ibiquity AM hybrid digital radio provides little consumer benefits
 

"Telamon" wrote in message
...
In article ,
"David Eduardo" wrote:
6 db is not much. Good audio is more like 80 to 100 dB.

Not on the radio, where the ambient noise in most listening locations
does
not permit that degree of dynamic range.

Really? what is permissible then?

Brenda Ann already told you... about 6 db

And you criticize me for using widely accepted and broadly syndicated
Arbitron data used by all significant top 300 market stations in the
US,
but
you have taken on the job of being the standard for modulation all by
your
lonesome.

You are nuts.

As I said, if I am all you accuse me of, then everyone in the radio
industry
and even its suppliers is also nuts. I tend to think that you, the lone
doubter, are the one in need of attention.

Nope, just you. I don't think the industry stands behind you.

No, I stand with the industry, which is a very different condition. I've
been on so many NAB, RAB, NAFMB, AIR, NAB Europe, Billboard, R&R, PRBA and
other panels that I have lost track of them. I would not be there were my
opinions and interpretations not respected and welcome.

ibiquity AM hybrid digital radio provides little consumer benefits
 

"Telamon" wrote in message
...
In article ,
"David Eduardo" wrote:

"Brenda Ann" wrote in message
...


Most people don't even notice it, such is the way of today's music
(most
any format). It's all part of the 'volume wars'. Stations clamoring to
get noticed in a sea of other stations, so they want their signal to be
as
loud as possible.

If anything, processing is less on the average than it was in the 70's
and
80's on FM, or the way it was in the 60's on AM.

The argument is dynamic range and I find your 6 dB figure unbelievable.

That was Brenda Ann's statement, but I agree with her that the range is
limited to about that figure, with a few give and takes. CHR stations may be
a little less, while AC's and such may be a little more, but not much in
either direction.

Eduardo talks about how stations have been using compression for many
decades. This may well be true, but not the vast majority of them.

I don't recall ever seeing a US station without at least a peak limiter
going back to the late 50's. And everywhere I went, I visited stations...
ranging from places like Ludington, MI, to San Francisco.

Fine. I understand the need for limiting. So what.

Limiting is a form of compression since it removes excursions in excess of
the level that would produce 100% modulation (or 100% negative peaks on AM).

Then the Audimax and Volumax came out in the early 60's and we all went
crazy changing the components to get more clipping and greater and faster
AGC. The 80's brought multiband processors from Durrough and Gregg Labs
and
such, and culminated with the Optimod.

Look, I understand that there are limiter and processors but I just
can't believe most stations compress music into a 6 dB range. That's
just not right.


It's what works.

ibiquity AM hybrid digital radio provides little consumer benefits
 

"Telamon" wrote in message
...
In article ,
"David Eduardo" wrote:

I said that the ambient noise from the car itself as well as road noise
are
such that most stereo information is lost or imperceptible in vehicles
and,
thus, not appreciated. In addition, the processing on nearly all stations
reduces the dynamic range, so the stereo effect of different levels from
left and right is eliminated... and that applies to any listening
location.

It's easy to perceive depending on the material. Say a different
instrument comes from left and right at the same volume. Easy to tell
even with road noise.

Part of the perception of dimension comes from dynamic range. Radio so
limits range that the information is lost and the ability to interpret
spatial relationsips is diminished.


I said that there were stations that got the stereo light to shine
without
actually being in stereo. The objective was deceiptful, as what they
wanted
was to make people think that the station was stereo when it wasn't. Most
people never figured that out as they couldn't tell the difference.

How am I supposed to know about most people. You saying most people are
stupid then?

No, most people don't realize there is no stereo separation because the lit
stereo light convinces them it is stereo when it is not.

I don't believe the 60% mono figure. You are not making any sense
at all today.

I really don't care what you believe as you have no data to the
contrary while the radio industry has countless valid surveys.

People don't lie in the surveys? Mistakes are not made? Silly people
like you are not around to misinterpret the data?


