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RHF November 26th 08 10:35 PM

Radio Canada International [RCI-CBC] in French on 17,790 kHz @ 19:00UTC
 
Radio Canada International [RCI-CBC] in French on 17,790 kHz @ 19:00
UTC
FRENCH [FRN] = http://www.rciviva.ca/rci/fr/
ENGLISH [ENG] = http://www.rciviva.ca/rci/en/

David Hartung November 27th 08 11:38 AM

The Separation of Church and State in America Today.,
 
Kurt_Lochner wrote:
David Hartung wrote:
wrote:
David Hartung deleted and then bleated:
wrote:

- - - -
Sorry Hartung, but you get told over and over by
several who answer you----that either you're one of the
most ill-infomed idiots on the usnet, or you're
pretending to be.

NO ONE sits by the 700 club channel recording Robertson
take credit for keeping hurricanes from hitting the SE
seaboard coast----but the PUBLIC RECORD has recorded
it, reported it, and laughed about it

THere isn't a week that goes by that Roberston doesn't
attribute the deviance from HIS interpretation of
dispensationalism to be the cause of "gods wrath" and
THAT gets reported and aired in the media

He attributed the Twin Towers on "gays" and god doing
it because we're not following HIS interpretation of
Scripture

Falwell sends out weekly news letters (now his son does
of course) railing against the god-less Americans and
how THEY'RE bringing the misery and woe onto America

If YOU'RE going to be informed, YOU need to find out
what they're saying and use YOUR powers of intellect
(or lack thereof) to ferret out the bull**** that you
automatically spout as IF it were truth

Dobson is famous for his attribution of fundamentalist
religious nuttery into political ideology----even
forcing Neut Gingrich to include his "3-pt agenda" into
the budgets just prior to the Government shutdown by
republicans

"I" shouldn't have to "cite that, you idiot

Any INFORMED American knows it.
The claim was that Robertson, Falwell and Dobson have claimed that
Republicans have the corner on Christianity.


You are again dishonestly trying to reframe what was said..


From earlier in the thread:
Soumay Nonay wrote:
I've been told the Republican Party has exclusive franchise on Christianity;
it is easier for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle than a
non-Republican to enter the Kingdom of God.

You have yet to provide a single quote to support that claim.
ANd I pointed you to the three top christofascists
operating massive media outlets and you claim you've
never heard of their views.

I am not aware that any of the better known "televangelists" are
"fascists" of any brand.


You must live in a very sheltered environment, David..

Your blind political ignorance is showing again.


You have three fingers again pointed back at yourself..

The other person stated earlier that he had some of Dobson's
semi-private correspondence. To be certain, these types of
religious charlatans have *NO* business becoming involved in
political matters. Crossing that 'line' isn't 'biblical'
in any sense of the word, and the last time a 'religion'
got involved in political affairs, it didn't turn out well..


There have been many times throughout history, where the Christian
Church has gotten in bed with government. What specifically are you
referring to?

Some of this involvement was very good for the Church, in a secular
sense. Spiritually, such involvement was always a disaster.

David Hartung November 27th 08 11:52 AM

The Separation of Church and Statein America Today..
 
Kurt_Lochner wrote:
David Hartung wrote:
wrote:
On Wed, 26 Nov 2008 18:04:32 -0600, David Hartung
wrote:

I don't pay any attention to the gentlemen in question. I have grave
doubts that what they teach is truly the Word of God.
See, that's the point, Hartung

Millions do----and they send tens of millions in
contributions to the *******s who in turn funnel it
into PACs to inject religious belief into law

Dobson has/had enough control over the GOP platform
committee to have had the power to summon Neut Gingrich
and the entire GOP leadership before him and threaten
them with retaliation unless his "agenda" was included
in legislation pending before government.

When, specifically did this happen?


March 18th, 1998..

US News, May 4, 1998
http://www.usnews.com

A Righteous Indignation

James Dobson--psychologist, radio host, family-values crusader -
- is set to topple the political establishment

BY MICHAEL J. GERSON

On March 18, in the basement of the Capitol, 25 House Republicans
met with psychologist James Dobson for some emotional venting. But
this was not personal therapy; it concerned the fate of their party.
Dobson, long on loyal radio listeners and short on patience, was
threatening, in effect, to bring down the GOP unless it made
conservative social issues, including abortion, a higher legislative
priority. "If I go," he has said, "I will do everything I can to
take as many people with me as possible."

