CW wrote:

I won't go into detail but the broomstick (or any helicaly wound antenna)
gives up performance for size. The straiter the wire, the better off you
are. If you have the space, just stretch it out strait.


Experimentation and experience have taught me that this is
basically correct. "Broomstick" antennas give pretty good performance
in a very compact space - they are even (marginally) "portable". But
for signal-pulling ability, they'll never beat a well-thought-out
longwire or randomwire. If you can tuck a one-meter broomstick into
your car somewhere for traveling, you've got the world
by the butt for shortwave listening away from home. But at home - your
"permanent space" - go with a random or longwire, if you possibly can.

Tony





"Dave" wrote in message
...
I just got through picking up a ton of discontinued wire from my local
Home
Depot, and was planning on building a "broomstick" antenna like some I
found
described on the net. Got a question though: doesn't "stretching out" the
coil to a meter or more reduce the inductance of the resulting coil? Why
wouldn't it work better to just leave it on the spool? I was under the
impression that the formula for calculating the inductance for a given
coil
involved multiplying the square of the number of coils by the ratio of the
coil width to length. Wouldn't this mean that a "longer" coil would have
a
lower inductance than a "shorter" coil, given the same length of wire and
approximate diameter of coils?

Forgive me if I'm being stupid here, it has been twenty years since I have
attempted anything like this, but that was what I thought.

The main account I am thinking of was related by someone in Saudi Arabia
who
wrapped 1.2 kM of wire around a piece of PVC and vastly improved their
reception of WWV in the states. I was going to do something similar, and
then looked at the two spools of wire that I was about to unwrap. They
are
already coils, so shouldn't I be able to just hook them up to an aligator
clip and stick this to my whip antenna? (I am now thinking about taking
the
wire off of the smaller spool and adding it to the larger. Shouldn't that
work?) And if I leave the wire on the spools (which are plastic) couldn't
I
turn them toward or away from the station of interest to further improve
reception? (I could even put this in my attic, gaining a few feet of
elevation and hiding it from my unappreciative wife.)

Any input on any part of this idea is more than welcome. I would greaty
value the opinions of those who have actually done something like one of
these two options.

Thanks,

Dave





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Hmm. Okay. Only I don't have much outside space available. I *might* be
able to manage 20-30 feet of random wire, but that is about it. And I have
more than a mile of small-guage wire on these two spools. I was planning on
wrapping it around a five-foot long piece of 4 inch PVC and standing it
behind a closet door. Since my last last message I tried a very crude
"hook-up" with one of the spools of wire and got absolutely no improvement
in reception. Now I understand why, thanks to you good people.

Back to the 20-30' piece of random wi my only option is to run it out the
window and along the top rail of the fence in the back yard. Would this
really outdo a massive broomstick antenna?

Thanks for the input. You've all got me thinking.

Dave


"Tony Meloche" wrote in message
...


CW wrote:

I won't go into detail but the broomstick (or any helicaly wound
antenna)
gives up performance for size. The straiter the wire, the better off you
are. If you have the space, just stretch it out strait.


Experimentation and experience have taught me that this is
basically correct. "Broomstick" antennas give pretty good performance
in a very compact space - they are even (marginally) "portable". But
for signal-pulling ability, they'll never beat a well-thought-out
longwire or randomwire. If you can tuck a one-meter broomstick into
your car somewhere for traveling, you've got the world
by the butt for shortwave listening away from home. But at home - your
"permanent space" - go with a random or longwire, if you possibly can.

Tony





"Dave" wrote in message
...
I just got through picking up a ton of discontinued wire from my local
Home
Depot, and was planning on building a "broomstick" antenna like some I
found
described on the net. Got a question though: doesn't "stretching out"
the
coil to a meter or more reduce the inductance of the resulting coil?
Why
wouldn't it work better to just leave it on the spool? I was under
the
impression that the formula for calculating the inductance for a given
coil
involved multiplying the square of the number of coils by the ratio of
the
coil width to length. Wouldn't this mean that a "longer" coil would
have
a
lower inductance than a "shorter" coil, given the same length of wire
and
approximate diameter of coils?

