Dan wrote:

- But Counterweight sounds better.


Depends if your prefer weight to poise. 'Weight' is certainly manlier...




mike

Lucky wrote:

Hi guys!

I live on the 23rd floor of a building so I can't use the earth
directly for the ground.
The options in my "radio room" are the ground from the electrical
sockets and that's about it.

I've heard I can roll out 10ft of tin foil on the floor as a ground
{that's out}, or, use the window frames as a good ground. As far as I
can tell, the window frame looks to be aluminum or some sort of alloy.

Have any of you heard of using a window frame as a ground? I think I
read it in this NG that someone recommended it and was using it for
his ground. I've been using the ground from an electrical outlet.

But being that so many people live in the building that use
appliances and other plugged in items all day and night, I sometimes
get what seems like bad feedback affecting the receiver.

So what do you think of the window frame for the ground then? I
welcome any other options I can use in a room very far from a direct
earth ground. The bathroom pipes are all the way across the room
separated by a wall. Not easy to get to.

Thanks for any help
Lucky

hi, at that height the metal window frame makes a good
antenna, but not a ground. use the electical outlet ground for
a ground potential

m II wrote:

Dan wrote:

- But Counterweight sounds better.


Depends if your prefer weight to poise. 'Weight' is certainly manlier...

mike


RF is weightless! ;-)

--
Former professional electron wrangler.

Michael A. Terrell
Central Florida

Again what about built up static?

Static is rf just like any other signal...When you
listen to lightning crashes, you are listening to
lightning "radio". Now, if you actually have static
build up on the antenna, IE from dry weather, etc,
you can always add a resister, etc to bleed it off.
But hear in TX, I never bother. It's not an issue here.

Where does it go then?

Where does any other signal go?


I usually switch
between my 2 antennas to see what brings the frequency in better, the
random
wire or the dipole. So I don't stay with one fixed antenna all the
time. A
ground would still not be needed then?

No.

So I take it most of you not transmitting are not grounded?

Well, many do I'm sure, but I don't. I don't use an rf ground to
my shack at all. I don't need one. You have basically three
types of grounds. The safety ground, the rf ground for the antenna,
and the lightning protection ground. Many times the last two
are combined. Your power line ground is the "safety ground".
You only need a safety ground in the shack, if your radio, etc
requires one. If it does require one, it usually will have a third
grounding pin on the plug. Many radios do not need a safety
ground. Actually these days, *most* radios do not require a
safety ground. IE: look at a TV...Do you see a ground pin on the
plug? Thats what I thought....
Then you have the RF ground for the antenna. Normally, it should
be at or under the antenna, *if* the antenna requires it to complete
the antenna. IE: vertical monopoles, etc... If you use a random wire,
and ground the shield, it's best to do that outside at the base of
the antenna. This assumes a coax feed... On the 24th floor,
you will never be able to get a decent RF ground that won't act
as an antenna, so thats really your only option. Otherwise, if just
a random wire to the radio, I wouldn't bother.
If you use a dipole, or other antenna that is complete in itself,
there is absolutely no need for an rf ground at the antenna, or
the radio. Nada, none, zilch. This is the way I operate. All my
antennas are complete, or have rf grounds under them.
The lightning ground is purely to direct the strike to ground, and
maybe protect the radio, if you want to go that far. There are
plenty of threads covering that hornets nest, so you can research
that on your own.
The lightning ground, I *do* use...But...It's all outside...Has nothing
to do with my shack.
Grounding is pretty complicated, per the reason/s, and is probably
one of the most "wives tales" loaded topics you can find.
Inside a 24 th floor highrise, you don't need to worry about static
buildup...If you did, probably half the electronics stuff in the place
would be toast by now...As far as listening, and static noise, there
may
well be nothing you can do about it, other than using a coax fed
antenna that is outside, and away from the noise source, assuming
that source is inside with you.
MK

ryan wiehle wrote in message ...
Lucky wrote:

Hi guys!

I live on the 23rd floor of a building so I can't use the earth
directly for the ground.
The options in my "radio room" are the ground from the electrical
sockets and that's about it.

I've heard I can roll out 10ft of tin foil on the floor as a ground
{that's out}, or, use the window frames as a good ground. As far as I
can tell, the window frame looks to be aluminum or some sort of alloy.

Have any of you heard of using a window frame as a ground? I think I
read it in this NG that someone recommended it and was using it for
his ground. I've been using the ground from an electrical outlet.

But being that so many people live in the building that use
appliances and other plugged in items all day and night, I sometimes
get what seems like bad feedback affecting the receiver.

So what do you think of the window frame for the ground then? I
welcome any other options I can use in a room very far from a direct
earth ground. The bathroom pipes are all the way across the room
separated by a wall. Not easy to get to.

