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Opus- wrote:
Sorry I am late in replying. Holiday weekend here in Canada. I hope it was a good one. On 5 Oct 2006 17:05:58 -0700, spake thusly: Opus- wrote: On 5 Oct 2006 04:26:28 -0700, spake thusly: Opus- wrote: The statement is quite simple...a voice on the airwaves can convey much more information than just the words spoken but CW can only convey the words. Morse Code can convey more than the words - if the operators are skilled in it. One of those old timers once told me that he recognized another operators "hand" back when I watched him operate. Yup. Little things about an op's sending can make it as recognizable as a familiar voice. btw, the term "fist" is used in the same context as "hand" was used by that op. Never heard the term "fist" used in this context but it's been a while since I have spent much time with a coder. Both terms are used. Some folks use the term "swing" as well, but that's not exactly a compliment. I am not sure how much more a person can get out of code. The words, of course. How they are sent can tell a lot, too. It takes a bit of experience to recognize all the subtleties of Morse Code. The main point is that skilled Morse Code operators can convey more than 'just the words'. It's not the same thing as a voice, though. I think that is your main point. More than words, but how much more? Quite a bit, but obviously not as much as a voice. The main point is that skilled operators get more than 'just the words'. It's a bit similar to the way that one's perception of the written word is affected by the font, punctuation, capitalization, etc. Not exactly the same, but similar. I also have to believe that code is slower than speech. Not usually a big issue but an issue none the less. Like many things, "it depends". The raw speed of the spoken word is obviously faster. But when you really listen to the way most people speak, the speed is limited by many things. There's a lot of redundancy in the way many people speak, pauses, repeats, "ums" and "ahs', and little phrases tossed in while the person thinks of what to say next. Meanwhile, the skilled Morse Code operator is using abbreviations and other shortcuts that effectively increase the speed way beyond the raw wpm. For example, the first response in a voice QSO might go like this: "VE6QRM, victor-echo-six-quebec-romeo-mike, this is N2EY, november-two-echo-yankee, thanks for the call. You're five and nine, five-nine here, good clear signals. I am in Wayne, Pennsylvania, that's Wayne, whiskey-alpha-yankee-november-echo, Pennsylvania, papa-alpha. Name here is Jim, john-ida-mike, Jim. How do you copy me?....." while using Morse Code, the same exchange could be: "VE6QRM DE N2EY TNX CL BT UR 599 599 GUD SIG IN WAYNE PA WAYNE PA BT OP JIM JIM BT HW?...." Same information, two different modes. If the Morse Code ops are reasonably fast, the time is comparable. It's a different communications experience, just as the written word is a different experience from the spoken word. Fair enough. Exactly. Since the medium and usually the hardware is exactly the same weather or not a microphone or a key is used, why bother with a key that is much more limited? Several reasons: 1) It's often *not* the same hardware. You can use much simpler equipment for Morse Code than for voice modes. Well, I did say "usually". Of course. But wouldn't simpler equipment limit you to code only? That depends on the exact situation. The important point is that once you have Morse Code skills, using code-only equipment isn't really a limitation in most cases. Simplicity of equipment can be very important in some situations. For example, if someone wants to actually build their HF Amateur Radio equipment, it's much simpler and easier to build a Morse Code station than an equivalent-performance voice station. In portable operations, the power requirement, size and weight of a Morse Code station can be less than that of the equivalent voice station. With todays electronics, size and weight really aren't much of an issue. I disagree to a point! Look at the size, weight and performance of HF rigs that you can carry with you. Is there any HF ham rig that's SSB-capable that can compete with the Elecraft KX-1? For fixed-station use, there isn't much size/weight difference, if any. But when you need to carry the rig and batteries any real distance, the differences become apparent. This is also when you will find that the difference in low power performance really matters. 