Forgive me if I'm being stupid here, it has been twenty years since I
have
attempted anything like this, but that was what I thought.

The main account I am thinking of was related by someone in Saudi
Arabia
who
wrapped 1.2 kM of wire around a piece of PVC and vastly improved their
reception of WWV in the states. I was going to do something similar,
and
then looked at the two spools of wire that I was about to unwrap.
They
are
already coils, so shouldn't I be able to just hook them up to an
aligator
clip and stick this to my whip antenna? (I am now thinking about
taking
the
wire off of the smaller spool and adding it to the larger. Shouldn't
that
work?) And if I leave the wire on the spools (which are plastic)
couldn't
I
turn them toward or away from the station of interest to further
improve
reception? (I could even put this in my attic, gaining a few feet of
elevation and hiding it from my unappreciative wife.)

Any input on any part of this idea is more than welcome. I would
greaty
value the opinions of those who have actually done something like one
of
these two options.

Thanks,

Dave





----== Posted via Newsfeed.Com - Unlimited-Uncensored-Secure Usenet
News==----
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Newsgroups
---= 19 East/West-Coast Specialized Servers - Total Privacy via Encryption
=---

= = = "Dave"
= = = wrote in message ...

Hmm. Okay. Only I don't have much outside space available.
I *might* be able to manage 20-30 feet of random wire, but
that is about it.


=R= Assuming that his is NOT a Metal Fence.

Another: [Hidden] "On-the-Fence" Random Wire Antenna

HOW TO: Use a short section of Fence for a
Low Level "Folded" Random Wire Antenna.

* Run a Coax Cable out to the Bottom of the Fence.
(Can be TV type 75 Ohm Coax Cable)

* Install a Ground Rod / Ground Wire HERE.
(If you have a Metal Fence Post Anchors ?
Use One as the Ground Point.)

* Use a Matching Transformer to connect the Antenna Element
to the Coax Cable.
(This can be a TV type 30075 Ohm Matching Transformer.

* Route the "WIRE" (Antenna Element) from the Starting-End of
the Fence; about one foot above and paralell to the ground to
the Far-End of the Fence.
* * Then go "UP" Vertically for about a foot.
* * Next route the Wire parallel to the ground; back to the
Starting-End of the Fence.
* * Then go "UP" Vertically for about a foot.
* * Next route the Wire parallel to the ground; back to the
Far-End of the Fence.
* * Then go "UP" Vertically for about a foot.
* * Next route the Wire parallel to the ground; back to the
Starting-End of the Fence.
* * Then go "UP" Vertically for about a foot.
* * Next route the Wire parallel to the ground; back to the
Far-End of the Fence.
= = = 100Ft - 150Ft Random Wire Antenna
(5 X 20Ft = 100Ft -&- 5 X 30Ft = 150Ft)

Sorta - Looka - Lika - Diz:
_____________________________x
|____________________________
_____________________________|
|____________________________
===MT________________________|
....G.........................

..
..
And I have more than a mile of small-guage wire on these two
spools. I was planning on wrapping it around a five-foot long
piece of 4 inch PVC and standing it behind a closet door.

=R= Better to wrap the wire Length-Wise 'inside & out'
(over and through) the PVC Pipe with about 1" spacing.
This would be about 120 Ft of wire in a vertical format.

..
..
Since my last last message I tried a very crude "hook-up" with
one of the spools of wire and got absolutely no improvement
in reception. Now I understand why, thanks to you good people.

Back to the 20-30' piece of random wi my only option is to
run it out the window and along the top rail of the fence in
the back yard. Would this really outdo a massive broomstick
antenna ?


=R= ? QUESTION ? "Top Rail" Is this a Metal Fence ?

..
..
Thanks for the input. You've all got me thinking.

Dave




iane ~ RHF

..

..

"RHF" wrote in message
om...
= = = "Dave"
= = = wrote in message ...

