HD radio won't just go away.
 

In article ,
craigm wrote:

Telamon wrote:

In article ,
craigm wrote:

Can you explain "backhaul is still via telephone modem"?

You make requests or upload files / data over the phone line. The
download path to you is the satellite dish. If you are surfing the net
your requests and upstream data are small and the downloads such as
movie trailers, video, and streaming media are high bit rate.


... and ...

SFTV_troy wrote:


Computers operate in two directions during internet access. Typically
the phone line or DSL or cable line flows both down & up across the
same wire, but not satellite:

DOWN - from the satellite
UP - via the phone line

So the down channel is broadband, while the up channel is narrowband.
The thing Brenda forgot is that virtually all of these AM websites are
optimized for phone line usage. I don't need broadband to DX to
California or the UK or Australia via my 56K modem.


Well, Wildblue and Hughesnet are the two major providers of satellite access
in the US and they both use two way satellite connections. They do not use
the phone.

Both offer higher upload speeds than a conventional phone line can provide.

Makes one wonder what else you don't understand.

The systems I looked at a few years ago worked as I described. If you
can now get up link and down link satellite then the up link bit rates
can improve. Ping times will still be larger compared to DSL due to the
propagation time to from the 22K miles away bird.

--
Telamon
Ventura, California

HD radio won't just go away.
 

In article ,
"David Eduardo" wrote:

"Telamon" wrote in message
news:telamon_spamshield-
If KOH is not coming in well I don't listen. I try again the next night
and if reception is good, and it usually is, then I stay tuned in.
That's going to happen a lot less now that I have HD hiss in the
background all the time. Now I'll be listening to KOH very infrequently
to never because I'm not going to listen to that bacon frying sound in
the background. It's very annoying.


And KROW could care less. They get most of their revenue 6 AM to 7 PM in the
groudnwave coverage area around Reno. They get no benefit from you or even
10,000 like you in Ventura County, CA.

What's more important here is I don't care that a faker doesn't care.

--
Telamon
Ventura, California

HD radio won't just go away.
 

"Telamon" wrote in message
...

Try driving it again. Ocean on one side and high cliffs on the other
such that FM is pretty much dead. You will not pick up anything from the
LA area just a few stations from up or down the coast.

The LA stations are not licensed to serve the coast up above Ventura
County.... that is waaaaaaaaaaaaay outside their protected contour, and what
is supposed to be heard are the local stations in each place.

Must be a magic
radio in your car or you have never driven that road. Every post you
make, makes you look less real to me.

I certainly have never been fool enough to try to hear LA stations up
towards Santa Barbara. The former KRUZ, now KVYB, has a great signal along
there from around Camarillo up to SLo, for example. In fact, that station
gets good ratings in 5 different markets, from Oxnard to Santa Barbara to
SLO to Santa Maria and Bakersfield.

HD radio won't just go away.
 

"Telamon" wrote in message
...
In article ,
"David Eduardo" wrote:

"Telamon" wrote in message
...

So the reality is you don't know but are guessing based on manufactured
statistics or stuff you read on the Internet. However, although you do
not have direct knowledge you feel free to tell me what I can receive
well or not. What a crock.

1. Arbitron data is not manufactured, and if you combine a year of
surveys,
and read the data in MapMaker, you can easily do a "fuzzy line" plot of
where a station has useful coverage. It's funny that it tends to match
the
10 mvm contour nicely.

2. I do not get any data on the internet. Before we could process the
data
in Maximiser, we had to plot every diary against a map of ZIPs at
Arbitrons's HQ in Maryland. Ask the Arbitron folks who was there most
often
to do that?

3. I have no interest in what you receive. I have an interest in what
people
can listen to, so I made sure I knew what a listenable signal was, first.

More importantly you have no interest in reality.

reality is what the broad based public does. What you individually do is
irrelevant.

HD radio won't just go away.
 

In article ,
"David Eduardo" wrote:

"Telamon" wrote in message
...


The LA stations are not licensed to serve the coast up above Ventura
County.... that is waaaaaaaaaaaaay outside their protected contour, and
what
is supposed to be heard are the local stations in each place.

The cliffs along route 1 are mostly in LA county. I see you don't live
around here after all or you would know this.

You did not specify. The road runs up the entire coast, and the cliffs
around the central coast or Big Sur seem more impressivde.

Must be a magic radio in your car or you have never driven that
road. Every post you make, makes you look less real to me.

I certainly have never been fool enough to try to hear LA stations up
towards Santa Barbara. The former KRUZ, now KVYB, has a great signal
along there from around Camarillo up to SLo, for example. In fact,
that station gets good ratings in 5 different markets, from Oxnard to
Santa Barbara to SLO to Santa Maria and Bakersfield.

