"w_tom" wrote in message
...
running dogg demonstrates why these pictures of the 'primary
protection' system require inspection:
http://www.tvtower.com/fpl.html

A household earth ground (another earth ground) is essential
also for human safety. The neutral wire failed inside a
transformer. Building's earth ground had been compromised.
But since the lights still worked, the homeowner did nothing.
To transport electricity back to the defective transformer,
the house use a natural gas line. Fortunately no one was home
when gas line gaskets finally failed at the meter; the house
exploded.

If that doesn't souind like an urban myth....


Many say lights work just fine. Therefore, don't worry. Be
happy. Even the military calls for inspections of these
grounding connections every 5 years or sooner. A homeowner
must take responsibility for his ground connections. The
consequences sometimes can be catastrophic as demonstrated by
multiple examples.

running dogg wrote:
... My grandfather once lived in a rural area where the power
poles didn't have grounds. When lightning hit the pole, foot
long flames came out of the sockets. It ruined everything
electrical, and he had to rewire his house several times, but
it didn't burn down.

FDR wrote:


"w_tom" wrote in message
...
running dogg demonstrates why these pictures of the 'primary
protection' system require inspection:
http://www.tvtower.com/fpl.html

A household earth ground (another earth ground) is essential
also for human safety. The neutral wire failed inside a
transformer. Building's earth ground had been compromised.
But since the lights still worked, the homeowner did nothing.
To transport electricity back to the defective transformer,
the house use a natural gas line. Fortunately no one was home
when gas line gaskets finally failed at the meter; the house
exploded.

If that doesn't souind like an urban myth....

Yeah, it does to me too. I doubt that electricity would be transported
back to a transformer via natural gas line. Natural gas is awfully
volatile. Also, if the neutral wire INSIDE one of those huge oil filled
transformers up on a pole failed, how would the homeowner know, much
less act? I suppose that an arcing transformer would cause horrible SW
interference (not sure about MW) but most people don't have SW radios.
In that case only a local SWL or ham would notice.

All new construction around here requires 400 amp household grounds
built into the foundation. Typically the special ground rod is simply
stuck into the concrete. I think it should be actually buried in the
earth, but apparently that's not necessary. Fortunately lightning storms
are rare here, and when they DO happen they're rarely on the scale seen
in Florida. (I never understood why people think Florida is paradise;
they have some NASTY weather there and some really, really bad urban
ghettoes.)



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The investigator was a personal friend who we stumbled upon
as he was returning from the exploded house. He immediately
explained what had happened - the broken neutral wire inside
transformer and no building earth ground. It was one of
those, "Of course. I never realized that could happen."
moments. As it would when one is familiar with 'how and why'
buildings and utilities are earthed.

Another event created by a missing earth ground was
continuous ringing of telephones in some adjacent homes. The
offending home was not properly earthed. That house used
other utility wires as a neutral wire. The emergency response
guy borrowed infrared goggles from the fire department to
follow a cable TV wire. Wire was so hot that he could follow
that wire behind walls with infrared goggles.

Basic knowledge of how utilities connect make it obvious
that electricity could use gas lines (or other conductive
materials) as a neutral return - given a failure in the right
spot AND no building earth ground. Feel all you want. But
earth ground is essential for human safety as well as for
other reasons. Facts remain electrical. Feeling has no place
here. Either one can say specifically why that gas line was
not used as a neutral return - or one does not have sufficient
knowledge to respond. Feelings are not sufficient. A
doubting response must be able to say why - using fundamental
electrical principles. Anything less would be junk science
reasoning.

Homeowners have enough in these two discussions to
appreciate why earth ground is essential to human safety AND
why (and how) that earth ground should be enhanced to provide
transistor safety.

FDR wrote:
"w_tom" wrote in message
...
A household earth ground (another earth ground) is essential
also for human safety. The neutral wire failed inside a
transformer. Building's earth ground had been compromised.
But since the lights still worked, the homeowner did nothing.
To transport electricity back to the defective transformer,
the house use a natural gas line. Fortunately no one was home
when gas line gaskets finally failed at the meter; the house
exploded.

If that doesn't souind like an urban myth....

w_tom wrote:

The investigator was a personal friend who we stumbled upon
as he was returning from the exploded house. He immediately
explained what had happened - the broken neutral wire inside
transformer and no building earth ground. It was one of
those, "Of course. I never realized that could happen."
moments. As it would when one is familiar with 'how and why'
buildings and utilities are earthed.

Another event created by a missing earth ground was
continuous ringing of telephones in some adjacent homes. The
offending home was not properly earthed. That house used
other utility wires as a neutral wire. The emergency response
guy borrowed infrared goggles from the fire department to
follow a cable TV wire. Wire was so hot that he could follow
that wire behind walls with infrared goggles.

Basic knowledge of how utilities connect make it obvious
that electricity could use gas lines (or other conductive
materials) as a neutral return - given a failure in the right
spot AND no building earth ground. Feel all you want. But
earth ground is essential for human safety as well as for
other reasons. Facts remain electrical. Feeling has no place
here. Either one can say specifically why that gas line was
not used as a neutral return - or one does not have sufficient
knowledge to respond. Feelings are not sufficient. A
doubting response must be able to say why - using fundamental
electrical principles. Anything less would be junk science
reasoning.

Homeowners have enough in these two discussions to
appreciate why earth ground is essential to human safety AND
why (and how) that earth ground should be enhanced to provide
transistor safety.

Suddenly we're worried about transistor safety?

dxAce
Michigan
USA

"w_tom" wrote in message
...
The investigator was a personal friend who we stumbled upon
as he was returning from the exploded house. He immediately
explained what had happened - the broken neutral wire inside
transformer and no building earth ground. It was one of
those, "Of course. I never realized that could happen."
moments. As it would when one is familiar with 'how and why'
buildings and utilities are earthed.