Hmm. Okay. Only I don't have much outside space available.
I *might* be able to manage 20-30 feet of random wire, but
that is about it.


=R= Assuming that his is NOT a Metal Fence.


It is a metal fence. Chain-link. I didn't think that was a very likely
answer to my problems.


Another: [Hidden] "On-the-Fence" Random Wire Antenna

HOW TO: Use a short section of Fence for a
Low Level "Folded" Random Wire Antenna.

* Run a Coax Cable out to the Bottom of the Fence.
(Can be TV type 75 Ohm Coax Cable)

* Install a Ground Rod / Ground Wire HERE.
(If you have a Metal Fence Post Anchors ?
Use One as the Ground Point.)

* Use a Matching Transformer to connect the Antenna Element
to the Coax Cable.
(This can be a TV type 30075 Ohm Matching Transformer.

* Route the "WIRE" (Antenna Element) from the Starting-End of
the Fence; about one foot above and paralell to the ground to
the Far-End of the Fence.
* * Then go "UP" Vertically for about a foot.
* * Next route the Wire parallel to the ground; back to the
Starting-End of the Fence.
* * Then go "UP" Vertically for about a foot.
* * Next route the Wire parallel to the ground; back to the
Far-End of the Fence.
* * Then go "UP" Vertically for about a foot.
* * Next route the Wire parallel to the ground; back to the
Starting-End of the Fence.
* * Then go "UP" Vertically for about a foot.
* * Next route the Wire parallel to the ground; back to the
Far-End of the Fence.
= = = 100Ft - 150Ft Random Wire Antenna
(5 X 20Ft = 100Ft -&- 5 X 30Ft = 150Ft)

Sorta - Looka - Lika - Diz:
_____________________________x
|____________________________
_____________________________|
|____________________________
===MT________________________|
...G.........................

.
.
And I have more than a mile of small-guage wire on these two
spools. I was planning on wrapping it around a five-foot long
piece of 4 inch PVC and standing it behind a closet door.

=R= Better to wrap the wire Length-Wise 'inside & out'
(over and through) the PVC Pipe with about 1" spacing.
This would be about 120 Ft of wire in a vertical format.

.

I'm not sure how I could do that, at least with my 5-foot piece of PVC. Any
ideas?


.
Since my last last message I tried a very crude "hook-up" with
one of the spools of wire and got absolutely no improvement
in reception. Now I understand why, thanks to you good people.

Back to the 20-30' piece of random wi my only option is to
run it out the window and along the top rail of the fence in
the back yard. Would this really outdo a massive broomstick
antenna ?


=R= ? QUESTION ? "Top Rail" Is this a Metal Fence ?

.
.
Thanks for the input. You've all got me thinking.

Dave




iane ~ RHF

.

.

Dave

Dave wrote:

It is a metal fence. Chain-link. I didn't think that was a very likely
answer to my problems.

I'd be curious as to why running a wire along a metal fence would be
such a problem. I just ran about 200 feet of wire along the top of a
wire fence (2 inch square openings), albeit the type that is covered
with some green vinyl. And I have noticed CONSIDERABLE improvement in
reception. Wouldn't attaching to so much metal just help to expand the
range of the antenna?

Also, related to the metal fence thing: what would happen were I to
attach a wire to my metal roof?

And as long as we're on the subject of random wire, what's the deal with
needing "stranded" wire. I had about 100 feet of that first, and then
when I went to buy some more all they had was single strand, so I bought
that and just added that to the end of the stranded. what's the
importance/need of using stranded?

av

AV wrote:

Dave wrote:

It is a metal fence. Chain-link. I didn't think that was a very likely
answer to my problems.

I'd be curious as to why running a wire along a metal fence would be
such a problem. I just ran about 200 feet of wire along the top of a
wire fence (2 inch square openings), albeit the type that is covered
with some green vinyl. And I have noticed CONSIDERABLE improvement in
reception. Wouldn't attaching to so much metal just help to expand the
range of the antenna?

Also, related to the metal fence thing: what would happen were I to
attach a wire to my metal roof?