I wrote route 1, not route 101 as soon as you leave Santa Monica. You
are not on the same map.

The 101 and the 1 are the same with a dual designation in areas, and
separate in others. You obviously have never looked at a road map.

OK, now that you know where of I speak please comment on the FM
reception of route 1 just north of Santa Monica.

--
Telamon
Ventura, California

HD radio won't just go away.
 

"Telamon" wrote in message
news:telamon_spamshield-
OK, now that you know where of I speak please comment on the FM
reception of route 1 just north of Santa Monica.


It's a good place to have an internet connection. Actually, the FM reception
from Wilson up to about halfway through Malibu is OK; I was in a Canyon off
PCH in the Palisades for a while and all the stations I was interested in
came in fine until in the total shadow of the Santa Monicas up to Point
Magoo, where reception was spotty. Fortunately, not many people live there.

HD radio won't just go away.
 

In article ,
"David Eduardo" wrote:

"Telamon" wrote in message
...


The LA stations are not licensed to serve the coast up above
Ventura County.... that is waaaaaaaaaaaaay outside their protected
contour, and what is supposed to be heard are the local stations
in each place.

The cliffs along route 1 are mostly in LA county. I see you don't
live around here after all or you would know this.

You did not specify. The road runs up the entire coast, and the
cliffs around the central coast or Big Sur seem more impressivde.

Must be a magic radio in your car or you have never driven that
road. Every post you make, makes you look less real to me.

I certainly have never been fool enough to try to hear LA stations
up towards Santa Barbara.

Snip

Why, foolhardy you say? You bet!

Ah, yes the risk would be great to try for an LA station around Santa
Barbara. You could lose your life on such an attempt if you failed.
Imagine... there you are in the middle lane of route 101 in Santa
Barbara your brow furrowed in the intense concentration required to get
that DX before... before that semi barreling down on you makes
connection... sweating profusely working the controls of the radio
with the multi-ton rig of death bearing down on you... horn blaring the
driver can't stop in time... this is it... the last seconds of your
life ticking away as you try for that station ID... time seems to go
into slow motion as you work the controls of the radio... and... AND...
THERE YOU GOT IT... and in those last few seconds you leap for the
shoulder of the highway... the rig screeeems past, barely missing you,
the driver shaking his fist at you, the horn blaring away. Suddenly,
it's over, you made it... or is it?

Lying there in a crumpled mess of ice plant by the side of the highway
the radio just a few feet from your head where it landed your attention
turns toward it again. In your current state of shock from barely
avoiding the rig of death the surreal voice emanating from the radio is
babbling about some guy trying to commit suicide on the 101. Before
those words can even sink into your thick skull, you notice a siren in
the distance. Listening intently now... you notice it's not one but
maybe two... they are getting closer now... but you are content to just
lie there savoring in the moment that you are still alive and all that
it entails... including that nice DX catch you just made!

Next thing you know a CHP cruiser screeches to a halt a few feet from
you, a white ambulance just behind it. Standing up now your head swirls
as the officer is reading your rights and the nice men in the white
coats slip you into a new jacket that they explain will prevent you
from further hurting yourself. Protesting you try to explain that you
were just trying for a FM DX catch from LA but they don't believe you.
"Nobody listens to an LA FM station in Santa Barbara they say" and they
laugh and laugh at the notion coming from the crazy guy wandering on
the 101, so intent on operating the radio controls he wanders into
freeway traffic.

To be continued... Next up Eduardo discovers a new reality aided by
psychotropic drugs.

Don't Worry Eduardo. I promise to visit you at the funny farm.

--
Telamon
Ventura, California

HD radio won't just go away.
 

In article ,
"David Eduardo" wrote:

"Telamon" wrote in message
news:telamon_spamshield-
OK, now that you know where of I speak please comment on the FM
reception of route 1 just north of Santa Monica.


It's a good place to have an internet connection. Actually, the FM reception
from Wilson up to about halfway through Malibu is OK; I was in a Canyon off
PCH in the Palisades for a while and all the stations I was interested in
came in fine until in the total shadow of the Santa Monicas up to Point
Magoo, where reception was spotty. Fortunately, not many people live there.

How many people do you think drive on that road to and from work?

--
Telamon
Ventura, California

HD radio won't just go away.
 

"David Eduardo" wrote in message
t...

You still do not get the difference between hearable and listenable.


