"D Peter Maus" wrote in message
...
David Eduardo wrote:

See, I disagree with that. While I hear your objections, and have
heard them before, often at the top of someone's lungs, I've been
personally involved in too many meetings where we did, as a radio station,
sell directly to an agency, and we did change the parameters of a buy. I"m
not saying its easy, but it IS possible. And it does bear fruit...both for
the end client and the station, which means it also bears fruit for the
agency.

The cunundrum or Catch 22 is that any station that tries to program for
older demos starts off with no advertising opportunities except local direct
and a few local agencies that are willing to look for some different
solutions. The agency business that makes or breaks stations in larger
metros will, if anything is possible, take years to work on.

I understand that agencies are too important to get their hands dirty
with Radio. They're agencies. Radio is...well, the home of disk
jockeys...and perceptually, that's not a positive.

The big reason is that agencies make money on creative and that means print
and TV production, not on radio spots. In addition, radio is costly to buy
and that means that a buying service is often employed... and that is where
no changes in media specs ever happen.

One of the many reasons that agencies do the things they do is to throw up
walls between themselves and media so that the agency can call the shots.
And they're notoriously intractable. And they don't care about anybody's
rules. At the Chicago Addy's Leo Burnett used to submit their national
McDonald's spots in the local station promo category, where they clearly
did not belong. The swept the category.

But you are addressing creative. The creative is a joint deal with the
client, where the agency does have considerable leeway.
The demos, though, come from the client in most cases. Or are worked out
with the agency as part of designing the campaign.

We got on their buys. Through ups and downs, through manglement
changes, PD changes, music changes, and severe ratings slumps. And we
stayed on the buy.

In this case, you were close enough to effect format acceptance. Try that
with demos, though.

When the station hit #1, it was converting at 200%+ Sometimes
dramatically higher than that. And almost always including demos NOT
requested by the agencies.

As long as you had enough in demo numbers to justify the buy, the agency is
happy. Agencies routinely buy news / talk, but they get a price that is only
for the 25-54 component, and meets the CPP goals. It does not matter that
there may be more 55+... they just want to come in at a price they set for
the demo.

I was the ONLY one who had ever been in the store. And when I talked to
Gary Benson, who was building the franchise, I was the only one who
understand what it was he was trying to build. Because I'd been there. And
all the figures, all the hundreds of thousands of dollars spent on demos,
including having the London Symphony record a jingle, meant nothing. I'd
demonstrated that I could produce the result he was looking for.

That was a fortunate and unusual occurance. Most agency business comes from
out of town agencies, visited by the station reps. occasionally, the station
GSM or GM will go on calls in each market, but generally they meet with the
media director at the highest level. The media director has very little demo
changing power.

In a similar, and related, context, if a spot isn't producing results
with 55+, change the pitch. You CAN sell to higher demos. And I understand
that lower demos are easier, and less costly to assault. But the higher
demos have more ready cash, and they do spend it. Convincing them may
require a different effort. May require more of it....but if once you
break through, you've tapped into a gold mine. Getting over that hump may
require more effort, but once tapped, that reserve of cash comes with new
loyalties, and new willingness to do business.

Again, agency accounts (the clients) have done cost of sale evaluations and
the main reason they don't buy is the conversion cost. THis is why 18-34 is
so important. This is why our group is so excited about being the number one
TV net 18-34 in the last Nielsens... that is where the money is... where
brand preferences are formed.

I understand you can't sell 55+ the way you sell 18-34. I'm not
disuputing that at all. So you don't. But you don't just give up. We buy.
Often the same things. But more often than not, bigger ticket items. You
change the pitch. You find a way to sell us that does work. If you're
unwilling to do that, we'll take our money and spend it with someone who
will. But with an aging population, and declining birth rates, it's
something you may wish to consider.

As I said, in my case it does little good. I've been talking in
generalizations for all stationns in all markets, mostly. But for Hispanic,
18-34 and 18-49 are THE demos as this sector is not ageing and, in fact, has
only small population numbers in the over 50 demos.... not enough for a
dedicated 40+ radio station to get any kind of salable numbers.

I understand exactly what you're saying. But my own experience,
again, says that there are ways of getting beyond that wall. Sometimes
it's a matter of building a relationship with someone at the rep firm.
Sometimes, it's a matter of something so absurd that it gets attention.

Absurd works. Years ago, a major textile company had a sign in the
President's office: "It it's about advertising, I am not in." I went to a
hardware store and bought one of those mini doors that lock companies use to
show off knobs and locks. I had "what does it take to open your door" and
our group logo stenciled on it, and sent it by messenger. The next day, I
got a call, an appointment and a sale.

The real issue is that access to clients is dangerous... many agencies view
it as betrayal, and it costs you. And so many clients are in cities you can
not afford to travel to all the time.
I disagree, here, David. I've been involved. I've seen it done. I"ve
helped do it. And not only in Chicago.

It's not easy. And not every effort is successful. But it can be
done. And it's done every day.

Nice if you are in a city where many clients are also located. But
impractical... the real solution is to have groups like the RAB or an ad hoc
group of stations catering to 50 and over do a conserted effort. Most
agencies will not look at one ageing station in one market. Those stations,
particularly oldies, news talk, etc., should do this. But I see no evidence
that they ever do.

