Pay me enough money (millions of dollars every year,(the money up front
and in my bank first) and I will advertise anything.Within reason,of
course.
cuhulin

I am the ''expert'' radio dude here.I KNOW what I used to could get on
my old radios many years ago.It is getting to more and more,I get less
and less.Shove iboc up your where the Sun doesn't shine and take them
crooked fed govt B...ards with you too.
cuhulin

My carreer is Life and Living and Loving GOD and Jesus.Only one carreer
here.
cuhulin

I dont believe in ratings at all,,, except when bush's ratings (and all
politicians) are at an all time LOW.

I wonder why that divorced woman in Petal,Mississippi hasen't said
anything to me lately?
cuhulin

Eric F. Richards wrote:
D Peter Maus wrote:

Eric...you seem to be missing the essential point. The advertisers
don't GET the metrics based on a model, the advertisers CREATE the
model, they create the metrics. They create the tool. Not the stations.
Not the consultants. The stations do what they do to make money with
the advertiser's tool.


Oh, I hear what you're saying -- I just don't believe my ears.

An advertiser wants to sell product -- nothing more. He doesn't care
about the media used to do that. He hires someone to do that work for
him, and this is where your so-called "radio expert" like Eduardo
comes in.

Advertisers didn't create Arbitron -- so called "marketing experts"
did.

Fine. Radio *stations* didn't create the model, but the radio
*industry* -- which includes these so-called experts -- did.

Actually, no, it didn't advertising agencies and research bureaus did.

That's why the numbers are SOLD to Radio. In fact, the all the
limitatins on how the numbers are gathered, accessed and used, are
placed on Radio. Advertising agencies have access to the data through a
variety of sources.

Radio didn't create the model. The Radio Industry didn't create the
model. Advertisers and the companies that serve them did.

And Advertisers define the model, and how it's used, according to
their needs.

You said it yourself....advertisers may call the shots, but they do
not have the best interests of Radio at heart. You were exactly correct.
If the model were created by or for RADIO, it would benefit RADIO. It
doesn't. It benefits ONLY advertisers.




If Ace Hardware wants to buy time on the local station, the manager of
Ace doesn't go look up Arbitron figures -- he (rightfully) calls a
specialist -- an agency that deals with radio in the (wrongful)
expectation that they'll know what they are talking about.




Actually, if Ace Hardware wants to buy time on a local station, they
get the numbers from their in-house agency at the regional or national
level. The strategy is devised, the budget is created, and the buy is
defined: which stations, which dayparts, how many spots, what they're
going to pay for them, and how they rotate. THEN, they call the
stations and tell the stations how the buy is going to be placed, and
how the money is going to be allocated, and what value added they expect
for free in return for considering them on the buy.

The station is actually, when you look at the whole picture, only
laterally involved.

It's the advertisers who create the demand, the terms, the
specifications, and the meaningfulness of the numbers.

And if you think that agencies have a warm fuzzy relationship with
Radio, guess again. Agencies have a Hate-Hate relationship with Radio
stations, and treat radio people with the kind of contempt generally
reserved for herpes ridden ex-lawyers working at used car lots.

"David Eduardo" wrote:


"Eric F. Richards" wrote in message
...
"David Eduardo" wrote:


I found the station so lacking in memorability I could not "click" on the
call letters alone.

It wouldn't have anything to do with the fact that they never used
their call letters for anything other than the required station ID?

When you posted the on air name, I did remember it as
being atrocious and well worth changing to WMJI, which has a multi decade
history of being a fine, personality, fun radio station.

M-105 was always in a tight race with WMMS for listeners.

So, suddenly, when it is convenient, you believe in ratings.


I suspect that 25 years ago, they more closely reflected reality.


Who cares? It was a losing station. It had to change format, it lost so bad.
Radio is flexible that way... a format that does not work can be change,
literally, in hours.

I know a thing about format changes. But it wasn't a losing station.
It was successful, which is why it was *bought* and *changed* so it
wouldn't compete with WMMS.

WMMS was quite successful too, but only in promoting Peter's "3 foot
King Kong" myth. They overcompressed; everything above 8kHz was
noise. But they were THE HOME OF THE BUZZARD and had cool giveaways.