No, I believe the issue is that YOU don't seem to understand that there are
clear, listenable signals beyond your precious 10mV/m contours. Perhaps the
issue is that once you get outside of those contours, there are fewer
people, fewer homes, fewer sources of interference, and therefore, clearer
reception. Please do not tell people what is listenable, because YOU DO NOT
KNOW! PERIOD! Until you go to someone's home or office, and actually LISTEN
to what they are listening to, you are in no position whatsoever to tell
them what they can and cannot listen to. Even then, it becomes a subjective
matter. As it stands, your stats are BS, pure and simple.

HD radio won't just go away.
 

"David Eduardo" wrote in message
...
In each market area, all listening to any radio station is recorded by
listeners as is the instruction in the Arbitron diary. Commercial or
non-commercial, local or not, internet or off air, satellite or
terrestrial. All is recorded and processed. If there is any significant
listening to out of market stations it is recorded.

WRONG. Arbitron does NOT log "ALL LISTENING". They log a small percentage
of listening, and profess to know what all the rest are doing based upon
that. Statistics are crap. They are not, and really can never be, accurate.
They are mathematical sleight of hand. Smoke and mirrors. I doubt there is
any real scientific foundation for them at all, since it's highly unlikely
that anyone did a small sample, then went to six million people and asked
each of them the same questions to verify the numbers.

HD radio won't just go away.
 

"craigm" wrote in message
...
Brenda Ann wrote:


"

Streaming is not DX. Also, where do you think these rural listeners are
going to get broadband internet access that would allow them to listen to
these streams? Ain't gonna happen, because nobody is supplying broadband
outside of cities. (hint: satellite internet doesn't handle streaming
audio for beans, since the backhaul is still via telephone modem, and the
lag doesn't allow for enough FEC... )


Can you explain "backhaul is still via telephone modem"?

Sure.

Downlink is from the bird. You still have to be connected to a phone line
for your uplink (unless you want to pay beuxcoup bux for an uplink
transmitter). Thus, you get good download speeds, but the return path is a
slow 56Kb/s phone modem. This causes long ping times, which causes poor
forward error correction and nasty slow uploads.

HD radio won't just go away.
 

"David Eduardo" wrote in message
...

"Steve" wrote in message
ups.com...
Streaming audio certainly isn't DX, but I fully support Wimax and
internet radio because (1) they're going send HD radio into the
dustbin and (2) they don't destroy a huge swath of spectrum. Perhaps
after Wimax results in the commercial death of HD radio we'll get to
see something truly new and truly interesting pop up on MW.


At that point, there will not be AM... the spectrum will be used for
something important, like radio controlled plastic cars from Radio Shack.

The 1MHz AMBCB spectrum is pretty much useless for anything BUT
broadcasting. The very long wavelengths are not usable for things like
telephones, R/C, etc., which need the short wavelengths and their
corresponding short antennae for portability. It took mid-UHF frequencies to
begin to make cellular phones viable.

HD radio won't just go away.
 

"SFTV_troy" wrote in message
ups.com...

Steve wrote:

Streaming audio certainly isn't DX, but I fully support Wimax and
internet radio because (1) they're going send HD radio into the
dustbin and (2) they don't destroy a huge swath of spectrum.


It doesn't? According to wikipedia, the EU has set-aside 300
megahertz of space! That's a heck of a "huge swatch" of spectrum. 15
times larger than what's allocated to FM, and 300 times larger than
the AM allocation.

I call that huge.


300 MHz isn't beans at 2.4 GHz (or higher). It's also not a lot when you
consider that the bandwidth will be used by thousands or more users. Once
you break it down into individual slices of bandwidth for each of those
users, it doesn't really allow for much. Wireless N for your home network
passes up to 200Mb/s.. you don't think that takes a lot of bandwidth?

Cell phone systems use large swaths of bandwidth, even with coded and time
domain sharing, and they will be taking up even more in the near future.
Some will use frequencies vacated by the upper television channels.

HD radio won't just go away.
 

Telamon wrote:

In article ,
craigm wrote:


Brenda Ann wrote:


"

Streaming is not DX. Also, where do you think these rural listeners are
going to get broadband internet access that would allow them to listen to
these streams? Ain't gonna happen, because nobody is supplying broadband
outside of cities. (hint: satellite internet doesn't handle streaming
audio for beans, since the backhaul is still via telephone modem, and the
lag doesn't allow for enough FEC... )


Can you explain "backhaul is still via telephone modem"?


You make requests or upload files / data over the phone line. The
download path to you is the satellite dish. If you are surfing the net
your requests and upstream data are small and the downloads such as
movie trailers, video, and streaming media are high bit rate.


Not anymore-

http://www.elitesat.com/

HD radio won't just go away.
 

