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"Dee D. Flint" wrote in message

In emergencies hams are NOT broadcasting to the public. They are using
their skills to pass messages from the public and emergency services to the
public and emergency services via the ham network. No one has to be able to
understand the message while it is in transit except the hams. Thus hams
can and will use any means at their disposal appropriate to the situation,
that includes voice, computer digital modes and good old Morse code.

Dee D. Flint, N8UZE

Bravo!!! It's nice to find some common sense out here in the
wilderness. You summed it all up in a nutshell that maybe even ole
Jeff can grasp and understand. Then again, maybe not...:( Most "live"
emergencies that a ham would handle on the air, are from other hams in
trouble. The sailboat I mentioned was a ham in a sailboat. Not a
commercial vessel. I would think it quite rare to hear a commercial
vessel call a ham for help. But we can handle traffic to and from
anyone that might need it. But we can do it any ole way we please. If
the general public can't decipher it, thats just too bad. MK

Even the people who want to drop the code testing requirement will
eventually discover that CW is still quite useful for that situation. I
think if the testing is dropped, a fairly large number of hams will decide
to learn it for that very reason.

The difference will be that these hams will have had a chance to experience
HF and its many thrills and challenges THEMSELVES before they learn the
code, which means that learning the code will be that much more rewarding
because they can see the practical application of it. Not everyone has the
foresight to understand this about the CW mode without having experienced it
themselves, and forcing the issue through testing can't change that; the
testing merely attempts to make hams prepare themselves for HF work.

- Doug

"Dee D. Flint" wrote in message
om...

What are you going to use when HF propagation is too weak to support
voice???

Dee D. Flint, N8UZE

What are you going to use when HF propagation is too weak to support
voice???

Dee D. Flint, N8UZE

1. Change frequency.
2. Use relaying to get messages through. (After all isn't that we
supposedly train for, as well as one of the principles of the Nation Traffic
System??

Nowhere is it said that in an emergency that the message MUST make it in ONE
"hop." (i.e. no relaying) I am quite sure that message traffic from larger
incidents like the big earthquake in California quite a few years ago didn't
make it out of the area in within just one hop. (The traffic being sent
around the country that is)

Ryan KC8PMX

"Ryan, KC8PMX" wrote in message
...

What are you going to use when HF propagation is too weak to support
voice???

Dee D. Flint, N8UZE

1. Change frequency.
2. Use relaying to get messages through. (After all isn't that we
supposedly train for, as well as one of the principles of the Nation
Traffic
System??

Nowhere is it said that in an emergency that the message MUST make it in
ONE
"hop." (i.e. no relaying) I am quite sure that message traffic from larger
incidents like the big earthquake in California quite a few years ago
didn't
make it out of the area in within just one hop. (The traffic being sent
around the country that is)

Ryan KC8PMX

If HF isn't supporting voice propagation, to what frequency would you
suggest changing? Oh yeah, VHF/UHF when you're too far out to reach
anybody. Right. Disasters don't just happen in only in areas small enough
where you can relay out. If some of the island nations (or states like
Hawaii) get hard hit, say by a hurricane, your only chance may very well be
HF.

VHF/UHF is fine for short distances but if the next active station is over
20 or 30 miles away, there is often very little chance of a relay. Many
islands are far more than 20 or 30 miles from the next nearest inhabited
land mass. On the other hand, with HF, one can reach hundreds of miles even
with minimal antennas. This gives you a chance to set up a relay. But if
propagation is poor, voice may not be intelligible yet CW will often come
through quite clearly under those conditions.

Dee D. Flint, N8UZE

Point is, CW is not used for marine emergencies anymore.

Says who? I or the victim in distress can use any mode we/they choose.
Thank you very much.

Well, knowing that the U.S. Coast Guard, and many other equivalent services
in other countries DO NOT monitor CW any more, AND CW being slower and
more cumbersome than voice, you'd have to be pretty damned stupid to USE
CW in an emergency situation!

Let's all hope and pray that he DOES use CW in an emergency.

What are you going to use when HF propagation is too weak to support
voice???

That was already answered higher up in the thread, I will requote that part:

The International Maritime Organization officially phased out Morse code Feb.
1 for ships in peril, replacing it with the high-tech Global Maritime Distress
and
Safety System.

So that answer would be, the Global Maritime Distress and Safety System.

