RadioBanter - Shutting Down Dissent

Kurt_Lochner wrote:
David Hartung wrote:

From what I have seen, non-Christians are a majority of both parties.

That presupposes that the so-called "christians" involved in both the
GOP and 'evangelical' churches aren't really "christians", correct?

I gave you a response based upon my own observation. Here is an article
which goes into the subject in some detail:

http://tinyurl.com/6ktvtk

This is an interesting article. According to the article 51% of
respondents qualify as "born-again" Christians. Truthfully, I am not
100% certain what this means as all Christians are born again in the
waters of Holy Baptism. I may have to hearken back to my days as a
Baptist to sort out the answer.

In any case, let me know what you think of the article.

David Hartung

November 28th 08 05:41 PM

The Separation of Church and State in America Today.,

Kurt_Lochner wrote:

You keep your religion out my government, and keeping the
government out of your religion will follow along nicely..

--Otherwise, you can expect the usual pogroms of the Dark Ages..
You might be surprised to learn that I am in full agreement,
although for different reasons.

So? Why do you not elaborate on that, instead of avoiding
the matter of the damnable influence of religion on our
national politics?

Oh, that's because the "moral majority" isn't either..

Without fail, every time the Church has gotten in bed with
the government, it has proven to be a spiritual disaster
for the Church.

Not to mention that such a government has failed to keep
the consent of the governed.. Whole nations have risen from
that alone, David..

It would be a different topic of discussion, but the concept of
government with the consent of the governed is a relatively new one, and
not as widespread as perhaps it should be. During the Middle ages, such
a concept was likely unknown.

That's something a real "libertarian" would know from the start..

No where in the New Testament do we see any sign that the church
was politically active.

That era of Mankind's history was also known as the "Dark Ages" too..

Are you referring to the middle ages, where the Pope was seen as
superior to the temporal government, or are you referring to the period
of Paul's ministry covered in the New Testament?

These two reasons alone are enough for me to want the church
to have nothing to do with the government.

Yet, you quibble the details of present religious leaders
attempting to hijack our national government. Why is that?

You will notice as our exchange went on, I put Dobson in a
different category from Robertson and Falwell.

You will also notice that I'm not accepting that excuse any longer..

Not my problem.

Dobson's group, on the other hand, seems to be designed as a political
group who's members happen to be Christians, and who's purpose is to
advance the moral values of the church. Even though I might not always
agree 100% with Dobson, I see his group as essentially a good thing.
Should they cross the line from advancing a moral code based upon the
Scriptures, to advancing the idea that Christianity should become the
national faith, then I will oppose them.

You shouldn't wait that long, David. They've already become the
leaders of what has manifested itself as a theocratic fascism..

Yet our nation still has a throughly secular government, freely elected
by the people. Robertson and company have had little success.

Kurt_Lochner

November 28th 08 05:44 PM

The Separation of Church and State in America Today.,

David Hartung deleted:

Kurt_Lochner restored the original text/context:

David Hartung wrote:

Kurt_Lochner wrote:

David Hartung wrote:

Kurt_Lochner wrote:
- - - - -
You're even blindly assuming that these 'religious' figures
haven't been trying to build themselves 'empires' that have
attempted to force the Republican party candidates to accept
some of Dobson, Robertson, et al's religious agenda..

In truth, I am absolutely convinced that Robertson and Falwell
would like to build a religious empire, with them in charge.

And so, you think that they haven't? How did you conclude that?

Perhaps I should have been more explicit.

That would be refreshing, in your case specifically..

I believe that these men, and others like them would like to return
to the days when the temporal government was subservient to the Church,
and they would like to be the one in charge of the Church.

And I repeat, why do you think that they haven't already
been trying, as a concerted effort of many decades, to do
just exactly that?

Don't get me wrong, as I am glad to hear that you do not
support a theocratic fascist government, but you do seem
to be quite the apologist for such taking place now..

In Dobson's case, I am a little more uncertain.