David Eduardo wrote:

"Telamon" wrote in message
...


The LA stations are not licensed to serve the coast up above Ventura
County.... that is waaaaaaaaaaaaay outside their protected contour, and
what
is supposed to be heard are the local stations in each place.

The cliffs along route 1 are mostly in LA county. I see you don't live
around here after all or you would know this.

You did not specify. The road runs up the entire coast, and the cliffs
around the central coast or Big Sur seem more impressivde.

Must be a magic radio in your car or you have never driven that
road. Every post you make, makes you look less real to me.

I certainly have never been fool enough to try to hear LA stations up
towards Santa Barbara. The former KRUZ, now KVYB, has a great signal
along there from around Camarillo up to SLo, for example. In fact,
that station gets good ratings in 5 different markets, from Oxnard to
Santa Barbara to SLO to Santa Maria and Bakersfield.

I wrote route 1, not route 101 as soon as you leave Santa Monica. You
are not on the same map.

The 101 and the 1 are the same with a dual designation in areas, and
separate in others. You obviously have never looked at a road map.

You obviously never sought help for your problem(s).

HD radio won't just go away.
 

Brenda Ann wrote:
"David Eduardo" wrote in message
...
In each market area, all listening to any radio station is recorded by
listeners as is the instruction in the Arbitron diary. Commercial or
non-commercial, local or not, internet or off air, satellite or
terrestrial. All is recorded and processed. If there is any significant
listening to out of market stations it is recorded.

WRONG. Arbitron does NOT log "ALL LISTENING". They log a small
percentage of listening, and profess to know what all the rest are doing


Yes. Same way that TV Nielsen Ratings work. Statistics science has
shown you don't need to record everybody..... you can record a small
sample & still get an accurate result of how the group as a whole
thinks.

While it's true such a process won't record any amount below ~0.1
percent of the group, let's face it.... nobody cares about such small
tiny insignificant numbers.

HD radio won't just go away.
 

Brenda Ann wrote:

No, I believe the issue is that YOU don't seem to understand that there are
clear, listenable signals beyond your precious 10mV/m contours.

Dear Grandma (and grandpa):

Stop fiddling with your tube amplifier, and listen to the radio on the
internet. (Yes you can even do it through a 56K dialup modem.)

World War II is over; come into the 21 century.

HD radio won't just go away.
 

Steve wrote:
On Sep 30, 11:35 am, SFTV_troy wrote:

There's no need. The internet and tradional broadcast radio/tv can
coexist.

Internet radio will eliminate the need for outdated
modes of broadcasting. You can't fight progress.


You can't fight consumer desire either. Just because YOU think
internet transmission is better doesn't mean the People will agree.
Look at the colossal failure called WebTV ("bring internet to your
set"). Consumers ignored it.

HD radio won't just go away.
 

RHF wrote:
On Sep 30, 9:53 am, SFTV_troy wrote:
RHF wrote:
On Sep 29, 3:31 pm, SFTV_troy wrote:


Do you understand the consequences of what
you propose? Apparently you do not.

- No, because I can not read your mind.
- Please explain the consequences.

- - That's An Evasive Answer - Please Answer The Question.

- Ahhh, you're taking the "arrogant position"
- where you presume, "Troy is a ****ing idiot"
- and "I'm smarter than Troy", therefore "I'll talk
- down to him like he's a worthless worm."

"That's An Evasive Answer - Please Answer The Question."
Is a Straight In-Your-Face Statement
{ One-to-One / Eyeball-to-Eyeball }


I don't want you "in my face". You're invading my personal space.
Step back, and calm down, and talk like a CNN reporter, not a guy at
the football arena (stop capitalizing everything; stop yelling).


- How rude and unfriendly.

It is Rude and Unfriendly to Ask you to actually
Listen to the AM/MW Radio Band and the very
Negative Effect that IBOC has had on It :


I've heard it. I don't care, because it doesn't affect the local
stations I am listening to. I don't care, because when I want to do
distant listening, I am not stuck back in World War 2. I am in the
21st century and use the internet.



Listening 'On-Line' is not Free Over-the-Air Radio

Yes it is. Just as watching NBC or FOX on your cable is still free
over-the-air television. They are still sending out their waves to
their local markets.

HD radio won't just go away.
 

On Sep 30, 7:26 pm, Telamon
wrote:
In article . com,

SFTV_troy wrote:
RHF wrote:

I want to see FM upgraded with three to four times more programs to
choose from.

SFTV_troy are you on d'Eduardo's Pay Roll ?
-or- Work for any of the Companies that Employ Him ?
-or- Work for a Radio Station using his Programming ?

