CBS/Infinity and IBOC-AM?
 

Well, this is all very interesting. I'm just wondering as I'm not that
up on HD radio anyways a couple of things:

First of all, if AM is mostly talk - as it is now -- what is the audio
difference offered by HD?

And secondly, if the stations are using parts of other band widths to
pull this off -- at least in populated markets - like LA, Chicago and
New York -- isn't HD going to be a nightmare for the FCC. It was bad
enough just trying to protect AM Clear Channel stations when the sun
goes down. How on earth will the FCC ever be able to govern all of
this - not mention the engineering nightmare it will cause?? But then
I'm not an engineer, maybe it's not as bad as it seems.

CBS/Infinity and IBOC-AM?
 

Well, thanks for that summary. That was quite insightful. If you can
actually get better AM reception wtih HD or IBOC then it would be a
great addition to AM radio. Personally, it seems somehow scareligous
to listen to XM or Sirius. I just miss the commercial aspect of radio.
So, anything to keep AM/FM viable would be great. Do you mean by
fidelity sister stations that they can actually run separate
programming -- we have a station near me that broadcasts on like 94.7
and then also has a second transmitter located nearby that broadcast on
94.9 - but they are the same programming sounds.

Thanks for your insight.

CBS/Infinity and IBOC-AM?
 

"Kristoff Bonne" wrote in message
...
Gegroet,


Frank Dresser schreef:

Yes, but we at rec.radio.shortwave celebrate conspiracy theories and
Hidden
Knowledge. So, would it be impossible to develop a new generation of
IBOC-AM which would have independent programming on the digital
sidebands?

AFAIK, the standards say that -when the signal-quality of the digital
signal drops to low- the radio should switch back to analog.
There seams to have done quite some effort to keep the analog and
digitale signals syncronous.

This means that the analog and digital audio-channels must be the same.
(this of course does not apply to any additional digital channel).

Right. But I'm wondering what the technical limits of the IBOC scheme are.
Are the digital sidebands the same, and, if so, must they remain the same?
I'd assume a current IBOC radio would ignore digital sidebands differently
encoded and fall back into AM mode. So, I'd think independent programming,
even pay programming, isn't out of the question.



From what I understand, IBOC was developed because the US broadcasters
did not like DAB/eureka for a number of reasons; one of them being "it
did not fit the current business model"; so that why they opted for a
system that allowed for as less as possibe new content and where the
digital channel is contenwise the same as the analog channel, only with
better audio-quality; and -therefor- influence the current situation in
the radio-market as less as possible.

The funny thing is that -with nationwide satellite-radio and podcasting-
the radio-market is changing anyway.


Also, when the presumed analog phase-out is completed, will the channels
be
restored to the old standard, or will the broadcasters have to find
something to do with all that redundant bandwidth?

Depends on the legislation. If it has proven to have worked OK for I
don't know how many years (during the switch-over) why go back to the
old bandplan?

That is exactly what I'd expect.


A fully-digital frequeny-slot in band II (400 Khz) does allow for -say-
3 to 4 radio-channels at as-good audioquality as current FM; why go back
to just one channel.
Radio-stations will probably be interested in these new channels to
compete with XM, sirius, podcasting, (perhaps) DVB-H, etc. etc.


Frank Dresser
Cheerio! Kr. Bonne.

I'm looking at the IBOC plans from a radio hobbyist's perspective. DXing is
degraded by the wider channel, especially since it's filled with digital
noise. And I have a hard time believing there's a great unfilled demand for
better sounding AM radios. If there were such a demand, the better radios
which are available right now would be better sellers. But people are happy
buying cheap AM radios with bad sound. I just don't believe that there's
some huge profitable market for better sounding AM radios, even if they work
with some fancy new modulation scheme.

More than that, there's little historical reason to think most people want
better sound. The Hi-Fi AM experiments of the late 30s and 40s didn't
trigger a large demand for great sounding radios. FM foundered from the
late forties to the seventies. AM stereo erupted with great fanfare and is
now almost entirely gone. People are actually trading their good quality
landline phones for Satan's garbley invention, the cellphone.

So, it might seem that the people who are actively promoting IBOC are either
risk-takers, stupid or have a hidden backup plan in the case that "HD radio"
somehow doesn't manage to open up enough wallets.

Frank Dresser

CBS/Infinity and IBOC-AM?
 

wrote:
First of all, if AM is mostly talk - as it is now -- what is the audio
difference offered by HD?

Less noise, for the most part. We have three (3-1/2, if you count NPR)
FM talk stations here in the Nashville market, all of which are a lot
less fatuiging to listen to than WLAC-AM...