In the audience sat some of Dobson's closest ideological allies.
Rep. Steve Largent of Oklahoma, a former star football player,
was a volunteer speaker for Dobson's organization, Focus on the
Family, from 1990 to 1993. He credits this with "sparking my
interest in public policy." Rep. James Talent of Missouri, years
before, had pulled off the highway and prayed along with Dobson
on the radio to become a Christian. "He is the instrument through
which I committed my life to Christ. It is the single most important
thing that has ever or will ever happen to me."

But for over two hours, until nearly midnight, House conservatives
confronted Dobson about his indiscriminate attacks on the Republican
Party, asking credit for achievements he had ignored. At one point
the wife of a congressman, in tears, explained how Dobson's
broadside had hurt their family, inviting harsh questions from
friends. An emotional Dobson, according to one witness, responded,
"I'm so sorry I hurt you."

Sobered, Dobson canceled planned meetings with the New York Times
and the Washington Post, where he would have laid out his threat
to leave. But in the next two weeks, he sent lengthy, public letters
renewing the threat, which hangs in the air like distant thunder at
the Republican picnic.

This conflict dramatizes a growing gap between grass-roots
conservatism and governing conservatism, between the raised
expectations of activists and the weary realism of legislators.
It reveals a party that may be crumbling, not at its periphery
but at its center, among its most loyal supporters. And it may
be signaling a major shift in the attitudes of Christian
conservatives toward politics."


Dobson went to the Capitol building, Dobson went to the Republicans.
That is a far cry from "summoning" the leaders of the GOP.

Tii bad the divorce never became final.. Your loss, I suppose..

Recently, the religious reich component of the GOP
demographic began to push Sarah Pallin to prominence
and she WILL be backed by that rightwing
faction----which is needed by any republican to win the
nomination.

But the real point is that YOU are ignorant of what
they do.

Actually, your posting indicates that it is you who is ignorant


No, David.. That would not be truthful at all..

Then you come around here and babble your ignorant
beliefs and demand everyone clue you in to make up for
your lack of knowledge.

When did a polite request become a demand?


When did your evasive questions become a 'polite request'?

--And, when did you first rely upon that, instead of honest answers..


David Hartung November 28th 08 04:25 AM

The Separation of Church and State in America Today.,
 
Kurt_Lochner wrote:
David Hartung wrote:
Kurt_Lochner wrote:
David Hartung wrote:
wrote:
David Hartung deleted and then bleated:
wrote:

- - - - - -
Sorry Hartung, but you get told over and over by
several who answer you----that either you're one of the
most ill-infomed idiots on the usnet, or you're
pretending to be.

NO ONE sits by the 700 club channel recording Robertson
take credit for keeping hurricanes from hitting the SE
seaboard coast----but the PUBLIC RECORD has recorded
it, reported it, and laughed about it

THere isn't a week that goes by that Roberston doesn't
attribute the deviance from HIS interpretation of
dispensationalism to be the cause of "gods wrath" and
THAT gets reported and aired in the media

He attributed the Twin Towers on "gays" and god doing
it because we're not following HIS interpretation of
Scripture

Falwell sends out weekly news letters (now his son does
of course) railing against the god-less Americans and
how THEY'RE bringing the misery and woe onto America

If YOU'RE going to be informed, YOU need to find out
what they're saying and use YOUR powers of intellect
(or lack thereof) to ferret out the bull**** that you
automatically spout as IF it were truth

Dobson is famous for his attribution of fundamentalist
religious nuttery into political ideology----even
forcing Neut Gingrich to include his "3-pt agenda" into
the budgets just prior to the Government shutdown by
republicans

"I" shouldn't have to "cite that, you idiot

Any INFORMED American knows it.
The claim was that Robertson, Falwell and Dobson have claimed that
Republicans have the corner on Christianity.
You are again dishonestly trying to reframe what was said..

From earlier in the thread:
Soumay Nonay wrote:

"I've been told the Republican Party has exclusive franchise
on Christianity; it is easier for a camel to pass through
the eye of a needle than a non-Republican to enter the Kingdom
of God."