Thanks for any help
Lucky

hi, at that height the metal window frame makes a good
antenna, but not a ground. use the electical outlet ground for
a ground potential

Hi Ryan.

You hit that right on the head. One of the other posters stated the window
frame would make an antenna NOT a ground.
So I decided to try it as one. I connected the wire to the antenna terminal
on the R75 from the ground.

I couldn't believe it!
What a good antenna it made. Most of the time the S-Meter was peaking higher
with it then the dipole. Even though the noise floor was increased in some
cases, the signal was much more loud, clear and audible.

In a couple cases I needed to turn on the pre amp to hear the signal with
the dipole but with the window frame antenna it didn't need it at all! Yes
I realize that certain size dipoles will limit some frequencies it's not
perfected for, but this setup brought in better signals across the board
most of the time. Of course there was few frequencies it just was terrible
at.

Now if you use the R75's options, you can remove most of that extra noise.
I'd rather have a audible signal that I can listen to with some noise then
one so weak you can't interpret what is being said.

So I would say this ground experimentation exposed a pretty decent optional
antenna! Being up so high makes that frame a real signal magnet. What a
great find for someone who can't put up outside antennas or perhaps would
get better results then what they are using now.

So what kind of antenna do you think this rectangle aluminum frame makes?
What could it be compared to?

As for the electrical ground, I realize it's more of a "safety" ground then
a RF ground as one poster pointed out. So by using the electrical sockets
ground, what am I actually grounding? The radio itself, the antennas or
both? I'm figuring just the radio from lightning strikes or static?

Thanks
Lucky

wrote in message
oups.com...
Again what about built up static?

Static is rf just like any other signal...When you
listen to lightning crashes, you are listening to
lightning "radio". Now, if you actually have static
build up on the antenna, IE from dry weather, etc,
you can always add a resister, etc to bleed it off.
But hear in TX, I never bother. It's not an issue here.

Where does it go then?

Where does any other signal go?


I usually switch
between my 2 antennas to see what brings the frequency in better, the
random
wire or the dipole. So I don't stay with one fixed antenna all the
time. A
ground would still not be needed then?

No.

So I take it most of you not transmitting are not grounded?

Well, many do I'm sure, but I don't. I don't use an rf ground to
my shack at all. I don't need one. You have basically three
types of grounds. The safety ground, the rf ground for the antenna,
and the lightning protection ground. Many times the last two
are combined. Your power line ground is the "safety ground".
You only need a safety ground in the shack, if your radio, etc
requires one. If it does require one, it usually will have a third
grounding pin on the plug. Many radios do not need a safety
ground. Actually these days, *most* radios do not require a
safety ground. IE: look at a TV...Do you see a ground pin on the
plug? Thats what I thought....
Then you have the RF ground for the antenna. Normally, it should
be at or under the antenna, *if* the antenna requires it to complete
the antenna. IE: vertical monopoles, etc... If you use a random wire,
and ground the shield, it's best to do that outside at the base of
the antenna. This assumes a coax feed... On the 24th floor,
you will never be able to get a decent RF ground that won't act
as an antenna, so thats really your only option. Otherwise, if just
a random wire to the radio, I wouldn't bother.
If you use a dipole, or other antenna that is complete in itself,
there is absolutely no need for an rf ground at the antenna, or
the radio. Nada, none, zilch. This is the way I operate. All my
antennas are complete, or have rf grounds under them.
The lightning ground is purely to direct the strike to ground, and
maybe protect the radio, if you want to go that far. There are
plenty of threads covering that hornets nest, so you can research
that on your own.
The lightning ground, I *do* use...But...It's all outside...Has nothing
to do with my shack.
Grounding is pretty complicated, per the reason/s, and is probably
one of the most "wives tales" loaded topics you can find.
Inside a 24 th floor highrise, you don't need to worry about static
buildup...If you did, probably half the electronics stuff in the place
would be toast by now...As far as listening, and static noise, there
may
well be nothing you can do about it, other than using a coax fed
antenna that is outside, and away from the noise source, assuming
that source is inside with you.
MK


Hi MK

You gave me a good explanation of how grounding can be classified. What a
great post for me, thank you very much. It even answered the questions later
in the post I had in my mind from reading the first parts!

I always thought a ground was a ground and it had basically only one
function:
To protect the radio from damage, lower the noise floor and making a
complete "radio circuit"

So why do these radio manufacturers put grounds on their receivers even when
the plug is not 3 prong?

I feel better now. I see grounding is not such a 'must have' item. I use a
surge protector and it's fused and grounded already since it's 3 prong. I
have all my radio gear and even my Astron hooked up to it. So I am grounded
for safety already. Plus I have all wires fused too.