And as long as we're on the subject of random wire, what's the deal with
needing "stranded" wire. I had about 100 feet of that first, and then
when I went to buy some more all they had was single strand, so I bought
that and just added that to the end of the stranded. what's the
importance/need of using stranded?

av


As far as ability to pick up RF signal, I'm not aware that there *is*
a bit of difference. Stranded is a bit stronger, perhaps, but if anyone
ever told you you "had" to use stranded for antenna wire, I'd be
intersted in hearing their justification for that.

Tony


----== Posted via Newsfeed.Com - Unlimited-Uncensored-Secure Usenet News==----
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TM,

Antennas - WHY - Stranded Wire is a 'little' Better.

1. More Flexible and Less Breakage.

2. If you use a Single Strand (1) type Wire.
When the One Strand Breaks the Wire Has Failed.

3. If you use a Multi-Stranded (19) type Wire.
When the One to Three Strands Breaks the Wire Has NOT Failed;
and you still have a Wire that would be rated at about 85%.
NOTE: Nineteen Stranded Wire has a Single Strand;
that is Surounded by Six Strands (Optimum Re-inforcement);
that is Surounded by Twelve Strands (Optimum Re-inforcement);
{Like A Bridge Support Cable}
Then Covered by Insulation.

4. IIRC: For the same AWG Size Wire the Stranded Wire is
Rated as Stronger and Lighter then the Single Strand Wire.

5. RF Wise - Multi-Strand Wire has more Surface Area for RF to
Travel On. So specialty Antenna Wires like
* "QuietFlex" (41 Strand @ #14 AWG)
* "Flex-Weave" (168 Strands @ #14 AWG)
Can Actually (In-Fact) make a' difference' in your Reception.

? NOW ? IS ? ANY ? OF ? THIS ? TRUE ?

REMEMBER: The Antenna & Ground System is 55.5% of the
Radio/Receiver and Antenna/Ground Reception Equation.
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/SWL-AM...na/message/288

WHE "SWL Antennas and AM & FM Antennas" eGroup on YAHOO !
- When You NEED to Contemplate the
- - "Aerial High" and the
- - - "True Meaning of Ground".

iane ~ RHF
All are WELCOME at this "Antenna Ashram"
+ Who Seek Better Reception
+ + And a Clear Understanding
+ + + From That Which Transcends the Ether and Beyond.
..
..
= = = Tony Meloche
= = = wrote in message ...
AV wrote:

Dave wrote:

It is a metal fence. Chain-link. I didn't think that
was a very likely answer to my problems.

I'd be curious as to why running a wire along a metal
fence would be such a problem. I just ran about 200
feet of wire along the top of a wire fence (2 inch
square openings), albeit the type that is covered
with some green vinyl. And I have noticed CONSIDERABLE
improvement in reception. Wouldn't attaching to so
much metal just help to expand the range of the antenna?

Also, related to the metal fence thing: what would
happen were I to attach a wire to my metal roof?

And as long as we're on the subject of random wire,
what's the deal with needing "stranded" wire. I had
about 100 feet of that first, and then when I went
to buy some more all they had was single strand, so
I bought that and just added that to the end of the
stranded. what's the importance/need of using stranded?

av


As far as ability to pick up RF signal, I'm not aware
that there *is* a bit of difference. Stranded is a
bit stronger, perhaps, but if anyone ever told you you
"had" to use stranded for antenna wire, I'd be
intersted in hearing their justification for that.

Tony


..

AV & DAVE,

FIRST: These are NOT Transmitting Antennas so the Metal
Fence does NOT represent a 'potential' Hazard to your
Transmitter. (Possible Direct Short Circuit to Ground.)

"AV" - It's Not the Fence...
Its the 200 Feet of Wire that makes up your Antenna Element.

NOTE: With Metal Fences "Insulated" Wire seems to work better )

Two Points of View for 'shorter' (20Ft-50Ft) Insulated Wire
Antenna Elements that are mount "ON" or "THRU" Metal Fences:

* Some people may tell you to run/route the Insulated Wire
alone the "Top" of the Metal Fence.
The Reasoning Being: The Wire is Higher in the Air
and Off the Ground.
(The Metal Fence will have less effect on the RF Signals
being Received.)