Those things do impress a 15 year old kid who hasn't got the best
hearing. I knew some of those kids back them -- but they grew up.

And WWWM's low-key approach to music would have -- and did, for some
of them -- appeal to 'em. When they changed ownership, those people
didn't go to WMMS -- they held their nose and went to WGCL/WNCX.

Or, they listened to *me* on the college station.


I am starting to understand you. You are an elitist, believing your taste is
sooooo good it should be emulated by others, while the taste of the masses
is inherently evil. You despise things, not because they are bad, but
because you don't like them and think anyone who does is wrong.

Oooh oooohh! Can I be a fascist, too, or is that exclusively
Pricket's domain?


WMJI is Cleveland's great radio station, and has been for some time. You are
simply unable to accept that it is doing what a lot of people want.

A lot of people want background noise. WMJI supplies that. I do want
content, and WMJI is devoid of that.


To you, success (WMMS, WMJI) are bad. Failure is to be put on a pedestal,
such as WWWM. You are like don Quixote... except that you joust with great
radio stations instead of windmills.

You finally got one thing right: I am a sucker for a lost cause. But
the lost cause in this case is the radio industry. Perhaps in the
future you'll get your due -- your name will be remembered in the
phrase "Eduardo Engineering" -- the process of running a station into
the ground.


I got you pegged. You want things your way, even if you are the only one in
the country who wants it that way.


Again I ask: What does Peter see in you that deserves the slightest
bit of respect? Or is he an elitist, too???

The only thing you got pegged is your own ego-meter.

--
Eric F. Richards

"Failure is not an option. It comes bundled with your Microsoft product."
-Ferenc Mantfeld

Eric F. Richards wrote:
D Peter Maus wrote:

Eric F. Richards wrote:
D Peter Maus wrote:

Eric F. Richards wrote:
"David Eduardo" wrote:

Maybe they _wanted_ to continue to work for the company. If they didn't,
they could have resigned and been hired elsewhere. There are no slaves in US
radio.

Of course. Because everyone knows how easy it is to start a new
career in mid-life.

Idiot.

Actually, I highly recommend it.

I did it. So have most of my colleagues.


...because life as a DJ/"on air talent" had become miserable, right?


Actually, no.


Care to rephrase that?

You have quite a bit of writing on usenet about leaving CBS and
Chicago radio, about boards designed by you and personal equipmentleft
behind that you don't even want to go back to retrieve.

So, please explain Peter: What, exactly, drove you out of radio,
consistent with your past writings?



Being on air wasn't my primary responsibility. In fact, I had
voluntarily hung up my headphones a few years before I left the company.

What drove me out what Radio had become. As I have explained, both
here an elsewhere, I had grown embarrassed by what Radio had become. I
could no longer endorse what I could not support. I had been a quite
vocal opponent to Telecom '96, and had some pretty intense discussions
with manglement about why I would not sign and send in the form letter
distributed through the company to my Congressmen. I refused to endorse
a product that was carrying such a big part of the station's budget,
that it actually got a spot in the station's booth at public events. And
there were other things involving some high level persons that good
taste suggests I not reveal publicly (and as you've probably figured
out, good taste is NOT my strong suit...so that should give you some
ideas of how distasteful these matters are). So rather than live a
double life, I left Radio to be what it has chosen to be, left the
station to be what it has chosen to be and went off to do other things.
Many other things.

It had nothing to do with being miserable. I enjoyed my life in
Radio. Even the abusive program directors and sales ducks didn't
diminish my eagerness to get up in the morning and face the day. But as
time went on, there was less of my life and more Radio than there should
have been for balance. If work exists to fund one's life, then
surrendering one's life to fit in more work is lunacy. But even that
could have been tolerable if it weren't for the internal conflicts.
Having to face myself everyday as a member of a class that I couldn't
endorse.

One day the warning light went on. And I laid down my key and walked
away.

I"ve entertained opportunities since. Some at stations I've enjoyed
listening to in small doses. Actually had a great offer from another
company in town.

I'm just not interested enough to devote what it would take.

It has nothing to do with being miserable. Hell, if I'd been
miserable, it wouldn't have taken so long.

"David Eduardo" wrote in message
. com...

"Michael Lawson" wrote in message
...