Henh! Heisenberg didn't come into play here, right?

If you're going to quibble those facts, then you're not only
being dishonest with me, you're being dishonest with yourself..

The original claim was not that these men are building empires,
but that the Republicans had the corner on Christianity,

Ask yourself this.. How many non-christians are involved
in the Republican party? Are they a majority, or a minority..

--Get back to me when you can quibble that..

From what I have seen, non-Christians are a majority of both parties.

That presupposes that the so-called "christians" involved in both the
GOP and 'evangelical' churches aren't really "christians", correct?

I gave you a response based upon my own observation

Somehow, your 'observations' are not of an objective observer,
at least in my experiences, David. Having experienced the
results of 'religious politics' here in Oklahoma, I have a
little more than most to say about that, too..

Here is an article which goes into the subject in some detail:

http://tinyurl.com/6ktvtk

An evangelical press association member, eh?

--As such, I do not trust their statistics. or numbers..

Dave[_18_]

November 28th 08 05:44 PM

The Separation of Church and State in America Today.,

David Hartung wrote:
Kurt_Lochner wrote:
David Hartung wrote:

From what I have seen, non-Christians are a majority of both parties.

That presupposes that the so-called "christians" involved in both the
GOP and 'evangelical' churches aren't really "christians", correct?

I gave you a response based upon my own observation. Here is an article
which goes into the subject in some detail:

http://tinyurl.com/6ktvtk

This is an interesting article. According to the article 51% of
respondents qualify as "born-again" Christians. Truthfully, I am not
100% certain what this means as all Christians are born again in the
waters of Holy Baptism. I may have to hearken back to my days as a
Baptist to sort out the answer.

In any case, let me know what you think of the article.

Protestant 51.3%, Roman Catholic 23.9%, Mormon 1.7%, other Christian
1.6%, Jewish 1.7%, Buddhist 0.7%, Muslim 0.6%, other or unspecified
2.5%, unaffiliated 12.1%, none 4% (2007 est.)

https://www.cia.gov/library/publicat...us.html#People

Kurt_Lochner

November 28th 08 05:50 PM

The Separation of Church and State in America Today.,

David Hartung deleted:

Kurt_Lochner restored, both context and formatting:

David Hartung deleted:

Kurt_Lochner again restored:

David Hartung wrote:

wrote:

David Hartung deleted:

Kurt_Lochner restored the omitted text/context:
- - - - - - - --
"I've been told the Republican Party has exclusive franchise
on Christianity; it is easier for a camel to pass through
the eye of a needle than a non-Republican to enter the Kingdom
of God."

So you don't agree with the observation that Robertson, Falwell
and Dobson's alleged "churches" are predominantly involved in
politics, particularly the Republican party?

May I once again suggest that yo learn to read? your understanding of
the quote I provided is completely wrong.

If YOU don't understand that Falwell, Dobson, and
Robertson are as influential as they are in GOP
politics, promotes the basic belief that republicans
are the More "moral" party, how in **** can you make
conclusions credibly?

I fully understand the influence of Dobson, Falwell(deceased)
and Robertson. A previous poster made a statement which led me
to believe that the three had claimed that only Republicans
could be Christians.

That's incorrect, and yet another deliberate mis-statement of
what was actually posted, which you also deliberately deleted
from the quote-backs of your message..

What's become of the Republican Party? Kow-towing to religious,
an evangelical figures, seems to violate the entire concept
of separation of church and state..

You keep your religion out my government, and keeping the
government out of your religion will follow along nicely..

--Otherwise, you can expect the usual pogroms of the Dark Ages..

You might be surprised to learn that I am in full agreement,
although for different reasons.

So? Why do you not elaborate on that, instead of avoiding
the matter of the damnable influence of religion on our
national politics?

Oh, that's because the "moral majority" isn't either..

Without fail, every time the Church has gotten in bed with
the government, it has proven to be a spiritual disaster
for the Church.