And secondly, if the stations are using parts of other band widths to
pull this off -- at least in populated markets - like LA, Chicago and
New York -- isn't HD going to be a nightmare for the FCC. It was bad
enough just trying to protect AM Clear Channel stations when the sun
goes down. How on earth will the FCC ever be able to govern all of
this - not mention the engineering nightmare it will cause?? But then
I'm not an engineer, maybe it's not as bad as it seems.

Before HD is allowed on AM at night, the FCC will have to decide that
they *won't* protect AM clear-channel stations when the sun goes down.
That those stations will be protected within their "primary" coverage
areas (essentially, within their metropolitan areas) but not within the
skywave "secondary" coverage area.

I find it interesting that this decision has not yet been made. I'll
bet there have been some *interesting* discussions in Washington.
(engineers vs. lobbyists) Widespread deployment of AM IBOC will create
enormous "white areas" where no nighttime AM reception is possible.
Most of these areas will also be losing some (but by no means all)
existing FM service due to FM IBOC.

If you like listening to stations more than 20 miles away, I suppose
it's time to start looking at XM...
--
Doug Smith W9WI
Pleasant View (Nashville), TN EM66
http://www.w9wi.com

CBS/Infinity and IBOC-AM?
 

Kristoff Bonne wrote:

Gegroet,

dxAce schreef:
Hey, english is my thirth language. Perhaps can we continue this
discussion in dutch, french or german if you want.

No matter what language, you'll still be talking out your ass.
DRM = QRM

I'll translate that to "no, I don't speak any language other then
english and I'll just repeat my matra so to hide the fact I don't know
what else to say".
:-)

QRM knows no language, 'tard boy. Get with the program.

DRM = QRM

dxAce
Michigan
USA

CBS/Infinity and IBOC-AM?
 

dxAce schreef (wrote):

No matter what language, you'll still be talking out your ass.

Kristoff Bonne wrote:

I'll translate that to "no, I don't speak any language other then
english and I'll just repeat my matra so to hide the fact I don't
know what else to say".

Very perceptive observation...once he's gone through " 'tard boy",
"****stain" and "dumb Canucky", he's pretty much exhausted his grasp of
the language...

Kristoff Bonne wrote:

And you can post "DRM = QRM" or "'tart boy" as much as you like;
this will not change the situation.

There's a new one... tart boy...

Hey, english is my thirth language. Perhaps can we coninue this
discussion in dutch, french or german if you want.

Well, I see you've met our village idiot...er, International Goodwill
Ambassador.

In the last few days, he's insulted people from at least four countries
(in addition to the U.S. of course)

He seems to ridicule those whose second (or third) language is
English and ridicule various foreign countries and yet his hobby is
supposedly listening to foreign countries.

LOL at the spectacular irony!

Whatta hypocrite!!

It's best to just let him get back to being a cry baby about DRM and
anyone whose views differ from his...

Happy New Year to all!!

The Whore House Years (was: CBS/Infinity and IBOC-AM?)
 

CBS/Infinity and IBOC-AM?
 

"Carter, K8VT" wrote:

dxAce schreef (wrote):

No matter what language, you'll still be talking out your ass.

Kristoff Bonne wrote:

I'll translate that to "no, I don't speak any language other then
english and I'll just repeat my matra so to hide the fact I don't
know what else to say".

Very perceptive observation...once he's gone through " 'tard boy",
"****stain" and "dumb Canucky", he's pretty much exhausted his grasp of
the language...

Kristoff Bonne wrote:

And you can post "DRM = QRM" or "'tart boy" as much as you like;
this will not change the situation.

There's a new one... tart boy...

Hey, english is my thirth language. Perhaps can we coninue this
discussion in dutch, french or german if you want.

Well, I see you've met our village idiot...er, International Goodwill
Ambassador.

In the last few days, he's insulted people from at least four countries
(in addition to the U.S. of course)

He seems to ridicule those whose second (or third) language is
English and ridicule various foreign countries and yet his hobby is
supposedly listening to foreign countries.

LOL at the spectacular irony!

Whatta hypocrite!!

It's best to just let him get back to being a cry baby about DRM and
anyone whose views differ from his...

There's no cry baby better than you, Grabowski!

LMFAO at the stupid Liberal 'tard yet again.

dxAce
Michigan
USA

The Whore House Years (was: CBS/Infinity and IBOC-AM?)
 

"Carter, K8VT" wrote:

wrote:

And secondly, if the stations are using parts of other band widths to
pull this off -- at least in populated markets - like LA, Chicago and
New York -- isn't HD going to be a nightmare for the FCC. It was bad
enough just trying to protect AM Clear Channel stations when the sun
goes down. How on earth will the FCC ever be able to govern all of
this - not mention the engineering nightmare it will cause??

