To HELL!!! with them Damn Jews!!!!!,,,,,, I Say,,, Waste Them
All!!!!!!!!!!
cuhulin

In article ,
matt weber wrote:
On Sat, 22 Oct 2005 00:33:19 GMT, (Mark Zenier)
wrote:
Before satellites the Defense Department was able to send several
teletype channels at at time, maritime mobile. That was with a big dish
and probably 10's of kilowatts. (The best description of using that
equipment, that I've seen, was in a description of the incident where the
USS Liberty, the radio intelligence ship, was attacked by the Israelis.
In the Atlantic Monthly about 10-15 years ago, as I remember).

Yes, but that wasn't moonbounce, it was tropo scatter. YOu can only
use Moonbounce when the moon is visible to both ends. Troposcatter
works just about anytime, anywhere. The change in permittivity at the
top of the toposphere will actually bounce a tiny portion of the
microwave signal back down quite reliably. You can get about 600
miles that way. But you need the sort of big dish, and tens of
kilowatts to do it reliably. Only the military could really afford to
use it.

No, the article specifically stated that it was moonbounce and gave a
DOD rig designation, along with a remark that it was unreliable and a pain
to keep running, especially as they had a limited schedule for contact.
(For the radio intelligence ships, the goal would be to get their
intercepts to NSA headquarters at Fort Detrick in Maryland with as few
intermediaries as possilble).

Somewhere else, Monitoring Times I think, there was a description of
a Washington, DC - Pearl Harbor moonbounce link, so it got used
for fixed point connections, too. Given the expense, this sort of
stuff was probably only used by the highest priority traffic in the
DOD teletype network (AUTODIN?). Encrypted up the yazoo and anybody
who knew about it had their lips sewn shut.

Mark Zenier
Googleproofaddress(account:mzenier provider:eskimo domain:com)

On Sun, 23 Oct 2005 08:13:45 GMT, "Frank Dresser"
wrote:


"matt weber" wrote in message
.. .
On Sat, 22 Oct 2005 00:33:19 GMT, (Mark Zenier)
wrote:

[snip]

Before satellites the Defense Department was able to send several
teletype channels at at time, maritime mobile. That was with a big dish
and probably 10's of kilowatts. (The best description of using that
equipment, that I've seen, was in a description of the incident where the
USS Liberty, the radio intelligence ship, was attacked by the Israelis.
In the Atlantic Monthly about 10-15 years ago, as I remember).

Yes, but that wasn't moonbounce, it was tropo scatter. YOu can only
use Moonbounce when the moon is visible to both ends. Troposcatter
works just about anytime, anywhere. The change in permittivity at the
top of the toposphere will actually bounce a tiny portion of the
microwave signal back down quite reliably. You can get about 600
miles that way. But you need the sort of big dish, and tens of
kilowatts to do it reliably. Only the military could really afford to
use it.



The USS Liberty is said to have had moonbounce capability. The moonbounce
antenna is supposed to have been one of the distinctions seperating it from
the Egyptian ship the Isrealis said they thought they were attacking.

The large parabolic antenna in the picture, pointing straight up, seems to
be that moonbounce antenna.

http://www.history.navy.mil/photos/i...00/u123118.jpg

Frank Dresser

Having it pointed straight up is the standard stowed position. At lot
less load on the mounting that way. However it could just as easily be
a tropo scatter antenna, and tropo scatter has the advantage that the
moon doesn't have to visible at both ends of the path.

however it could also have used a communication satellite. I think
only Syncom III was in Geo Syncrhonos orbit at that time, however
there were a number of other sats in LEO and MEO (such as Telstar)
that could have been used, and they would come into view every few
hours and would be usable for 15-30 minutes at a time with a usable
bandwidht of a few MHZ. The Syncom III video wasn't so great, since it
was a 2 Mhz transponder IIRC, and analog Television is 6Mhz.

.. The first Telstar went up in 1962, and I would be indeed surprised
is several Military sats didn't have similar capabilities at that
time. In the fall of 1967 I remember a professor of Meteoroloby at the
University of Wisconsin telling me about a single UHF transponder they
had put on one of the Tiros weather sats in orbit that could be used
(and was used as a voice channel). The roof of the Meteorology
department at UW had a modest steerable corner reflector to use it..
As it was in LEO, it only took about 50 watts on each end.

"matt weber" wrote in message
...
On Sun, 23 Oct 2005 08:13:45 GMT, "Frank Dresser"
wrote:



Having it pointed straight up is the standard stowed position. At lot
less load on the mounting that way. However it could just as easily be
a tropo scatter antenna, and tropo scatter has the advantage that the
moon doesn't have to visible at both ends of the path.