Not to mention that such a government has failed to keep
the consent of the governed.. Whole nations have risen from
that alone, David..

That's something a real "libertarian" would know from the start..

It would be a different topic of discussion, but the concept of
government with the consent of the governed is a relatively new
one,

I do not agree with that, at all..

In this case "new" is 200 years old..

No where in the New Testament do we see any sign that the church
was politically active.

That era of Mankind's history was also known as the "Dark Ages" too..

Are you referring to the middle ages

Nope. Why do you even ask that?

These tow reasons alone are enough for me to want the church
to have nothing to do with the government.

Yet, you quibble the details of present religious leaders
attempting to hijack our national government. Why is that?

You will notice as our exchange went on, I put Dobson in a
different category from Robertson and Falwell.

You will also notice that I'm not accepting that excuse any longer..

Not my problem.

Nor mine..

Dobson's group, on the other hand, seems to be designed as a political
group who's members happen to be Christians, and who's purpose is to
advance the moral values of the church. Even though I might not always
agree 100% with Dobson, I see his group as essentially a good thing.
Should they cross the line from advancing a moral code based upon the
Scriptures, to advancing the idea that Christianity should become the
national faith, then I will oppose them.

You shouldn't wait that long, David. They've already become the
leaders of what has manifested itself as a theocratic fascism..

--As Frank Zappa pointed out a couple of dozen years ago..

Yet our nation still has a throughly secular government

Not if you can help it, hunh..

--Your 'libertarian' party is but an excuse for right-wing extremism..

David Hartung

November 28th 08 05:52 PM

The Separation of Church and State in America Today.,

Kurt_Lochner wrote:
David Hartung deleted:
Kurt_Lochner restored the original text/context:
David Hartung wrote:
Kurt_Lochner wrote:
David Hartung wrote:
Kurt_Lochner wrote:
- - - - -
You're even blindly assuming that these 'religious' figures
haven't been trying to build themselves 'empires' that have
attempted to force the Republican party candidates to accept
some of Dobson, Robertson, et al's religious agenda..
In truth, I am absolutely convinced that Robertson and Falwell
would like to build a religious empire, with them in charge.
And so, you think that they haven't? How did you conclude that?
Perhaps I should have been more explicit.
That would be refreshing, in your case specifically..

I believe that these men, and others like them would like to return
to the days when the temporal government was subservient to the Church,
and they would like to be the one in charge of the Church.
And I repeat, why do you think that they haven't already
been trying, as a concerted effort of many decades, to do
just exactly that?

Don't get me wrong, as I am glad to hear that you do not
support a theocratic fascist government, but you do seem
to be quite the apologist for such taking place now..

In Dobson's case, I am a little more uncertain.
Henh! Heisenberg didn't come into play here, right?

If you're going to quibble those facts, then you're not only
being dishonest with me, you're being dishonest with yourself..
The original claim was not that these men are building empires,
but that the Republicans had the corner on Christianity,
Ask yourself this.. How many non-christians are involved
in the Republican party? Are they a majority, or a minority..

--Get back to me when you can quibble that..
From what I have seen, non-Christians are a majority of both parties.

That presupposes that the so-called "christians" involved in both the
GOP and 'evangelical' churches aren't really "christians", correct?
I gave you a response based upon my own observation

Somehow, your 'observations' are not of an objective observer,
at least in my experiences, David. Having experienced the
results of 'religious politics' here in Oklahoma, I have a
little more than most to say about that, too..

My observations were never meant to be objective.

Here is an article which goes into the subject in some detail:

http://tinyurl.com/6ktvtk

An evangelical press association member, eh?

--As such, I do not trust their statistics. or numbers..

Your choice. This is still a free country.

David Hartung

November 28th 08 05:55 PM

The Separation of Church and State in America Today.,

Kurt_Lochner wrote:
David Hartung deleted:

Yet our nation still has a throughly secular government

Not if you can help it, hunh..

You really need to pay attention to what people say.

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