Nope. I'm an electrical engineer who designs computer boards and
circuits.

I'd expect an electrical engineer to be more knowledgeable than your
posts indicate.



If you think one person can possibly know EVERYTHING there is to know
about the subject of electronics/electrical devices. For example:

- Do you know what VHDL is?
- How about a state machine?
- Synchronous DDR?
- PCI Express?
- Flip-flop?
- What does GCLK mean in the context of FPGAs?
- What are constraints?

This is just a small sample of what I know, because this is what I
work upon every day..... but I suspect a lot of it you have no clue
what it's about. And that's fine. Because I don't expect one person
to know everything there is to know about EE.

HD radio won't just go away.
 

Steve wrote:
On Sep 29, 11:57 pm, "David Eduardo" wrote:
"David" wrote in message

...



Anybody who listens to AM radio at night around here is likely DXing.

I just ran a multi-book report on your area, called LA / NNE, and found that
less than 10% of all radio listening by 18-54 year olds is to AM. #1 and #2
stations are KLVE and KIIS, both Wilson FMs.

Did you do this after you "graduated" from college?

When did you learn to be such a poorly-mannered ass?

HD radio won't just go away.
 

RHF wrote:
On Sep 29, 8:48 pm, "David Eduardo" wrote:

d'Eduardo,

Thank You Once Again For Reminding Us
That We Don't Count As Sellable Numbers.
we are just plain old radio listeners



Yes and the sooner you realize that, the happier you will be. You
shouldn't expect the FCC or the National Association of Broadcasters
to care about a hobby (distant AM listening) that only represents less
than 0.01% of the audience.

HD radio won't just go away.
 

David wrote:
On Sun, 30 Sep 2007 17:07:19 GMT, "David Eduardo"
wrote:

Oink!


Actually Eduardo wrote a very intelligent, very informative post.

YOU are just too stupid to understand it.

HD radio won't just go away.
 

Brenda Ann wrote:
"
Do you think that those kids listening to a ball game from a
distant station when they should have been sleeping know or care about DX
clubs? Or the trucker tuning across the dial to find something worth
listening to ....


Kids today use their computers to listen to distant stations, not
radio.

Truckers use XM or Sirius, not terrestrial broadcast.

You are living in the past, but everybody else has moved into the
future with Broadband internet, and Satellite. Time to wake-up and
smell the truth.

HD radio won't just go away.
 

Steve wrote:
On Sep 29, 11:28 pm, "David Eduardo" wrote:

Most truckers have Satellite now... an excellent solution for drivers who
move from market to market, too.

How's that GPA holding up?


Hey old man, did you pick out your coffin yet? Are you going for
metal or wood?

HD radio won't just go away.
 

craigm wrote:
SFTV_troy wrote:

DOWN - from the satellite
UP - via the phone line
So the down channel is broadband, while the up channel is narrowband.

Well, Wildblue and Hughesnet are the two major providers of satellite access
in the US and they both use two way satellite connections. They do not use
the phone. Both offer higher upload speeds than a conventional phone.

Makes one wonder what else you don't understand.


(1) Don't be rude & insulting.

(2) I looked-up two-way satellite communication on wikipedia before I
posted, but it said the upstream is limited to only 2.4 kbit/s.
That's a LOT slower than a 56k phone line connection.

(3) If wikipedia is wrong, please provide a citation so I can update
it. Back-up your "higher upload speeds" claim.

HD radio won't just go away.
 

Brenda Ann wrote:
"SFTV_troy" wrote in message
Steve wrote:

Streaming audio certainly isn't DX, but I fully support Wimax and
internet radio because (1) they're going send HD radio into the
dustbin and (2) they don't destroy a huge swath of spectrum.

It doesn't? According to wikipedia, the EU has set-aside 300
megahertz of space! That's a heck of a "huge swatch" of spectrum.
15 times larger than what's allocated to FM, and 300 times
larger than the AM allocation. I call that huge.


300 MHz isn't beans at 2.4 GHz (or higher). It's also not a lot when you
consider that the bandwidth will be used by thousands or more users. Once
you break it down into individual slices of bandwidth for each of those
users, it doesn't really allow for much. Wireless N for your home network
passes up to 200Mb/s..

you don't think that takes a lot of bandwidth?


Uh. Yes. Which is why I was rebutting the comment "Wimax doesn't
destroy a huge swath of spectrum."

HD radio won't just go away.
 

SFTV_troy wrote:


craigm wrote:
SFTV_troy wrote:

DOWN - from the satellite
UP - via the phone line
So the down channel is broadband, while the up channel is narrowband.