"David Eduardo" wrote in message
et...

There is no such facility. Never has been. When out of market
talent
is used
to voice track specific shifts, the only thing sent to the
station
are the
voice "clips" which are sent over a WAN from one digital
workstation
to
another. The clips are played, along with music, local
commercials,
and
whatever else the local station does, in each market.

Sounds to me like you described the scenario
perfectly. It's all run remotely, only minimal
staff is needed at the site to keep things running.

No, the stations are run locally. they play thier own locally
researched
music lists, their own commercials done by thier own local traffic
director,
and are usually live in most dayparts, using voice tracking to do
non-critical dayparts, like overnghts and weekends. One shift may be
done by
a fulltimer in one bigger market, and another by someoen in a
totally
different market. There is no central place wehre formats are
assembled
(except for satellite delivered formats, which run in very small
markets
mostly)

The local station is significantly staffed in every case, with a
manager,
engineering, sales management, traffic, jocks for most shifts
accounting,
promotion and street team, office staff, lots of sellers, etc. Al
most all
commercial production in smaller markets is done locally (in LA, for
4
formats, we have 150 employees... in McAllen, for 2 fomrats, we have
over
40.

However, the net product is remarkably the same
coast to coast, which is part of the problem.

http://www.enquirer.com/editions/200...irs_sound.html

Here's a story on their recent move to a newer
studio around town:

http://www.enquirer.com/editions/200...iz1aclear.html

With 40 studios, one would assume they have lots of live and local
shows,
and lots of local production and imaging to do. This article
dis-prooves
your point. Because Cincy is a large market, they can have each of
thier
talents do voice tracking for another station or two, and send them
out of
that facility. Howeve, to do 4 stations in LA, we have 18 studios
and
production bays, and are building more. we do not do any voice
tracking at
all.

Actually, there are very few live and local shows.
WLW has them, as does 1360 Homer, but outside
of the morning shows (and Jerry Springer on the
Air America outlet), not much is done other than
standard DJ clips.

More stations were voice traced in the 70's than today, as a
percentage of
total stations... we just called it by a different name then.

They had to sell it when Jacor and Clear merged, as it put them
over
the
maximum locl market cap. This happened in about 20 markets, in
fact.

No, it was before then, back when you were
allowed to only own one FM and one AM
station in a market.

So, what is the difference. If two companies combien, and are over
the
limits, they have to sell the excess. That is normal.

Of course, they sold it after
they converted the format to country, so they
wouldn't have any competition.

What prevented the owner from flipping back? Or another station
form
changing? There are no restrictions on format changes in the USA:

The new owners changed it back 3 years later
when the country format wasn't selling. Jacor
tried to buy it then, but was rebuffed. Jacor
then signed a deal to program a small third station
with that station's owners, and programmed
a similar format two the first two stations. The
attrition between the three competing stations
caused the owners of the station that Jacor wanted
gone to change formats and sell the station. Then,
the third station changed format to keep from
drawing listeners from their big rock station.

So? That is competition. Normal. I did the same sort of thing in the
60's
when I would pick up an extra station and use it as a competive tool
to
protect my other stations. There is nothing new about this. It is
like Time
Magazien seeing there was a market for gossip news and not wanting
anyone
else to take the major share, thus launching People.

Normal, yes, but if you were a listener of the losing
station, it was not fun to see your station
blown apart with the only alternative being a
station 50 miles away in another market. Or listen
to WRNO in certain parts of the day via shortwave.

Yeah, I know. Tough potatoes. But if listeners had
as much clout as the arbitron ratings imply, you'd
think that homogeneity wouldn't be the order of
the day.

And they took
the best DJs, too.

Maybe they _wanted_ to continue to work for the company. If they
didn't,
they could have resigned and been hired elsewhere. There are no
slaves in US
radio.

Tsk tsk. There are no slaves anywhere, last
I checked. I presume that like anywhere else
there's a merger, there is a "Black Monday"
when heads roll and some few people are
allowed to keep their job if they join the
new company.

I have been through 3 mergers at one company over the last 12 years.
There
were ZERO firings at the closing. In fact, in each case, the stated
reason
for the merger was to gain access to our people, talent and
experience...
and revenue generating abilities The ones that occasionally get
fired are
the top, top management which is sometimes duplicated. But that is
not that
common either.