Once again, research is a snapshot of conditions as they exist
pertinent to an array of assumptions. Assumptions that are scientifically
arrived at, perhaps, but assumptions nonetheless. And assumptions take on
an axiomatic inviolability that is accepted as law within the context of
research. However, these assumptions are based on an average of
characteristics applied to individuals, and narrowed statistically,
ignoring wider, and broader variations in human behaviour, tastes,
beliefs, politics and understanding...and a hundred others.

Research today is often based on actual observance of families, in the home,
like reality shows. Qustions are asked at the end about why certain things
were done, such as purchases, menu decisions, etc. It is very in depth and
very expensive. But when companies combine this data with sales data, they
spot the correlations and that is how they develop marketing plans for many
consumer products.

It's a pretty specific and scientifically arrived at snapshot. But
it's only a snapshot. And like photographs in Life, it's only a picture of
a moment. A product of a myriad of influences that are not seen, and are
not measured in favor of the more easily arrived at characteristics.

The in-homes overcome most of these objections.

Take an example. AM talk formats experience a younger demo
ratings spike after moving to FM. The assumption is that they're listening
now because of the improved audio quality. Which may be true. Which is
likely true. But it's not the only reason.

The new format may be where there was an older, less successful
station, but with some credible ratings. Suddenly there's a new station
there.

In most cases we are looking at, it's the same station moved to FM... like
KTAR in Phoenix or the KSL situation in SLC or WTOP in DC... or small
markets like WNLS in Talahassee. First book, the 35-54 show up. Neever had
them before, and then they stay. No format change, no competitive influence.

FM is acceptable, FM sounds better. AM does not meet those criteria.

You talk about being Oldsmobiled? Who listens to AM? The same
people who didn't buy an Alero, even though it was a cleaner, more stylsh
line, with better performance and more comprehensive features.

But it was an Olds. The brand had an image of being "the last car you will
ever buy." It was one step away from a hearse. But the Olds was a good car,
as good as many American cars. AM sounds crappy, and did way before NRSC and
such. Whether we blame the receiver manufacturers or the change to FM does
not matter. When the same listeners like the same programming on FM, but
shun it on AM, it means the band is old, decrepit and it sounds bad.

Research infers that younger demos will listen to AM if the audio
were clearer. Perhaps. But will they sample it? Honestly sample it?
Probably not. "Why" is individually determined, and out of the reach of
the research snapshot. But the ones who will not listen to AM now, will
not listen, simply because you improve the audio (debatable given IBOC
performance I've experienced). It's their father's radio. It's unhip. It's
bad sound. Whatever the reason, there's nothing that will get them to
sample AM.

This is the hope of some that promote HD for AM. It is a last-ditch
effort.... I encourage it, because all HD radios will have AM as well and
there is a chance that some decent signal AMs may slow down the erosion.

The point is not about income, etc. The point is that to create a change
in brand preference costs too much and makes the sale undesirable.

Actually, 55+ includes, mostly, retired people. And that is where you see
the scary figures on how many people live only on social security, and about
a million have moved to Mexico because they can not afford to live in the
US. Look at income figures overall for 55+ and only a small percentage have
any significant savings. And most have very little discretionary income.

Radio stations pitch clients every day. Every day. That's what
the Sales staff is for. If a station ONLY accepts agency buys, you
telling me you have no Sales staff.

Direct sellers pitch the client. But most direct money is at lower rastes
and with higher maintenance. Agency accounts are serviced more than they are
sold. But the money is worth it.

I had three sellers for the top billing station in market #13. We tried
direct sales, but we got mostly no pay and slow pay and low rates. The
clients with money went to agencies. We led the market in revenues and power
ratio, because we did not spend on lost causes.

There is no money in 55+. No single radio station, and no group can
change a client's attitude if the client is going to say, "I can not get
a decent ROI on that demo" or "my product was designed for 18-34 year
olds and I hope we don't get Oldsmobiled."


That's where your superiour knowledge and experience comes in.
Accepting 'can't' because someone waving a check has said it, isn't
Leadership. It isn't even Management.

Nothing is 'can't.' There are always possibilities. It's your
job as Manglement and Sales to make that pitch. Accepting the snapshot
only guarantees that you'll live within the confines of the snapshot. The
future is finding what's outside the frame.

Again, this is for someone else to do. We don't have a 55+ population to
serve, and the average age of our sector is in the mid to low 20's. So we
have to deal with getting 18-24 on the general market agency buys, because
we have no 55+ to offer.


Stan Freberg demonstrated three decades ago that you can sell
anything on radio. It's the most visual of electronic media.

I think that is true Urban Legend. Appetite appeal is so critical to come
campaigns that radio, if use, supports recall at POP, not sales.

Mel Karmazin said, and repeatedly, I might add, that revenues
are commonly linked to ratings. They're not. A station can always
outperform it's ratings. Always. And it does so through high expectations,
and retaining control of it's inventory, And by believing in possibilities
instead of obstacles.

Stations that outperform give a specific desirable demo with little
spillage, like all sports. They get the power ratios that are close to 1:1.
CHR gets 0.7 or 0.8 to one because advertisers don't want the teens. And so
on.


Again, perceptions. If you accept them, they become what you
believe to be realities. They do not become realities themselves. If
you're not succeeding at selling this, then change you pitch.

I am pretty sure that in 15 years, WDUV has tried every technique
immaginable. None have worked so far.