My staff does about a hundred thousand interviews a year, all of which I can
monitor. We see no indication of lies, since lying about a station or about
music they like has no gain. QC will avoid mistakes, and a percentage of
reconfirm callbacks can achieve that. As to the interpretation, we've done
better in the ratings than any other major player over the last years, so we
must be doing our research, interpretation and implementation quite well.

ibiquity AM hybrid digital radio provides little consumer benefits
 

"Telamon" wrote in message
...
I said that there were stations that got the stereo light to shine
without
actually being in stereo. The objective was deceiptful, as what they
wanted
was to make people think that the station was stereo when it wasn't. Most
people never figured that out as they couldn't tell the difference.

How am I supposed to know about most people. You saying most people are
stupid then?

I read the same study many years ago, and have no trouble believing it,
since most people I know pay little actual attention to content, but instead
take psychological cues. Psychoacoustics is the main thing that allows for
mp3's to be listenable. It's a fact that the digitalization is so far from
accurate that it's not logically feasible, but the human brain has an
amazing capability to 'fill in the blanks'.

This is also why those 'stereo emulators' work at all... by dividing up the
bandpass between the channels.

AFN AM (except for Seoul and, finally, Osan) broadcasts one channel of a
stereo feed. It sounds like crap to the three people I know here that can
actually tell the difference (two of us are in the same house). Talking to
dozens of GI's, not a one of them even noticed that one channel was missing.
The engineers, until the most recent one, quipped "it's AM, it's only
monaural". The engineers were IDIOTS that had never heard of signal
summing!! That's how little people pay attention to program sources..

ibiquity AM hybrid digital radio provides little consumer benefits
 

"David Eduardo" wrote in message
...

[snip]


No, most people don't realize there is no stereo separation because the
lit
stereo light convinces them it is stereo when it is not.

[snip]

Let's not forget about modern FM car radios. My car's radio blends from
stereo to mono quite seamlessly as signals become less than ideal. If I pay
attention, I'll notice that the reception is in weak stereo or full mono
much of the time. That's preferable because there's practially no distorted
audio, abrupt switches from stereo to mono and picket fencing that come with
full time stereo car radios. All the while, the stereo light never blinks
off.

Frank Dresser

ibiquity AM hybrid digital radio provides little consumer benefits
 

David 'Eduardo' Frackelton Gleason wrote:

"Telamon" wrote in message
...
In article ,
"David Eduardo" wrote:
6 db is not much. Good audio is more like 80 to 100 dB.

Not on the radio, where the ambient noise in most listening locations
does
not permit that degree of dynamic range.

Really? what is permissible then?

Brenda Ann already told you... about 6 db

And you criticize me for using widely accepted and broadly syndicated
Arbitron data used by all significant top 300 market stations in the
US,
but
you have taken on the job of being the standard for modulation all by
your
lonesome.

You are nuts.

As I said, if I am all you accuse me of, then everyone in the radio
industry
and even its suppliers is also nuts. I tend to think that you, the lone
doubter, are the one in need of attention.

Nope, just you. I don't think the industry stands behind you.

No, I stand with the industry, which is a very different condition. I've
been on so many NAB, RAB, NAFMB, AIR, NAB Europe, Billboard, R&R, PRBA and
other panels that I have lost track of them. I would not be there were my
opinions and interpretations not respected and welcome.

They simply may not be aware that you are a faux Hispanic and known pathological
liar!

ibiquity AM hybrid digital radio provides little consumerbenefits
 

On Oct 19, 2:17*am, Telamon
wrote:
Look, I understand that there are limiter and processors but I just
can't believe most stations compress music into a 6 dB range. That's
just not right.


You're both right: FM system dynamic range may be on the order of 70
dB while the occupied dynamic range may be the top 6 dB for 95% of the
time on many stations. The dynamic range between a comfortable
loudness and ambient noise may be as much as 30-35 dB in the average
home or as little as 10-20 dB in an automobile. Stations that process
for the ideal home listening environment will have frustrated
listeners in the car if they carry wide dynamic range content such as
classical music and vice versa.

Tom

ibiquity AM hybrid digital radio provides little consumer benefits
 

In article ,
"David Eduardo" wrote:

"Telamon" wrote in message
...
In article ,
"David Eduardo" wrote:

"Telamon" wrote in message
.
..
In article ,
"David Eduardo" wrote:

OK, I'll give this a shot. You substitute marketing statical bull-crap
for reality. That's where you go wrong.


If that is the case, then an entire industry with over 100,000 employees
is
mistaken.