So you don't agree with the observation that Robertson, Falwell
and Dobson's alleged "churches" are predominantly involved in
politics, particularly the Republican party?


May I once again suggest that yo learn to read? your understanding of
the quote I provided is completely wrong.

Kurt_Lochner November 28th 08 02:56 PM

The Separation of Church and State in America Today.,
 
David Hartung wrote:

Kurt_Lochner wrote:

David Hartung wrote:

Kurt_Lochner wrote:

David Hartung wrote:

wrote:

David Hartung deleted and then bleated:

wrote:

- - - - - - - -
Sorry Hartung, but you get told over and over by
several who answer you----that either you're one of the
most ill-infomed idiots on the usnet, or you're
pretending to be.

NO ONE sits by the 700 club channel recording Robertson
take credit for keeping hurricanes from hitting the SE
seaboard coast----but the PUBLIC RECORD has recorded
it, reported it, and laughed about it

THere isn't a week that goes by that Roberston doesn't
attribute the deviance from HIS interpretation of
dispensationalism to be the cause of "gods wrath" and
THAT gets reported and aired in the media

He attributed the Twin Towers on "gays" and god doing
it because we're not following HIS interpretation of
Scripture

Falwell sends out weekly news letters (now his son does
of course) railing against the god-less Americans and
how THEY'RE bringing the misery and woe onto America

If YOU'RE going to be informed, YOU need to find out
what they're saying and use YOUR powers of intellect
(or lack thereof) to ferret out the bull**** that you
automatically spout as IF it were truth

Dobson is famous for his attribution of fundamentalist
religious nuttery into political ideology----even
forcing Neut Gingrich to include his "3-pt agenda" into
the budgets just prior to the Government shutdown by
republicans

"I" shouldn't have to "cite that, you idiot

Any INFORMED American knows it.

The claim was that Robertson, Falwell and Dobson have claimed that
Republicans have the corner on Christianity.

You are again dishonestly trying to reframe what was said..

From earlier in the thread:

Soumay Nonay wrote:

"I've been told the Republican Party has exclusive franchise
on Christianity; it is easier for a camel to pass through
the eye of a needle than a non-Republican to enter the Kingdom
of God."


So you don't agree with the observation that Robertson, Falwell
and Dobson's alleged "churches" are predominantly involved in
politics, particularly the Republican party?

How quaint..


May I once again suggest that yo learn to read?


No.. May I again suggest that "yo" learn to proof-read?

your understanding of the quote I provided is completely wrong.


Nope, the context which you're trying to misrepresent that quote
with is lacking a few details that I find amusing..

--And typical of a right-wing zealot..

David Hartung November 28th 08 03:11 PM

The Separation of Church and State in America Today.,
 
Kurt_Lochner wrote:
David Hartung wrote:
Kurt_Lochner wrote:
David Hartung wrote:
Kurt_Lochner wrote:
David Hartung wrote:
wrote:
David Hartung deleted and then bleated:
wrote:

- - - - - - - -
Sorry Hartung, but you get told over and over by
several who answer you----that either you're one of the
most ill-infomed idiots on the usnet, or you're
pretending to be.

NO ONE sits by the 700 club channel recording Robertson
take credit for keeping hurricanes from hitting the SE
seaboard coast----but the PUBLIC RECORD has recorded
it, reported it, and laughed about it

THere isn't a week that goes by that Roberston doesn't
attribute the deviance from HIS interpretation of
dispensationalism to be the cause of "gods wrath" and
THAT gets reported and aired in the media

He attributed the Twin Towers on "gays" and god doing
it because we're not following HIS interpretation of
Scripture

Falwell sends out weekly news letters (now his son does
of course) railing against the god-less Americans and
how THEY'RE bringing the misery and woe onto America

If YOU'RE going to be informed, YOU need to find out
what they're saying and use YOUR powers of intellect
(or lack thereof) to ferret out the bull**** that you
automatically spout as IF it were truth

Dobson is famous for his attribution of fundamentalist
religious nuttery into political ideology----even
forcing Neut Gingrich to include his "3-pt agenda" into
the budgets just prior to the Government shutdown by
republicans

"I" shouldn't have to "cite that, you idiot

Any INFORMED American knows it.
The claim was that Robertson, Falwell and Dobson have claimed that
Republicans have the corner on Christianity.
You are again dishonestly trying to reframe what was said..
From earlier in the thread:
Soumay Nonay wrote:

"I've been told the Republican Party has exclusive franchise
on Christianity; it is easier for a camel to pass through
the eye of a needle than a non-Republican to enter the Kingdom
of God."
So you don't agree with the observation that Robertson, Falwell
and Dobson's alleged "churches" are predominantly involved in
politics, particularly the Republican party?