Having been in three myself, I've seen the company
doing the buying stating that they want the people,
but then they lay off half of the development staff.
Or, in the most recent case, relocate the jobs to India
and Slovakia, and lay off most of the development
staff.

In a merger, the old company IS hte new company. The two unite; that
is what
"merger" means. Generally, there are no extra people. If both
companies had
stations in the same market, only duplicated positions are sometimes
eliminated, but usually the work load can not be reduced.

Maybe that's the case in radio, but not in a lot of
other cases. I know of a company that I used to
work for who'd use a merger as an excuse
to dump a lot of low performers on the street.

Otherwise, the new owners
might decide to "go in a different direction"
and can the lot of them. Having survived
several Black Mondays myself, you're just
relieved to have a job.

I have never seen a merger or major acquisition in radio where there
was a
wholesale dismissal of people on closing. In fact, most of what is
paid for
a radio staiton is for the intellectual property and billing, and
only about
5% is for plant and facilities. Only when a very bad station is
bought to
totally reformat it would there be a house cleaning, but to have it
happen
at multiple staitons is nearly unheard of. These turnarounds are
exceptions,
where the buyer is only interested in the frequency, not the
billing. An
example would be HBC's LMA/purchase of KSCA in LA, in 1997. The AAA
format
could barely get a 1 share, and the station had been a losing dog
for
decades. It was sold, and went Spanish. All the air staff was let
go, as
well as promotions and copy and such, but that was because the
station was
doing so badly. In most cases, staitons are bought for thier ongoing
value.

I've seen it happen several times in the Cincy area,
the most recent one being the switch of 1530 from
50's-60's easy listening to 50's-60's pop. (It's now
an Air America outlet, with all of those DJ's now
gone, too.) Most of the easy listening DJ's left or
were canned, and a bunch of DJ's who happened
to be available when 103.5 went from 50's-60's pop
to 70's pop joined the station.

Another scenario is when a station decides to go
to a talk format like Air America or the standard
conservative fare of Rush, Hannity and Co. The
DJ's aren't needed, so sayonara to the DJs.

--Mike L.

"Michael Lawson" wrote in message
...

"David Eduardo" wrote in message

The local station is significantly staffed in every case, with a
manager,
engineering, sales management, traffic, jocks for most shifts
accounting,
promotion and street team, office staff, lots of sellers, etc. Al
most all
commercial production in smaller markets is done locally (in LA, for
4
formats, we have 150 employees... in McAllen, for 2 fomrats, we have
over
40.

However, the net product is remarkably the same
coast to coast, which is part of the problem.

So? The hits in America are cosat to coast hits, in most cases. Local
differences are more due to the competitive arrray than any fundamental
difference between regions and zones, so the big AC hits are the same, the
big urban hits are the same, the big CHR and country hits are the same.
Sure, each market has differing ethnicities and lifestyle groups, but the
songs played on a staiton in a specific format are going to be very similar
all over. This goes back decades and decades and decades.
all.

Actually, there are very few live and local shows.
WLW has them, as does 1360 Homer, but outside
of the morning shows (and Jerry Springer on the
Air America outlet), not much is done other than
standard DJ clips.

The "DJ clips" in Cincy are live in most cases. they are just not very long,
and are what the format requires. They are not coming from San Antonioo or
someplace else. they are live in the market. Don't you understand taht,
outside of mornings, FM music listeners do not want talk, they want music?
This is why off-prime shifts can be pre-prepared with voicetraced jocks in
smaller markets.


So? That is competition. Normal. I did the same sort of thing in the
60's
when I would pick up an extra station and use it as a competive tool
to
protect my other stations. There is nothing new about this. It is
like Time
Magazien seeing there was a market for gossip news and not wanting
anyone
else to take the major share, thus launching People.

Normal, yes, but if you were a listener of the losing
station, it was not fun to see your station
blown apart with the only alternative being a
station 50 miles away in another market. Or listen
to WRNO in certain parts of the day via shortwave.

When stations are "blown apart" it means that they were not successful. It
means they were losing money. From the mid-50's through the mid-90's, fully
half of all US radio stations did not make money, you know. Technology and
consolidation have mitigated this situation to some extent, but there are
many bad facilities and many overly-radioed markets where money will not be
made.