Well, Wildblue and Hughesnet are the two major providers of satellite
access in the US and they both use two way satellite connections. They do
not use the phone. Both offer higher upload speeds than a conventional
phone.

Makes one wonder what else you don't understand.


(1) Don't be rude & insulting.

Your posts show you don't have experience with what you are talking about.
If you don't like that being pointed out, too bad.


(2) I looked-up two-way satellite communication on wikipedia before I
posted, but it said the upstream is limited to only 2.4 kbit/s.
That's a LOT slower than a 56k phone line connection.


(3) If wikipedia is wrong, please provide a citation so I can update
it. Back-up your "higher upload speeds" claim.


Go to the Wildblue or Hughesnet web sites. You'll find they offer 128kbit or
higher upload rates.

HD radio won't just go away.
 

Brenda Ann wrote:


"craigm" wrote in message
...
Brenda Ann wrote:


"

Streaming is not DX. Also, where do you think these rural listeners are
going to get broadband internet access that would allow them to listen
to these streams? Ain't gonna happen, because nobody is supplying
broadband outside of cities. (hint: satellite internet doesn't handle
streaming audio for beans, since the backhaul is still via telephone
modem, and the lag doesn't allow for enough FEC... )


Can you explain "backhaul is still via telephone modem"?

Sure.

Downlink is from the bird. You still have to be connected to a phone line
for your uplink (unless you want to pay beuxcoup bux for an uplink
transmitter). Thus, you get good download speeds, but the return path is
a slow 56Kb/s phone modem. This causes long ping times, which causes poor
forward error correction and nasty slow uploads.


Since the two primary providers of satellite internet service in the US do
not use phone lines for the uplink, all of their customers must be paying
the big bucks. (While their service isn't cheap, they have no phone uplink
option.)

Actually using a phone line would reduce the latency issues relative to a
satellite uplink.

This is another area where you don't know what you are talking about.

HD radio won't just go away.
 

HD radio won't just go away.
 

"Telamon" wrote in message
...
In article ,
"David Eduardo" wrote:

"Telamon" wrote in message
news:telamon_spamshield-
OK, now that you know where of I speak please comment on the FM
reception of route 1 just north of Santa Monica.


It's a good place to have an internet connection. Actually, the FM
reception
from Wilson up to about halfway through Malibu is OK; I was in a Canyon
off
PCH in the Palisades for a while and all the stations I was interested in
came in fine until in the total shadow of the Santa Monicas up to Point
Magoo, where reception was spotty. Fortunately, not many people live
there.

How many people do you think drive on that road to and from work?

Very few commute from LA County to Ventura, so it would not affect LA
ratings; the percentage of Ventura County residents is also probably so low
as to be statistically insignificant. My guess is that, given the amount of
time in the shadow of the mountains vs. total time used with radio by the
average listener is that this has no impact at all on either the LA book or
the Ventura County one.

HD radio won't just go away.
 

"Brenda Ann" wrote in message
...

"David Eduardo" wrote in message
t...

You still do not get the difference between hearable and listenable.


No, I believe the issue is that YOU don't seem to understand that there
are clear, listenable signals beyond your precious 10mV/m contours.
Perhaps the issue is that once you get outside of those contours, there
are fewer people, fewer homes, fewer sources of interference, and
therefore, clearer reception.

Yes, this is true.. interference is lower outside the metros, so less strong
signals are usable. The real thing is that 60% of the US populaiton is in
the top 50 metros, and by the time you get to the 300th rated market, you
have coverage of over 85% of the US. Most of these areas haved high noise
levels caused by electric lines, computers, etc., that did not exist a few
decades ago (in the case of line noise, electric companies actually cared in
the past, now they laugh at interference complaints).


Please do not tell people what is listenable, because YOU DO NOT KNOW!
PERIOD! Until you go to someone's home or office, and actually LISTEN to
what they are listening to, you are in no position whatsoever to tell them
what they can and cannot listen to. Even then, it becomes a subjective
matter. As it stands, your stats are BS, pure and simple.

The data I have shows what, in the home and at work (Arbitron provides ZIP
data for each) people listen to, and by elimination, what they don't listen
to. The fact is, they do not listen to lesser signals. We have the data,
compiled from review of what amounts to millions of listening incidents over
more than a decade and the software to map the listening. The listening is
concentrated within very tight contours.

HD radio won't just go away.
 

"Brenda Ann" wrote in message
...

"David Eduardo" wrote in message
...
In each market area, all listening to any radio station is recorded by
listeners as is the instruction in the Arbitron diary. Commercial or
non-commercial, local or not, internet or off air, satellite or
terrestrial. All is recorded and processed. If there is any significant
listening to out of market stations it is recorded.