Satellites and GPS are far more reliable than HF. Keep in mind code was
invented and used because there were no microphones invented yet.
Likewise, HF was ok before we had satellites and GPS. When a friend of
mine recently traveled overseas, I was able to track the entire flight from
several free websites that you just enter in the flight number and you get a
constant read out of speed, altitude, location and maps to show you exactly
where the plane was the whole time. With technology like this, no one even
needs to call for help anymore, when the signal stops, we know exactly where
it was when it stopped and can go looking for it.

Why do so many people want to throw all this technology away and force
everyone to stay with antiquated forms of communication like HF and Morse
Code?

What next? Will they start a movement to force all of us to get rid of our
washing machines and have to use old washboards instead so THEY will be happy?

I for one, gladly embrace new technology that makes life easier and
better. Wanting to play around with HF and Morse Code for a hobby to get a
nostalgic feeling of yesteryear is fine, but be realistic and don't come up
with ridiculous ideas to force others to use it.

People who bowl or play golf don't force everyone else to do that either.
Hams that use microphones don't tell morse code lovers they have to use
microphones, so why can't the stubborn headed morse code loving hams just
enjoy their hobbies without forcing everyone else in the world to do what THEY
want to do.

1. Change frequency.

Preferably to the legal one you should have been using in the first place that
we know is being monitored.

2. Use relaying to get messages through.

Or ...

The International Maritime Organization officially phased out Morse code for
ships
in peril, replacing it with the high-tech Global Maritime Distress and
Safety System.

If HF isn't supporting voice propagation, to what frequency would you
suggest changing?

If you were ever out in that situation LEGALLY, you would know the answer,
because you are supposed to know the frequencies before you leave shore.

The International Maritime Organization officially phased out Morse code
for ships in peril, replacing it with the high-tech Global Maritime Distress and

Safety System.

Satellites and GPS. To HF as microphones are to morse code keys. To HF as
telephones are to telegraph systems. To HF as cars are to horses and camels.

"Jeff Renkin" wrote in message
...
What are you going to use when HF propagation is too weak to support
voice???

That was already answered higher up in the thread, I will requote that
part:

The International Maritime Organization officially phased out Morse code
Feb.
1 for ships in peril, replacing it with the high-tech Global Maritime
Distress
and
Safety System.

So that answer would be, the Global Maritime Distress and Safety System.

So this system is installed on all boats and planes of all sizes both
private and commercial? I seriously doubt that.

Satellites and GPS are far more reliable than HF. Keep in mind code
was
invented and used because there were no microphones invented yet.
Likewise, HF was ok before we had satellites and GPS. When a friend of
mine recently traveled overseas, I was able to track the entire flight
from
several free websites that you just enter in the flight number and you get
a
constant read out of speed, altitude, location and maps to show you
exactly
where the plane was the whole time. With technology like this, no one
even
needs to call for help anymore, when the signal stops, we know exactly
where
it was when it stopped and can go looking for it.

Why do so many people want to throw all this technology away and force
everyone to stay with antiquated forms of communication like HF and Morse
Code?

No we do not wish to throw away all the new technology. We want to keep a
viable communications mode in case that new technology fails. That is all.
The invention of the typewriter and later the word processor does not make
handwriting completely obsolete.

What next? Will they start a movement to force all of us to get rid of
our
washing machines and have to use old washboards instead so THEY will be
happy?

I for one, gladly embrace new technology that makes life easier and
better. Wanting to play around with HF and Morse Code for a hobby to
get a
nostalgic feeling of yesteryear is fine, but be realistic and don't come
up
with ridiculous ideas to force others to use it.

This new technology that you embrace was invented by the same people who
want to keep code. Complex infrastructures should always be backed up by
simple basic methods.

Dee D. Flint, N8UZE

Jeff Renkin wrote:
Jeff Renkin wrote in message
...
What are you going to use when HF propagation is too weak to support
voice???

That was already answered higher up in the thread, I will requote that part:

The International Maritime Organization officially phased out Morse code Feb.
1 for ships in peril, replacing it with the high-tech Global Maritime Distress
and
Safety System.

FOR COMMERCIAL VESSELS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

So that answer would be, the Global Maritime Distress and Safety System.

Right...A guy on a 20 ft sailboat is going to buy a system that costs
more than his boat...Good grief....Get a grip.