* Other people may tell you to run/route the Insulated Wire
alone the "Middle" of the Metal Fence.
(Half-Way between the Top and Bottom of the Fence.)
The Reasoning Being: The Wire is in the Air and Off the Ground.
(The Wire is being 'coupled' to the Metal Fence and the "Whole"
Metal Fence has become the Antenna with a greater capture are
to Receive RF Signals.)


THIRD OPTION: "Above-the-Fence" Field SWL Antenna for a Field Radio.

Recently I had the need to build a 'temporary' Low Noise SWL
Antenna that was going to be 'mounted' ABOVE a Cyclone Fence.
NOTE: The Fence was down the Hill about 75 Feet from the Deck
of a Cabin. The Fence ran between a small Lake and a Cabin
overlooking the Lake.
* The Antenna Element was 100 Feet of Landscape Lighting Cable
(Heavy Duty Outdoors Zip Cord).
* The Fence was a Six Feet (6Ft) Tall Chain Line Fence.
* I walked-off the fence with a note book and pencil.
The Fence Sections (Poles) were 20 Ft apart.
* When down to the hardware store and bought Six 10 Ft
pieces of 1" PVC Pipe.
* Also bought some plastic Locking Wire Ties.
* Drilled a hole in one end of each of the PVC Pipes and
installed a Wire Tie with a 2"-3" Open Loop.
* Placed a piece of PVC Pipe next to each of the Metal
Fence Poles.
* * Attached a Guide Rope to the two end pieces of PVC Pipe.
* Ran/Routed the Antenna Element through the Open Wire Tie Loops.
* Affixed the two Feed-End wires of the Antenna Element
across a TV 300 Ohm Matching Transformer (MT) and connected
100Ft of 75 Ohm Coax Cable to the other end of the MT.
* * Attached a 12 Ft Ground Wire to the 75 Ohm Side of the MT.
* At the Far-End of the Antenna Element; stripped and twisted
together the two wires and covered them with electrical tape.
* Place the Far-End PVC Pipe in the Vertical Position and
used two Wire Ties to one at the Bottom of the fence and one
at the top of the fence to hold it in place. Plus used the
Guide Rope to Counter the Force of the Antenna Element.
* Next placed the four middle pieces of PVC Pipe in the
Vertical Position and used two Wire Ties to one at the Bottom
of the fence and one at the top of the fence to hold it in place.
* Then the Feed-End PVC Pipe in the Vertical Position and
used two Wire Ties to one at the Bottom of the fence and one
at the top of the fence to hold it in place. Plus used the
Guide Rope to Counter the Force of the Antenna Element.
* Attached the other end of the Ground Wire to the Metal
Fence Post with a Large Hose Clamp at ground level; at the
base of the Metal Fence Post and the in-the-ground Cement
Anchor (2Ft-3Ft).
* Ran/routed the Coax Cable from the the Antenna Element
to the Receivers location on a Deck. Used a second grounding
point directly under the deck at one of the Metal Pier Anchors.
* Terminate the Coax Cable with an "F" Connector to PL-259
Plug Adapter for connection to the Receivers LO-Z (50 Ohm)
SO-239 Jack. Or, use a second MT and Connect the 300 Ohm
Output Leads to the Receiver's HI-Z (500 Ohm) Terminals.

TBL: The Antenna Element is a "Flat-Thin-Loop" that is
Physically 100 Ft Long and Electrically 200 Ft Out-and-Back.


iane ~ RHF
..
..
= = = AV
= = = wrote in message ...

Dave wrote:

It is a metal fence. Chain-link.
I didn't think that was a very likely answer to my problems.

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

I'd be curious as to why running a wire along a metal fence would
be such a problem. I just ran about 200 feet of wire along the top
of a wire fence (2 inch square openings), albeit the type that is
covered with some green vinyl. And I have noticed CONSIDERABLE
improvement in reception. Wouldn't attaching to so much metal just
help to expand the range of the antenna ?