WRONG. Arbitron does NOT log "ALL LISTENING". They log a small percentage
of listening, and profess to know what all the rest are doing based upon
that.

You know what I meant: the Arbiytron diarykeeper logs all listening and all
that listening is processed.

Statistics are crap. They are not, and really can never be, accurate.

They are accurate within a margin of error that is easily calculated, and is
small enough for advertisers to spend $21 billion on radio this year.

Statistics is a science, and it has the unique quality that "error" is not a
dirty word. Speaking of samples, when you last had a blood test, did they
take all your blood, or just a small percentage? They took a sample, as they
know that it would faithfully represent all the rest of your blood. This is
exactly what a good poll does; a good sample can be tested, as Arbitron has
done, by a replication study where the same thing is done twice to see if
the reuslts are the same... and they are.

They are mathematical sleight of hand. Smoke and mirrors. I doubt there is
any real scientific foundation for them at all, since it's highly unlikely
that anyone did a small sample, then went to six million people and asked
each of them the same questions to verify the numbers.

That is not how you test a poll. It is done by a replication study. You do a
sample, then repeat it. If you get identical results, the sample size and
procedure is valid.

HD radio won't just go away.
 

On Oct 1, 2:48 am, wrote:
Brenda Ann wrote:
"David Eduardo" wrote in message
t...
In each market area, all listening to any radio station is recorded by
listeners as is the instruction in the Arbitron diary. Commercial or
non-commercial, local or not, internet or off air, satellite or
terrestrial. All is recorded and processed. If there is any significant
listening to out of market stations it is recorded.

WRONG. Arbitron does NOT log "ALL LISTENING". They log a small
percentage of listening, and profess to know what all the rest are doing

Yes. Same way that TV Nielsen Ratings work. Statistics science has
shown you don't need to record everybody..... you can record a small
sample & still get an accurate result of how the group as a whole
thinks.


- While it's true such a process won't record any amount below
- ~0.1 percent of the group, let's face it.... nobody cares about
- such small tiny insignificant numbers.

SFTV,

IMHO - The majority of the people who read and post here
are in that Group of People (DXers) that you just said (wrote)
"nobody cares about such small tiny insignificant numbers."

Are You Related To d'Eduardo ?

Individual People are Human Beings - Not Quantifiable Numbers.

'feeling' so tiny and insignificant right now ~ RHF

HD radio won't just go away.
 

On Oct 1, 2:52 am, wrote:
Brenda Ann wrote:

No, I believe the issue is that YOU don't seem to understand that there are
clear, listenable signals beyond your precious 10mV/m contours.

- Dear Grandma (and grandpa):
-
- Stop fiddling with your tube amplifier, and listen to the radio on
the
- internet. (Yes you can even do it through a 56K dialup modem.)
-
- World War II is over; come into the 21 century.

sftv - and you call other people 'arrogant' ~ rhf

HD radio won't just go away.
 

"RHF" wrote in message
ups.com...
On Oct 1, 2:48 am, wrote:
Brenda Ann wrote:
"David Eduardo" wrote in message
t...
In each market area, all listening to any radio station is recorded
by
listeners as is the instruction in the Arbitron diary. Commercial or
non-commercial, local or not, internet or off air, satellite or
terrestrial. All is recorded and processed. If there is any
significant
listening to out of market stations it is recorded.

WRONG. Arbitron does NOT log "ALL LISTENING". They log a small
percentage of listening, and profess to know what all the rest are
doing

Yes. Same way that TV Nielsen Ratings work. Statistics science has
shown you don't need to record everybody..... you can record a small
sample & still get an accurate result of how the group as a whole
thinks.


- While it's true such a process won't record any amount below
- ~0.1 percent of the group, let's face it.... nobody cares about
- such small tiny insignificant numbers.

Actually, it records 0.0 shares based on perhaps one diary mention; the data
is there but all it shows is that in a statistical sample, there is next to
nothing for that particular station. 0 times 0 is 0.

HD radio won't just go away.
 

On Oct 1, 10:59 am, "David Eduardo" wrote:
"RHF" wrote in message

ups.com...





On Oct 1, 2:48 am, wrote:
Brenda Ann wrote:
"David Eduardo" wrote in message
t...
In each market area, all listening to any radio station is recorded
by
listeners as is the instruction in the Arbitron diary. Commercial or
non-commercial, local or not, internet or off air, satellite or
terrestrial. All is recorded and processed. If there is any
significant
listening to out of market stations it is recorded.