Satellites and GPS are far more reliable than HF. Keep in mind code was
invented and used because there were no microphones invented yet.
Likewise, HF was ok before we had satellites and GPS. When a friend of
mine recently traveled overseas, I was able to track the entire flight from
several free websites that you just enter in the flight number and you get a
constant read out of speed, altitude, location and maps to show you exactly
where the plane was the whole time. With technology like this, no one even
needs to call for help anymore, when the signal stops, we know exactly where
it was when it stopped and can go looking for it.

How many people do you know with small private boats, that have the
normally COMMERCIALLY USED GMDSS system onboard? This is not a trick
question...You can take your time, if this hurts your brain.
Most people running 20 ft sailboats do not have the resources of
American Airlines, or a large shipping company. Also, in most cases, the
info you see on that airnav website will be estimated much of the time.
The only time the aircraft will be spitting out that info is if they
send it out via ACARS. And they don't do that every few minutes. That
and any radar transponder info from air traffic controllers. I receive
ACARS direct on my rig, so I'm familiar with how they operate, what they
send, and how often they usually spit out coordinates. It's really not
that often. Some hardly ever do...If a plane crashed, it's not going to
instantly show up on airnav software.

Why do so many people want to throw all this technology away and force
everyone to stay with antiquated forms of communication like HF and Morse
Code?

There is no one throwing anything away. We have nothing to do with
commercial marine systems. I've never heard of a single ham that
suggests they should do away with their COMMERCIALLY used GMDSS system.

What next? Will they start a movement to force all of us to get rid of our
washing machines and have to use old washboards instead so THEY will be happy?

If we decided to change all commercial vessels back to 500kc morse, you
might have a point. But we aren't , so you don't.

I for one, gladly embrace new technology that makes life easier and
better.

Yea, I bet you will install all that stuff on a 20 ft sailboat. Real
soon...At O-clock I bet...
I use all the latest technology too, but that doesn't mean I'm dumping
all my older ones just to look stylish. The newer ones just add to the
ones I already have at my disposal.

Wanting to play around with HF and Morse Code for a hobby to get a
nostalgic feeling of yesteryear is fine, but be realistic and don't come up
with ridiculous ideas to force others to use it.

There is no one forcing anyone to do anything. Trying to compare
requirements for a commercial marine system to amateur radio is
ridiculous. You are the one that needs to get realistic. Why do you keep
trying to force this down everyones throat when it's not even a system
that private boats use with any regularity at all? As far as I know, the
"least" vessel required to use that system is one that carries over 12
passengers on *international* voyages. What do you suggest the people
with 20 ft sailboats, carrying 3 people on a short hop down the coast
use? This is not a trick question. Take your time.

People who bowl or play golf don't force everyone else to do that either.
Hams that use microphones don't tell morse code lovers they have to use
microphones, so why can't the stubborn headed morse code loving hams just
enjoy their hobbies without forcing everyone else in the world to do what THEY
want to do.

How are we forcing anyone to do anything? We amateurs don't make the
rules #1.
Why do some seriously misguided people insist on telling me how I should
operate my radio station when handling emergency traffic to someone who
wouldn't ever be likely to have GMDSS gear at all?
Why on earth would you even care what mode I use. I don't tell you what
modes you should use. I could care less.
Like I said the other day, hell will be freezing over before I would
ever be likely to handle emergency traffic from a large commercial
vessel. I don't care what gear they use. Yea, maybe in 1912 when the
titanic took a swim, but not now, or even when they still used the old
system in recent years. You need to get a grip and quit confusing a
commercial marine system with amateur radio.

All you seem to care about is being able to use a frigging microphone on
the HF ham bands without taking that dog slow 5 wpm code test. What on
earth does this have to do with commercial marine GMDSS systems? Crap,
it only takes about two weeks to learn 5 wpm code. Maybe a month at the
most for people like you who have a mental block. You can say anything
you want, but to me, anyone that will not even attempt to pass that test
is just plain lazy if they really want a ticket. And I have no problems
with that either, until they start whining about it.
I bet I could teach code to the piano playing chickens at the "IQ Zoo"
in Hot Springs AR. faster than you will ever get it. Why, because all
you seem to want to do is whine about it. Truly pitiful if you ask me.
Those chickens won't whine. All they will want is a small treat of food
after they pass each letter. I had to learn stuff for the written tests
that I will never use, but you don't see me whining about it. If the US
drops code testing, fine. But they haven't yet, and whining about it
will do you no good at all. The FCC could care less about whining
no-code advocates.
MK

P.S I reposted this on my server cuz google crapped negative on me when
I pulled the trigger. If it dupes, oh well...
--
http://web.wt.net/~nm5k