Also, related to the metal fence thing: what would happen were
I to attach a wire to my metal roof?

And as long as we're on the subject of random wire, what's the
deal with needing "stranded" wire. I had about 100 feet of that
first, and then when I went to buy some more all they had was
single strand, so I bought that and just added that to the end
of the stranded. what's the importance/need of using stranded?

av

..

Tony Meloche wrote:

CW wrote:

I won't go into detail but the broomstick (or any helicaly wound antenna)
gives up performance for size. The straiter the wire, the better off you
are. If you have the space, just stretch it out strait.

snip If you can tuck a one-meter broomstick into
your car somewhere for traveling, you've got the world
by the butt for shortwave listening away from home. But at home - your
"permanent space" - go with a random or longwire, if you possibly can.

Tony


For portable use, I've found the AT-271/A antenna designed for the PRC-25 or PRC-77 works quite well. It's about 10' long, and it's set up like the supports used for dome tents - to take it down - you pull the sections apart (they have a chain/shock cord
running through them) and fold them for storage.

I got it he http://www.american-milspec.com/c765.html

Unfortunately, it's just a hair too long to fit inside the aluminum attaché case I transport my 7030 in.

Personally, I think I'd use a slinky over a broom stick. More compact for travel, and if you have more room, you can spread it out.




"Dave" wrote in message
...
I just got through picking up a ton of discontinued wire from my local
Home
Depot, and was planning on building a "broomstick" antenna like some I
found
described on the net. Got a question though: doesn't "stretching out" the
coil to a meter or more reduce the inductance of the resulting coil? Why
wouldn't it work better to just leave it on the spool? I was under the
impression that the formula for calculating the inductance for a given
coil
involved multiplying the square of the number of coils by the ratio of the
coil width to length. Wouldn't this mean that a "longer" coil would have
a
lower inductance than a "shorter" coil, given the same length of wire and
approximate diameter of coils?

Forgive me if I'm being stupid here, it has been twenty years since I have
attempted anything like this, but that was what I thought.

The main account I am thinking of was related by someone in Saudi Arabia
who
wrapped 1.2 kM of wire around a piece of PVC and vastly improved their
reception of WWV in the states. I was going to do something similar, and
then looked at the two spools of wire that I was about to unwrap. They
are
already coils, so shouldn't I be able to just hook them up to an aligator
clip and stick this to my whip antenna? (I am now thinking about taking
the
wire off of the smaller spool and adding it to the larger. Shouldn't that
work?) And if I leave the wire on the spools (which are plastic) couldn't
I
turn them toward or away from the station of interest to further improve
reception? (I could even put this in my attic, gaining a few feet of
elevation and hiding it from my unappreciative wife.)

Any input on any part of this idea is more than welcome. I would greaty
value the opinions of those who have actually done something like one of
these two options.

Thanks,

Dave




----== Posted via Newsfeed.Com - Unlimited-Uncensored-Secure Usenet News==----
http://www.newsfeed.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! 100,000 Newsgroups
---= 19 East/West-Coast Specialized Servers - Total Privacy via Encryption =---

TM,

Good Accessment of the BroomStick Antenna.

iane ~ RHF
..
..
= = = Tony Meloche
= = = wrote in message ...
CW wrote:

I won't go into detail but the broomstick (or any helicaly wound antenna)
gives up performance for size. The straiter the wire, the better off you
are. If you have the space, just stretch it out strait.


Experimentation and experience have taught me that this is
basically correct. "Broomstick" antennas give pretty good performance
in a very compact space - they are even (marginally) "portable". But
for signal-pulling ability, they'll never beat a well-thought-out
longwire or randomwire. If you can tuck a one-meter broomstick into
your car somewhere for traveling, you've got the world
by the butt for shortwave listening away from home. But at home - your
"permanent space" - go with a random or longwire, if you possibly can.

Tony

..