WRONG. Arbitron does NOT log "ALL LISTENING". They log a small
percentage of listening, and profess to know what all the rest are
doing

Yes. Same way that TV Nielsen Ratings work. Statistics science has
shown you don't need to record everybody..... you can record a small
sample & still get an accurate result of how the group as a whole
thinks.

- While it's true such a process won't record any amount below
- ~0.1 percent of the group, let's face it.... nobody cares about
- such small tiny insignificant numbers.

Actually, it records 0.0 shares based on perhaps one diary mention; the data
is there but all it shows is that in a statistical sample, there is next to
nothing for that particular station. 0 times 0 is 0.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

d'Eduardo,

I 'feel' we are not Communicating on the same level.
{ Using the same set of Personal Values. }

I am not a 'share'.
- - - I don't believe that anyone here considers themselves
to be a 'share'. {except you}

I am not a 'statistical sample'.
- - - I don't believe that anyone here considers themselves
to be a 'statistical sample'. {except you}

I am not a 'number'
- - - I don't believe that anyone here considers themselves
to be a 'number'. {except you}

I AM AN AVID RADIO LISTENER [.] -and- I BELIEVE EVERYONE
HERE IS AN AVID RADIO LISTENER ! {EXCEPT YOU}

The Reality of IBOC Sucks :
AM/MW "HD" Radio is 'by-design' Engineered to Interfer
with the two Adjacent AM/MW Radio Channels at 10 kHz.
http://electronicdesign.com/Files/29.../Figure_02.gif

I Ask Myself : What IBOC ?
All I See Is The Blinking Blue Light ! ~ RHF
In That Distant Land* Where IBOC Fears To Go :
Life Exists and Radio Listeners Live Beyond the 10mv/m Contour.
* Twain Harte, CA -USA-

HD radio won't just go away.
 

In article ,
"David Eduardo" wrote:

"Telamon" wrote in message
...
In article ,
"David Eduardo" wrote:

"Telamon" wrote in message
news:telamon_spamshield-
OK, now that you know where of I speak please comment on the FM
reception of route 1 just north of Santa Monica.


It's a good place to have an internet connection. Actually, the FM
reception
from Wilson up to about halfway through Malibu is OK; I was in a Canyon
off
PCH in the Palisades for a while and all the stations I was interested in
came in fine until in the total shadow of the Santa Monicas up to Point
Magoo, where reception was spotty. Fortunately, not many people live
there.

How many people do you think drive on that road to and from work?

Very few commute from LA County to Ventura, so it would not affect LA
ratings; the percentage of Ventura County residents is also probably so low
as to be statistically insignificant. My guess is that, given the amount of
time in the shadow of the mountains vs. total time used with radio by the
average listener is that this has no impact at all on either the LA book or
the Ventura County one.

Well, it looks like is past time for you to check out rush hour.

--
Telamon
Ventura, California

HD radio won't just go away.
 

In article om,
wrote:

Brenda Ann wrote:
"David Eduardo" wrote in message
...
In each market area, all listening to any radio station is recorded by
listeners as is the instruction in the Arbitron diary. Commercial or
non-commercial, local or not, internet or off air, satellite or
terrestrial. All is recorded and processed. If there is any significant
listening to out of market stations it is recorded.

WRONG. Arbitron does NOT log "ALL LISTENING". They log a small
percentage of listening, and profess to know what all the rest are doing


Yes. Same way that TV Nielsen Ratings work. Statistics science has
shown you don't need to record everybody..... you can record a small
sample & still get an accurate result of how the group as a whole
thinks.

Right, that way you can juggle the numbers to get the result you want.

--
Telamon
Ventura, California

HD radio won't just go away.
 

In article ,
"David Eduardo" wrote:

"Brenda Ann" wrote in message
...

"David Eduardo" wrote in message
...
In each market area, all listening to any radio station is recorded by
listeners as is the instruction in the Arbitron diary. Commercial or
non-commercial, local or not, internet or off air, satellite or
terrestrial. All is recorded and processed. If there is any significant
listening to out of market stations it is recorded.



WRONG. Arbitron does NOT log "ALL LISTENING". They log a small percentage
of listening, and profess to know what all the rest are doing based upon
that.

You know what I meant: the Arbiytron diarykeeper logs all listening and all
that listening is processed.

Statistics are crap. They are not, and really can never be, accurate.

They are accurate within a margin of error that is easily calculated, and is
small enough for advertisers to spend $21 billion on radio this year.

Statistics is a science, and it has the unique quality that "error" is not a
dirty word

Snip

You have that wrong. Can you guess how you are off on a limb?

Give it a shot!

--
Telamon
Ventura, California