the licenses expired sooner. Most of the new hams I know lose interest in a couple of years, long befor the licence expires. Those darned new hams. They never should have been licensured in the first place. Didn't have the ooomph to get licensed when the tests were harder so they weren't really that innerested in the first place. Didn't show the proper dedication. and of course none of the failure of hams to reamin hams is due to bull**** they must endure from other hams Of course not! Ham radio is a swell fellowship of men. What you see on RRAP n't ham radio. |
#68
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Is the code requirement really keeping good people out of ham radio?
wrote: an_old_friend wrote: wrote: Jimmie D wrote: and of course none of the failure of hams to reamin hams is due to bull**** they must endure from other hams Of course not! Ham radio is a swell fellowship of men. What you see on RRAP n't ham radio. realy it isn't that much different from what i encounters on air with a sad frequency |
#69
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Is the code requirement really keeping good people out of ham radio?
"an_old_friend" wrote in message ups.com... wrote: an_old_friend wrote: wrote: Jimmie D wrote: and of course none of the failure of hams to reamin hams is due to bull**** they must endure from other hams Of course not! Ham radio is a swell fellowship of men. What you see on RRAP n't ham radio. realy it isn't that much different from what i encounters on air with a sad frequency Well then Mark, do you think, just for a second, that possibly, just maybe, that it could be YOU that brings out the best in everyone? |
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Is the code requirement really keeping good people out of ham radio?
"Jimmie D" wrote in
: wrote in message oups.com... Opus- wrote: On Tue, 19 Sep 2006 08:19:27 -0400, jawod spake thusly: Who the **** are YOU to make such a statement? You snot nosed, arrogant PRICK! You do NOT know the kind of person that I am!! Wake up and smell the cappuccino! Code is obsolete! Knowing code does NOTHING to make somebody an "asset to the service". And, could you explain what makes a person an "asset to the service"? Jeez, Chill out, eh? Sorry, but I get upset with people who make statements that are easily taken as personal insults. "Stuff happens." BTW, this "Jawod" signed a message on rec.radio.amateur.homebrew as "AB8O." I found a blank on that call sign at QRZ. Yes it's obsolete. Yes, it's fun. I found it to be cold and impersonal. I agree. Manual radiotelegraphy has NONE of the body language or tone of voice or much of anything that is normal in everyday person-to-person contacts. Using this monotonic form of very early radio allows any user to be anything they want with no real references to anything but the ability to send telegraphy. Should it be used to qualify? Let the FCC decide (soon). Here in Canada, they already have. I believe the FCC will soon. If it is eliminated, will that change the "Service"? Maybe. Probably not. Heh heh...if the test is eliminated the expressed outrage, anguish, and horror will be a horrendous wail never to be silenced until the last code key is pried from cold, dead fingers! :-) Will CW disappear? Probably not. Historically, it defined ham radio, so it has a special place in the hearts of very many hams. It's natural that they sort of cling to it. Let them cling, they are free to do so. I'd say "clog" as in cholesterol clogging those "hearts." "Jawod" uses "many" AS IF it were quantitative. Not so much in the USA now. The US Technician class licensees now number about 49% of all, twice as large a number as the General class. I doubt they want to hear such facts. Will CW's elimination be the end of ham radio? Of course not. Ham radio will cease when all the hams die off. New hams are needed, with or without code. I totally agree. In the USA the number of newcomers is not able to keep pace with the expirations of licensees. That trend has been evident for more than a year. [see www.hamdata.com] The majority of new licensees are Technician class. Novice class, the supposed traditional "beginner" license has been expiring at a steady rate for years before the US changes in 2000. My personal hope is that a significant minority of these new hams will take up CW and learn to enjoy this mode. It truly is a fun mode. I hope people will WANT to learn it. I always found it to be boring. "Jawod" and other morsemen think that all will "like" what they like. They really don't understand what other citizens want. Compulsory things are seldom welcome,,,some are necessary. Is CW a good requirement for ham radio? I guess it has probably outlived its day. A requirement related to other digital modes would make a good replacement. True? I completely agree. If you want to filter out the less serious, then use a relevant method. Here in Canada, in order to get a no-code licence, you must get at least 80% on the technical. And technical prowess will always be important regardless of the mode of communication. That sounds fair. In general I've approved what Industry Canada does on communications regulations...a bit more than what the FCC does for US civil radio services. Im sure the numbers would look even wose if the licenses expired sooner. Most of the new hams I know lose interest in a couple of years, long befor the licence expires. That's what happens when something gets dumbed down. It cheapens it, and people find no value in maintaining or continuing with it. SC |
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