Wouldn't a moonbounce setup, with high power and a steerable antenna, also
have tropo scatter capability? It wouldn't necessarly go the other way,
however. Equipment which works well enough for tropo scatter might not do
the moonbounce job.


however it could also have used a communication satellite. I think
only Syncom III was in Geo Syncrhonos orbit at that time, however
there were a number of other sats in LEO and MEO (such as Telstar)
that could have been used, and they would come into view every few
hours and would be usable for 15-30 minutes at a time with a usable
bandwidht of a few MHZ. The Syncom III video wasn't so great, since it
was a 2 Mhz transponder IIRC, and analog Television is 6Mhz.

. The first Telstar went up in 1962, and I would be indeed surprised
is several Military sats didn't have similar capabilities at that
time. In the fall of 1967 I remember a professor of Meteoroloby at the
University of Wisconsin telling me about a single UHF transponder they
had put on one of the Tiros weather sats in orbit that could be used
(and was used as a voice channel). The roof of the Meteorology
department at UW had a modest steerable corner reflector to use it..
As it was in LEO, it only took about 50 watts on each end.

Again, what works for moonbounce ought to more than meet the standard for
satellite work.

The Liberty was said to have had moonbounce capability. I'd figure they
used that large parabolic antenna for that purpose. There's no obvious
reason they couldn't have used it for the less demanding tasks of tropo
scatter and satellite comms.

Frank Dresser

On Sat, 22 Oct 2005 00:33:19 GMT, (Mark Zenier)
wrote:

In article , SR wrote:
The last few evening the moon was almost full and the evening sky was
fairly clear here in New York. I then transmitted on my CB but no DX
only locals.

I read something somewhere that mention about Moon Bouncing. Meaning
that a signal can travel far. But I am not sure if that is true.

It's a VHF and microwave thing. You actually illuminate the Moon
with enough power that another station back on Earth can pick up
the reflection. But that requires an antenna that can focus most
of your power on the Moon, a target only 1/2 degree across. Hams,
with 1 kilowatt, can get morse code and slow digital signals (on the
higher bands).

Back in the 60s or so, there was a TV program where a panel
was supposed to guess a guest's secret. For one guest, they said that
there was a special condition -- the guest's answer to a question
would be delayed a number of seconds. The secret was that the answer
was being moon-bounced.



Before satellites the Defense Department was able to send several
teletype channels at at time, maritime mobile. That was with a big dish
and probably 10's of kilowatts. (The best description of using that
equipment, that I've seen, was in a description of the incident where the
USS Liberty, the radio intelligence ship, was attacked by the Israelis.
In the Atlantic Monthly about 10-15 years ago, as I remember).

Mark Zenier
Googleproofaddress(account:mzenier provider:eskimo domain:com)

On Sun, 23 Oct 2005 18:25:07 +1000, "Brad" bradvk2qq AT w6ir.com
wrote:


"Frank Dresser" wrote in message
...

The large parabolic antenna in the picture, pointing straight up, seems to
be that moonbounce antenna.

http://www.history.navy.mil/photos/i...00/u123118.jpg

Frank Dresser

You know, that could just be the position the antenna is parked. It might be
a bit of an assumption that the moon is straight up! ;-)

Brad.

Reading closely, you would see that there was no implication
in the previous posting that the antenna was actively in use. Yes, it
may have been parked, under maintenance or so positioned for any
number of other reasons.

What's My Line?,,, tv series.I used to watch that tv program back in the
1950's.I don't know if it ran into the 1960's or not,I was busy in the
Army and other things.
USS Liberty was busy defending itself against those damn Israelies at
one time.It is tough about the Holocaust,but if I had been the prez back
then,Israel would Cease to Exist!!!
cuhulin

Frank Dresser wrote:
Wouldn't a moonbounce setup, with high power and a steerable antenna, also
have tropo scatter capability? It wouldn't necessarly go the other way,
however. Equipment which works well enough for tropo scatter might not do
the moonbounce job.

[snip]

Again, what works for moonbounce ought to more than meet the standard for
satellite work.

The Liberty was said to have had moonbounce capability. I'd figure they
used that large parabolic antenna for that purpose. There's no obvious
reason they couldn't have used it for the less demanding tasks of tropo
scatter and satellite comms.

According to the usslibertyinquiry.com website (which has been off-line
lately), the Liberty did have moonbounce (aka: TRSSCOM) capablity. The
system consisted of an S band transmitter and receiver, and 16'
parabolic reflector antenna. The antenna was steerable. Also on
Liberty was a 10' parabolic antenna, on the forecastle. This was used
for satellite "communications research" and other SHF intercept work --
part of the SRR-20 multichannel receiver and recording system.

There is a bunch of reference information on the usslibertyinquiry.com
forum about Liberty's intercept and communications systems. But for
the past month the site has been down for maintenance. So, I'm unable
to point you to the place where I got the above info.

I Am Saying it Again,,, If I had ben the prez when Israel attacked USS
Liberty,,, Israel would be long lost History!!! Those peckerheads Would
NOT!!!!! Exist NOW!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I Would Have
NUKED those Isralies OFF the face of this Earth!!!!!!!!!!
cuhulin

wrote:
I Am Saying it Again,,, [snip]

Interference on this channel seems quite bad.