How quaint..

May I once again suggest that yo learn to read?


No.. May I again suggest that "yo" learn to proof-read?


Point taken.

your understanding of the quote I provided is completely wrong.


Nope, the context which you're trying to misrepresent that quote
with is lacking a few details that I find amusing..

--And typical of a right-wing zealot..


From what I see, you are making excuses.

Typical.

David Hartung November 28th 08 03:16 PM

(OT) : How Liberals Define : The Separation of Church and Statein America Today.]
 
wrote:
On Wed, 26 Nov 2008 22:29:47 -0600, David Hartung
wrote:

Dobson has/had enough control over the GOP platform
committee to have had the power to summon Neut Gingrich
and the entire GOP leadership before him and threaten
them with retaliation unless his "agenda" was included
in legislation pending before government.

When, specifically did this happen?


Fall of 1994, setting up the vetoes by Clinton in 1995
over the budgets, eventally leading to the GOP shutdown

ALL of the major networks covered the event---(not the
meeting itself, but the fact it was called)

A leak from that meeting was published in various
internet sites describing Dobson's threats to refuse
funding to GOP candidates, to run candidates against
incumbents, and to use his media empire to campaign
against them


Okay, the meeting took place. There are several questions:

1. Was the meeting called, or requested by Dobson?

2. What is wrong with applying political pressure? The Left does it all
the time.

While I am skeptical of Dobson's group, I do pout him in a different
category, simply because he is not an ordained minister, and does not
seem to be trying to build himself an empire.

Gingrich complied.


David Hartung November 28th 08 03:23 PM

The Separation of Church and State in America Today.,
 
wrote:
On Thu, 27 Nov 2008 22:25:08 -0600, David Hartung
wrote:

So you don't agree with the observation that Robertson, Falwell
and Dobson's alleged "churches" are predominantly involved in
politics, particularly the Republican party?

May I once again suggest that yo learn to read? your understanding of
the quote I provided is completely wrong.


If YOU don't understand that Falwell, Dobson, and
Robertson are as influential as they are in GOP
politics, promotes the basic belief that republicans
are the More "moral" party, how in **** can you make
conclusions credibly?


I fully understand the influence of Dobson, Falwell(deceased) and
Robertson. A previous poster made a statement which led me to believe
that the three had claimed that only Republicans could be Christians. I
was asking for someone to support that claim.

Kurt_Lochner November 28th 08 03:33 PM

The Separation of Church and State in America Today.,
 
David Hartung wrote:

Kurt_Lochner wrote:

David Hartung wrote:

Kurt_Lochner wrote:

David Hartung wrote:

Kurt_Lochner wrote:

David Hartung wrote:

wrote:

David Hartung deleted and then bleated:

wrote:

- - - - - - - - - -
Sorry Hartung, but you get told over and over by
several who answer you----that either you're one of the
most ill-infomed idiots on the usnet, or you're
pretending to be.

NO ONE sits by the 700 club channel recording Robertson
take credit for keeping hurricanes from hitting the SE
seaboard coast----but the PUBLIC RECORD has recorded
it, reported it, and laughed about it

THere isn't a week that goes by that Roberston doesn't
attribute the deviance from HIS interpretation of
dispensationalism to be the cause of "gods wrath" and
THAT gets reported and aired in the media

He attributed the Twin Towers on "gays" and god doing
it because we're not following HIS interpretation of
Scripture

Falwell sends out weekly news letters (now his son does
of course) railing against the god-less Americans and
how THEY'RE bringing the misery and woe onto America

If YOU'RE going to be informed, YOU need to find out
what they're saying and use YOUR powers of intellect
(or lack thereof) to ferret out the bull**** that you
automatically spout as IF it were truth

Dobson is famous for his attribution of fundamentalist
religious nuttery into political ideology----even
forcing Neut Gingrich to include his "3-pt agenda" into
the budgets just prior to the Government shutdown by
republicans

"I" shouldn't have to "cite that, you idiot

Any INFORMED American knows it.