The dipole and current balun doesn't need a ground, and the random wire is
not coax anymore { I couldn't close my window} so grounding that is out too.
So since I'm not transmitting it looks like I'm covered.

Your post helped me understand all this.

Thanks
Lucky

"Lucky" skrev i en meddelelse
...

So what kind of antenna do you think this rectangle aluminum frame makes?
What could it be compared to?


It would be some strange sort of untuned loop antenna. Actually you could
take a look at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Shortwave-SWL-Antenna/ - a guy
from Finland (Greg W) has made use of a window frame as well. He made a
small (6") pickup loop from coax cable and uses this with excellent results
from 9 to 17 MHz. He has uploaded a video showing the difference between a
random wire and his "loop" - impressive.


--
Anders Henriksen - born without teeth
supermule [at] lite [dot] dk

Whosoever is delighted in solitude, is either a wild beast or a god

"w_tom" wrote in message
...
Do you need an earth ground, or AC electric ground, or just
a big Faraday shield? Even your concrete floor is an earth
ground - depending on electrical characteristics that were not
provided. Without mentioning frequencies or purpose of the
'ground', then all answers will only be speculation based upon
personal assumptions. What are you trying to accomplish?
Noise reduction? Better signal reception? Human safety? All
may be useful or useless reasons for grounding.

Lucky wrote:
I live on the 23rd floor of a building so I can't use the earth
directly for the ground. The options in my "radio room" are the
ground from the electrical sockets and that's about it.

I've heard I can roll out 10ft of tin foil on the floor as a
ground {that's out}, or, use the window frames as a good ground.
As far as I can tell, the window frame looks to be aluminum or
some sort of alloy.

Have any of you heard of using a window frame as a ground? I think
I read it in this NG that someone recommended it and was using it
for his ground. I've been using the ground from an electrical
outlet.

But being that so many people live in the building that use
appliances and other plugged in items all day and night, I
sometimes get what seems like bad feedback affecting the receiver.

So what do you think of the window frame for the ground then? I
welcome any other options I can use in a room very far from a
direct earth ground. The bathroom pipes are all the way across
the room separated by a wall. Not easy to get to.

Hi Tom

I was trying to do the right thing according to manuals and some articles I
read, plus lower the noise floor. I always thought this unwanted "noise,
static, clicks, lightning and other garbage" needed somewhere to go. That
you wanted to provide a path for it so it didn't find it's way to the radios
speaker and then your ears.

I bascially do BCB during the day, some Hams, shortwave programs during the
early night and Hams again later at night.
I live in Florida and like listening to the Southern Hams late at night.
Some stay on very late.

I'm bascially talk programs during the day and all over the night
frequencies at night.
Whatever catches my interest. I even listen to the Liberty net every so
often for fun.

Thanks
Lucky

"Anders Henriksen" wrote in message
. ..

"Lucky" skrev i en meddelelse
...

So what kind of antenna do you think this rectangle aluminum frame makes?
What could it be compared to?


It would be some strange sort of untuned loop antenna. Actually you could
take a look at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Shortwave-SWL-Antenna/ - a
guy
from Finland (Greg W) has made use of a window frame as well. He made a
small (6") pickup loop from coax cable and uses this with excellent
results
from 9 to 17 MHz. He has uploaded a video showing the difference between a
random wire and his "loop" - impressive.


--
Anders Henriksen - born without teeth
supermule [at] lite [dot] dk

Whosoever is delighted in solitude, is either a wild beast or a god



Hi Anders

Wow great idea! Yes I can actually see that working very well. In fact I'm
going to try it. I have a small pickup loop already made too. Thanks a lot
Anders. I'm going to check out his video. Funny how this original ground is
turning out to be something I never expected.

Thank you
Lucky

"Anders Henriksen" wrote in message
. ..

"Lucky" skrev i en meddelelse
...

So what kind of antenna do you think this rectangle aluminum frame makes?
What could it be compared to?


It would be some strange sort of untuned loop antenna. Actually you could
take a look at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Shortwave-SWL-Antenna/ - a
guy
from Finland (Greg W) has made use of a window frame as well. He made a
small (6") pickup loop from coax cable and uses this with excellent
results
from 9 to 17 MHz. He has uploaded a video showing the difference between a
random wire and his "loop" - impressive.


--
Anders Henriksen - born without teeth
supermule [at] lite [dot] dk

Whosoever is delighted in solitude, is either a wild beast or a god



Anders,

I just saw the two videos. Now that is very impressive. It's not even tuned
either from what I can see. My pickup loop is like 6" in length also. Fun
stuff for sure

Lucky