And you think that is not possible? Look at what just happened in the RE
loan industry. Those people believed and now they are screwed.

Most of that invold the very few people who set policy.

Ha, ha, ha. You are above the fray setting policy. How sociopathic of
you.


The research tools used by broadcasters are no more "bull crap" than a
study
about yields as related to silicon purity in chip fabs.

Obviously, anything you don't agree with is wrong.

Apples and oranges. Studying semiconductor parametrics to determine
yields are a far cry to how from what Arbitron does. You can makeup
anything mixing people and statistics.


The fact is that the Arbitron diary methodology and implementation are
accredited by the Media Research Council, made up mostly of some of the best
statisticians and surveying technologists in the country who work at the
behest of the advertising and agency communities. The purpose is to
guarantee that proper techniques and procedures are used so that the data is
reliable within the ocnstraints of the limits of polling.

Bunch of malarky. Preconceived ideas implemented by one group beholden
to another. That might be your kind of vetting but most would not fall
for it.

--
Telamon
Ventura, California

ibiquity AM hybrid digital radio provides little consumer benefits
 

In article ,
"David Eduardo" wrote:

"Telamon" wrote in message
...
In article ,
"David Eduardo" wrote:
6 db is not much. Good audio is more like 80 to 100 dB.

Not on the radio, where the ambient noise in most listening locations
does
not permit that degree of dynamic range.

Really? what is permissible then?

Brenda Ann already told you... about 6 db

Well, I guess the stations WANT the LISTENER to get FATIGUED listening
to their station so they turn it off then.

And you criticize me for using widely accepted and broadly syndicated
Arbitron data used by all significant top 300 market stations in the
US,
but
you have taken on the job of being the standard for modulation all by
your
lonesome.

You are nuts.

As I said, if I am all you accuse me of, then everyone in the radio
industry
and even its suppliers is also nuts. I tend to think that you, the lone
doubter, are the one in need of attention.

Nope, just you. I don't think the industry stands behind you.

No, I stand with the industry, which is a very different condition. I've
been on so many NAB, RAB, NAFMB, AIR, NAB Europe, Billboard, R&R, PRBA and
other panels that I have lost track of them. I would not be there were my
opinions and interpretations not respected and welcome.

All a blur? You can imagine quite a bit in a short period of time
apparently.

--
Telamon
Ventura, California

ibiquity AM hybrid digital radio provides little consumer benefits
 

In article ,
"David Eduardo" wrote:

"Telamon" wrote in message
...
In article ,
"David Eduardo" wrote:

"Brenda Ann" wrote in message
...


Most people don't even notice it, such is the way of today's music
(most
any format). It's all part of the 'volume wars'. Stations clamoring to
get noticed in a sea of other stations, so they want their signal to be
as
loud as possible.

If anything, processing is less on the average than it was in the 70's
and
80's on FM, or the way it was in the 60's on AM.

The argument is dynamic range and I find your 6 dB figure unbelievable.

That was Brenda Ann's statement, but I agree with her that the range is
limited to about that figure, with a few give and takes. CHR stations may be
a little less, while AC's and such may be a little more, but not much in
either direction.

Eduardo talks about how stations have been using compression for many
decades. This may well be true, but not the vast majority of them.

I don't recall ever seeing a US station without at least a peak limiter
going back to the late 50's. And everywhere I went, I visited stations...
ranging from places like Ludington, MI, to San Francisco.

Fine. I understand the need for limiting. So what.

Limiting is a form of compression since it removes excursions in excess of
the level that would produce 100% modulation (or 100% negative peaks on AM).

Not really. Limiting is a hard stop that is not ever passed. Compression
is an algorithm applied to the program material that attempts to prevent
reaching that max limit but it could go over limit in extreme
circumstances.

Then the Audimax and Volumax came out in the early 60's and we all went
crazy changing the components to get more clipping and greater and faster
AGC. The 80's brought multiband processors from Durrough and Gregg Labs
and
such, and culminated with the Optimod.

Look, I understand that there are limiter and processors but I just
can't believe most stations compress music into a 6 dB range. That's
just not right.


It's what works.

I don't think so. Maybe that's why I can't listen to most FM stations as
you helped pervert the sound.

--
Telamon
Ventura, California