The claim was that Robertson, Falwell and Dobson have claimed that
Republicans have the corner on Christianity.

You are again dishonestly trying to reframe what was said..

From earlier in the thread:

Soumay Nonay wrote:

"I've been told the Republican Party has exclusive franchise
on Christianity; it is easier for a camel to pass through
the eye of a needle than a non-Republican to enter the Kingdom
of God."

So you don't agree with the observation that Robertson, Falwell
and Dobson's alleged "churches" are predominantly involved in
politics, particularly the Republican party?

How quaint..

May I once again suggest that yo learn to read?


No.. May I again suggest that "yo" learn to proof-read?


Point taken.


Good.. You've made several typos which I could almost
qualify as Freudian Slips in the past 72 hours..

your understanding of the quote I provided is completely wrong.


Nope, the context which you're trying to misrepresent that quote
with is lacking a few details that I find amusing..

--And typical of a right-wing zealot..


From what I see, you are making excuses.


No, you're the one making excuses, David. You've again deliberately
tried to 'reframe' this discussion to suit your opinion, rather than
openly discussing how the churches led by Dobson, Falwell and
Robertson (eg "Moral Majority", "religious right") have violated
the separation of church and state..

You're even blindly assuming that these 'religious' figures
haven't been trying to build themselves 'empires' that have
attempted to force the Republican party candidates to accept
some of Dobson, Robertson, et al's religious agenda..

If you're going to quibble those facts, then you're not only
being dishonest with me, you're being dishonest with yourself..

--Which, again, is typical for a right-wing zealot..

David Hartung November 28th 08 03:43 PM

The Separation of Church and State in America Today.,
 
wrote:
On Thu, 27 Nov 2008 05:38:27 -0600, David Hartung
wrote:

There have been many times throughout history, where the Christian
Church has gotten in bed with government. What specifically are you
referring to?


Okay, it seems as if you were speaking generally, rather than
specifically. Thank you.

From the establishment of the Christian faith as
officially Roman and the fall of the Roman Empire, the
Catholic Church and it's Popes were the ONLY government
that most/all of Europe had.


True.

The HRE empire lasted until the rise of the nation
states began throwing off the Rome authority, then the
reformation began using the "Divine right of Kings"


The desire of the local states to have more control over their affairs
was undoubtedly a factor in the success of the Reformation.

The Pilgrims were EXTREMIST religious nuts who
literally have nothing in common with any known
religous group today----outside their insistence that
THEY should have no restrictions placed on their faith


The Pilgrims colony in the New World was never large enough to "oppress"
anyone. They were quickly overtaken by the Puritans of the Massachusetts
Bay Colony. The absolutely oppressed those who did not hew to the
official faith.

HOWEVER, once established in the colonies, THEY became
the oppessors, forcing everyone to adopt their views,
punishing those who did not.


see above.

The association of official state religions dominated
Europeans


Absolutely.

Prohibition was an American example of religous nuttery
laying the groundwork for corruption, crime, and
eventually gave rise to organized crime.


Well, it gave rise to the Kennedy wealth, if nothing else. While it is
probably true that prohibition made organized crime a growth industry, I
believe that you will find that they existed long before prohibition.

The entire south was riddled with bible waving,
scripture spouting red-necks justifying their lynching,
segregation from positions of law-enforcment to judges.


What has this to do with official state churches?

Yes, the Klan misused scripture to justify their atrocities, but there
was no "state" church in the south.

Now we have had the resurgence of religious
fundamentalism promoting a hapless (and thank god
whipped) political party into more and more extremist
positions-----giving us a clearer picture of why
religion and government is dangerous.


Falwell and Robertson badly misunderstand the place of the Church in our
society, but to take a stand for strong moral values is not "extremist".

Your foul uninformed bigotry is far more extremist than anything on
which Falwell and company have taken stands.

By the way, you are aware that Jerry Falwell is dead?



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