I'm sorry, but if the neutral broke then there could be no return current
for the single phase legs. Power would go out at the house.




Another event created by a missing earth ground was
continuous ringing of telephones in some adjacent homes. The
offending home was not properly earthed. That house used
other utility wires as a neutral wire. The emergency response
guy borrowed infrared goggles from the fire department to
follow a cable TV wire. Wire was so hot that he could follow
that wire behind walls with infrared goggles.

Basic knowledge of how utilities connect make it obvious
that electricity could use gas lines (or other conductive
materials) as a neutral return - given a failure in the right
spot AND no building earth ground. Feel all you want. But
earth ground is essential for human safety as well as for
other reasons. Facts remain electrical. Feeling has no place
here. Either one can say specifically why that gas line was
not used as a neutral return - or one does not have sufficient
knowledge to respond. Feelings are not sufficient. A
doubting response must be able to say why - using fundamental
electrical principles. Anything less would be junk science
reasoning.

Homeowners have enough in these two discussions to
appreciate why earth ground is essential to human safety AND
why (and how) that earth ground should be enhanced to provide
transistor safety.

FDR wrote:
"w_tom" wrote in message
...
A household earth ground (another earth ground) is essential
also for human safety. The neutral wire failed inside a
transformer. Building's earth ground had been compromised.
But since the lights still worked, the homeowner did nothing.
To transport electricity back to the defective transformer,
the house use a natural gas line. Fortunately no one was home
when gas line gaskets finally failed at the meter; the house
exploded.

If that doesn't souind like an urban myth....

FDR wrote:
"w_tom" wrote in message
...

The investigator was a personal friend who we stumbled upon
as he was returning from the exploded house. He immediately
explained what had happened - the broken neutral wire inside
transformer and no building earth ground. It was one of
those, "Of course. I never realized that could happen."
moments. As it would when one is familiar with 'how and why'
buildings and utilities are earthed.


I'm sorry, but if the neutral broke then there could be no return current
for the single phase legs. Power would go out at the house.



Only if all the devices are one a single phase.

With an open neutral there is still 240 volts available at the
structure. If the load on each phase is relatively balanced, the error
may go unnoticed. If an alternate ground path exists for the neutral
things may appear normal until it fails. The current in the neutral can
be much lower than either of the phases.

Craigm

"craigm" wrote in message
...
FDR wrote:
"w_tom" wrote in message
...

The investigator was a personal friend who we stumbled upon
as he was returning from the exploded house. He immediately
explained what had happened - the broken neutral wire inside
transformer and no building earth ground. It was one of
those, "Of course. I never realized that could happen."
moments. As it would when one is familiar with 'how and why'
buildings and utilities are earthed.


I'm sorry, but if the neutral broke then there could be no return current
for the single phase legs. Power would go out at the house.



Only if all the devices are one a single phase.

With an open neutral there is still 240 volts available at the structure.

Yep.

If the load on each phase is relatively balanced, the error may go
unnoticed.

First, how likely is that?


Secondly, I still don't get how the current on the one phase makes a return
path if the neutral is disconnected.


I know it's AC, but what's being described is like disconnecting one of the
leads to a battery. Maybe somebody can better describe the term 'broken
neutral wire'.


If an alternate ground path exists for the neutral things may appear
normal until it fails.

What alternate path? The wire is broken supposedly so there can never be a
return path.

The current in the neutral can be much lower than either of the phases.

How do you reconcile that with Kirchoff's laws?


Craigm

Secondly, I still don't get how the current on the one phase makes a return
path if the neutral is disconnected.

I know it's AC, but what's being described is like disconnecting one of the
leads to a battery. Maybe somebody can better describe the term 'broken
neutral wire'.

The 120V service in your house is between one of the hot legs of the
line from the pole and ground. If you look inside your breaker panel,
you'll see that the neutral from the pole, the white "neutrals" from all
the branch circuits, and the bare copper or green-jacketed "ground"
wires from the branches are all bonded together and to a grounding
electrode driven in your yard somewhere. So, assuming there is still
power at the hot legs of the service from the pole, there will still be
120V from either leg to ground. It'll just be the ground at the
electrode in your yard rather than the ground at the transformer on the
pole.

"Brian Running" wrote in message
m...
Secondly, I still don't get how the current on the one phase makes a
return path if the neutral is disconnected.

I know it's AC, but what's being described is like disconnecting one of
the leads to a battery. Maybe somebody can better describe the term
'broken neutral wire'.

The 120V service in your house is between one of the hot legs of the line
from the pole and ground. If you look inside your breaker panel, you'll
see that the neutral from the pole, the white "neutrals" from all the
branch circuits, and the bare copper or green-jacketed "ground" wires from
the branches are all bonded together and to a grounding electrode driven
in your yard somewhere. So, assuming there is still power at the hot legs
of the service from the pole, there will still be 120V from either leg to
ground. It'll just be the ground at the electrode in your yard rather
than the ground at the transformer on the pole.

Still, if the neutral is broken at the transformer, you still don't have a
return path.

"FDR" wrote:

I'm sorry, but if the neutral broke then there could be no return
current
for the single phase legs. Power would go out at the house.
-----------------------------
Sorry but that is not true.
15 years ago the neutral failed at the transformer and our aAC was
cycling
up dan down smoething wierd. My low voltage alarm tripped, and woke us
up. I killed the breakers and called the utility.

The other 3 homes had damge to their refridgerator and heat pump
compressors. Motors don't like AC that runs from near 0 to well over
normal.

Terry