2) It's a different communications experience. (see above). For many of us, that alone makes it worthwhile. I am curious as to what would make it worthwhile. All sorts of things: A) You can communicate without talking or typing. (In a world where a lot of us spend a lot of time on the telephone and computer, being able to communicate another way can be a real treat!) I dunno..I guess I like hearing things like gender or a foreign accent to add spice to communication. Of course. And that's part of the point: different communications experiences. B) The exercise of a skill is fun. Consider the person who learns how to play a musical instrument: do you think making music (performing) is the same experience as listening to recorded music? Hmm..well..not really a good analogy. Listening to music is only a one way street while both performing music, as well as radio communications, is naturally a two way street. I was thinking of the person who performs the music for themselves vs. listening to a recording. Either way, it's still a different experience. Or consider this analogy: It's one thing to drive a car with all the modern conveniences - power steering, automatic transmission, power brakes, cruise control, climate control, etc., and doing it on a smooth straight highway. It's a different experience to drive a car without all those things, on a winding country road where the driver's skill makes a big difference. C) Once you have the skills, communicating with Morse Code can be as easy - or even easier - than using voice. Not quite sure how, but I'll take your word for it. D) You can use Morse Code in situations where voice could not be used. For example, suppose you are in a small house, apartment, RV, tent, etc., and you want to operate without disturbing others (who might be sleeping, talking, etc.). Of course you can put on headphones so they don't hear the received signals, but in order to transmit, you have to talk. Even if you keep your voice down, it can bother others. How many times have you heard people complain about folks using cell phones in public? But with Morse Code and a good pair of cans, you can operate and make less noise than someone typing on a keyboard. Not really a common circumstance, but I see your point here. I think it depends on the amateur's situation. I know plenty of hams with small children in the house, or with limited space for a shack, where the sound issue is a big one. Being able to operate quietly can be the difference between operating and not operating. 3) It takes up much less spectrum. With good equipment, five to ten Morse Code signals can fit in the same spectrum space required by just one single-sideband voice signal. AM and FM take up even more space on the band. Some very valid points here. None of which mean that there *must* be a Morse Code test for an amateur radio license. I happen to think such a test is a good idea, but that's just my opinion. 4) It's more effective under adverse conditions. A Morse Code signal typically has about 10-13 dB of advanatage over single-sideband voice. That's about 2 S-units. Under conditions that make SSB unusable, or barely usable, Morse Code will often be solid copy with good signals. I could see the challenge in this. I remember a certain thrill back when I was a kid, whenever I managed to make out a distant signal and recognize where it was broadcast from. Exactly! The very fact that it takes some skill is part of the fun and attraction. But some here seem to suggest that if no or little skill is required then it's really not worth pursuing. I strongly dispute that. I'm not sure what you mean by "if little or no skill is required, then it's really not worth pursuing". There are other reasons, but those four come to mind right now. Here's one mo 5) The amount of "bad behavior" problems resulting in FCC enforcement actions is much less from radio amateurs using Morse Code. Just look at the FCC enforcement letters that address violations of deliberate interference, obscenity, exceeding license privileges, and other "bad behavior" problems. Almost all of them are for violations committed using voice modes, not Morse Code. The difference is much greater than would be expected from the relative popularity of the modes. This doesn't mean all voice ops are problems or all Morse Code ops are saints! All it means is that there's a lot less enforcement problems from hams actually using Morse Code. Perhaps the typical ages of people who prefer code could be a factor. It does tend to be considerably older people who prefer code. I disagree - for two reasons! First I have found amateurs of all ages who are interested in Morse Code. I have found that young people are interested *if* Morse Code is presented correctly. Some say that, in the modern world, young people who grew up with cell phones and the internet aren't going to sit still for something like Morse Code - or amateur radio. And many won't. However, the very fact that Morse Code is unusual is a big attraction to some of them - *because* it's so different and unusual. They've seen voice comms - they all have cellphones! Typing on a keyboard and reading a screen is something they've seen since they were babies. But Morse Code is completely different. That's what draws many young people - just look at the acceptance of the Harry Potter books. The second reason is that the 'bad behavior' of amateurs on the air doesn't seem to decrease with age. In fact, it may be the opposite! One of the worst offenders here in the USA was a Californian named Jack Gerritsen (ex-KG6IRO). He