Well, a very good observation. How indeed will the FCC govern this?

Sadly, the answer is that they probably won't, just as with BPL (if you
happen to have been following that debate). Engineering and enforcement
of technical standards seems to have taken a back seat to the wishes of
Big Business.

When I heard about BPL and the FCC blatantly dodging the technical
issues, my first thought was that the FCC had been "bought off". Then I
said, "Nah, that's too paranoid. They wouldn't do that".

A bit later I read a book about DuMont, the early TV pioneer, and his
battles with the FCC about VHF vs. UHF and which color TV system to
choose. Well, buried back in Appendix C was an *actual quote* by an FCC
Commissioner back in the 1950s who said "Yeah, we called those the
'Whorehouse years' because everything, including us, was for sale".

Now this from an actual FCC Commissioner back in the days of "Ozzie and
Harriet" and "Leave it to Beaver". If it happened back in those
"innocent" days, do you think it could happen today????

BPL = QRM

dxAce
Michigan
USA

CBS/Infinity and IBOC-AM?
 

I actually have IBOC capability on my home receiver (the Yamaha
RX-V4600). The "mutlicasting" on FM is actually pretty nice since it
allows commercially-untenable formats to be broadcast. Here in
Detroit, we have 9 stations broadcasting "second IBOC" channels. One
(94.7) uses its second IBOC channel to broadcast "deep album rock"
from the 1960's and 70's. Another (105.1) broadcasts classical "pops"
on its second IBOC channel. Another broadcasts "live rock concerts"
on it's second IBOC channel.

The audio quality on the FM IBOC channels is about as good as a 256K
MP3. An analogue FM transmission is capable of MUCH better sound
quality (although only a few stations such as WFMT in Chicago or WQXR
in New York actually broadcast uncompressed FM analogue sound).

The big problem, reception-quality-wise, is that FM IBOC is
unreceivable unless you are in a strong, local reception condition.
For example, there's an NPR station that broadcasts classical music in
Lansing, MI (about 80 miles from me) and I can't pick up their IBOC
signal, even with a yagi directional FM antenna. Their analogue
signal comes in just fine, and my receiver reverts to analogue since
the digital IBOC signal is unreceivable.

As far as AM IBOC goes, Detroit's 950 AM and 910 AM broadcast an IBOC
signal. 950's audio quality was HORRIBLE when it first started up,
with echoey, swishy, digital artifact sound. Now, Ibiquity seems to
have fixed something and 950's signal sounds okay with nice high
frequency reproduction. It sounds about as good as a 64K MP3. 910's
IBOC signal still sounds awful (although it's in stereo).

AM IBOC though does NOT in any way, shape, or form have "FM quality
sound" as Ibiquity's advertising trumpets.

There is an AM stereo station locally (CFCO in Chatham, ON) which
indeed DOES have "audio quality approaching FM" when listened to on a
good AM stereo receiver (I have an AM stereo tuner in my Ford Escape
Hybrid which has the best sound that I've ever heard out of an AM
radio).

As far as "IBOC vs DRM" for "high fidelity AM" broadcasts, since IBOC
"shares" the allotted bandwidth with an analogue signal, it requires
an extremely strong local signal in order to receive it. There is an
AM NPR station in Lansing, MI which is UNRECEIVABLE in IBOC mode from
70 miles away, even using a Kiwa Air Core Loop which brings in the
analogue AM signal 20 dB over S9. In contrast, since DRM does not
share it's bandwidth with an analogue signal, the ability to "DX DRM"
is much greater. I can receive DRM test transmissions with perfect
decoding from stations that are inaudible in analogue mode (Deutsche
Welle and Radio Nederland quite often "switch over" from analogue to
DRM in the midst of a broadcast).

As far as "Eureka DAB" goes, it's deader than a doornail in Canada.
The foppish bureaucrats who were trying to "act European and declare
their independence from the U.S." by implementing DAB in Canada failed
miserably and wasted millions of Canadian tax dollars in the process.
Since most Canadian stations (except the CBC) are dependent on U.S.
advertising, absolutely NONE of them were about to replace AM and FM
with DAB and lose all of the U.S. advertising dollars. I spoke with
an engineer at the local CBC station in Windsor, ON and he didn't even
KNOW that there was still a DAB transmitter operating in Windsor.
The Canadians quietly abandoned their ill-conceived DAB pork-barrel
and have allowed XM and Sirius to begin service in Canada.

The above comments are based on empiricle results from my own
listening and DX'ing experiences using analogue AM Stereo, IBOC, and
DRM receivers.

Fred E. - N8UC
Detroit, MI