was found guilty of multiple repeated offenses, all of which involved on-air behavior like jamming, not 'technical' violations. His bad behavior started on the ham bands but spread to public service bands as well, giving amateur radio a black eye. Enforcement efforts up to revoking his license didn't stop him. The guy was totally out of control, a real problem case. So now he is going to prison for seven years and has to pay a fairly serious fine ($21,000US, IIRC). Gerritsen used only voice modes. He is now 70. Somehow, this relates to pixels on my screen but I have yet to understand why my opponent felt the need to misdirect, misrepresent and misquote. Lots of that going around - on both sides. Don't let it bother you - I sure don't. I just don't like the snotty attitude that makes the ARS look so bad. Agreed! There's too much of that type of attitude on *both* sides of the debate. I am still waiting for my government handout. Never had any government handouts in the 44 years I have been around. How does one define "handout"? Based on the comments, it would seem that the offending poster was referring to something that was unique to Canada. About the only thing I can think of is our medical care system. And THAT'S not really free at all, as I will explain further below. I've lost track of who was using the term "handout". I don't think it was you. For example, is public education of children a government handout? Yes, many parents with kids in public school pay school taxes, but in most districts those taxes paid by parents do not cover all of the costs of the public schools. And the level of taxation does not depend on how many children the parents have in school. Is public school a government handout to people with lots of kids? I don't know how Canadian public education is funded, but I suspect that it's not that much different than in the USA - at least to the extent that parents don't pay the full amount, nor does the tax level increase with the number of children in school. Is public education a government handout to people with several children? Or how about tax deductions? Are they a form of government handout? If you have a mortgage or home equity loan, the interest is deductible. If you rent, you don't get that deduction. Is that a government handout to homeowners? Now as for mortgages and home equity loans, the interest is NOT a tax deduction here in Canada. That could be considered a handout that Americans enjoy, something Canadians can't enjoy. Exactly - if one uses the term "handout". A lot of US homeowners would say that they 'deserve' the tax deduction. I would say that the USA uses tax policy as a form of social engineering. By making mortgage and home-equity interest count as a tax deduction, the government is supporting home ownership over renting. Also, Canada is the second highest taxed nation in the world. Really? Who is #1 - Sweden? Renters get a wee bit of a break in some provinces but not here in Alberta, Canada's "Texas". Not trying to be argumentative, just trying to get a clear idea of what is a handout and what isn't. One person's handout is another's entitlement. One more "handout": some (not all) Social Security benefits. Most Americans make payments into Social Security all their working lives. Some never collect a penny, because they die young. But if a person receiving Social Security benefits lives long enough, they will eventually receive more in benefits than they paid into the system - including reasonable interest. Is that a "handout"? Can none of the pro-coders make a valid point? I just made a couple of valid points. That doesn't mean there *must* be a Morse Code test, just that the mode has some good points. Thank you for making some points in a nice, civilized manner. My pleasure. Thanks for reading. My neighbor, when I was about 12 or younger, had a nifty tower setup. He had 2 tall telephone poles in the ground with enough space between them for a third pole bolted in near the top, adding almost the full length of another pole, save for about 6 feet where all three were bolted together. I was self-supporting. Cool! I recently saw a similar setup used for a repeater antenna in a wooded area. It blended in much better than metal tower. Drove by many many years later. Tower gone. Different house on same lot. I guess you can never go back. (sigh) For many years there was a landmark ham tower near here. Custom rotating steel pole, over 100 feet high, with multiple HF Yagis and a full size 2 element 80/75 meter quad. (That's not a typo). All on a typical suburban lot of less than an acre.... It was built by one ham, and when he passed away another one bought the place. But when the second ham passed, the big tower and antennas needed serious work and nobody stepped up to take on the task. So the tower is all gone and the house is like all the others in the area... But some things can be preserved - values, skills, culture. Even if the people and places change. 73 de Jim, N2EY |
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