Yeah, I know. Tough potatoes. But if listeners had
as much clout as the arbitron ratings imply, you'd
think that homogeneity wouldn't be the order of
the day.

If a station tanks in Arbitron, and stays tanked, it changes format.

Having been in three myself, I've seen the company
doing the buying stating that they want the people,
but then they lay off half of the development staff.
Or, in the most recent case, relocate the jobs to India
and Slovakia, and lay off most of the development
staff.

That is not usual in radio, as it is hard to get those Hungarians and Sikhs
to sepak American English over the WAN to record the voice tracks. Most
radio staff is sales, which is necessarily live and local.

In a merger, the old company IS hte new company. The two unite; that
is what
"merger" means. Generally, there are no extra people. If both
companies had
stations in the same market, only duplicated positions are sometimes
eliminated, but usually the work load can not be reduced.

Maybe that's the case in radio, but not in a lot of
other cases. I know of a company that I used to
work for who'd use a merger as an excuse
to dump a lot of low performers on the street.

We are talking about radio. What you describe is far less prevalent in radio
as radio staitons can not centralize.

I've seen it happen several times in the Cincy area,
the most recent one being the switch of 1530 from
50's-60's easy listening to 50's-60's pop. (It's now
an Air America outlet, with all of those DJ's now
gone, too.) Most of the easy listening DJ's left or
were canned, and a bunch of DJ's who happened
to be available when 103.5 went from 50's-60's pop
to 70's pop joined the station.

This is normal when formats shift. But the formats shift due to the
inability of the existing one to get good ratings. This has been the case
since Top 40 was invented in August of 1952... jocks who get bad ratings get
fired. Stations that get bad ratings change format. In the end, the total
employment does not change much... but the individuals change as the formats
change. All of us in radio knew this when we started in radio. It is, like
all entertainment businesses, inherently volitile. How many TV shows get
cancelled in thier first season? the folks working on them go on to other
shows, or wait tables in Studio City or Burbank.

Another scenario is when a station decides to go
to a talk format like Air America or the standard
conservative fare of Rush, Hannity and Co. The
DJ's aren't needed, so sayonara to the DJs.

It may surprise you to know that DJs are a small percentage of station
staff. there are always more sellers than jocks, and more office staff than
jocks. And many of the behind the scenes jobs continue irrespective of the
format. There is nothing inherently bad about this... it is just part of
being in an entertainment-related business. In TV, the technicians,
accountants, managers best boys, gaffers, Foley operators and such don't get
fired. They just go on to the production company's next project. It is the
talent that moves around... just like radio.

"Eric F. Richards" wrote in message
...
"David Eduardo" wrote:

So, suddenly, when it is convenient, you believe in ratings.

I suspect that 25 years ago, they more closely reflected reality.

Actually, they did not. They were far less sophisticated, and undermeasured
ethnic group members and many lifestyle groups. Since then, Arbitron has
developed DST, where they use special techniques to insure proportional
participation of Blacks and Hispanics and get adequate young adult male
participation. the current product is vastly better than it was even 10
years ago.

Who cares? It was a losing station. It had to change format, it lost so
bad.
Radio is flexible that way... a format that does not work can be change,
literally, in hours.

I know a thing about format changes. But it wasn't a losing station.
It was successful, which is why it was *bought* and *changed* so it
wouldn't compete with WMMS.

WMMS was owned by Malrite. Malrite did not buy WWWM and change it. It was
changed to stop the money losses and to try to make money, which they did
acheve; WMJI has long been the highest billing Cleveland staiton.

WMMS was quite successful too, but only in promoting Peter's "3 foot
King Kong" myth. They overcompressed; everything above 8kHz was
noise. But they were THE HOME OF THE BUZZARD and had cool giveaways.

And it was the #1 station in the 1985-1982 period where WWWM existed. It
never came close to giving WMMS a run for the money, whcih is why it lost
money and changed.

Or, they listened to *me* on the college station.

Now I see. Another free-form radio proponant. Yawn.
WMJI is Cleveland's great radio station, and has been for some time. You
are
simply unable to accept that it is doing what a lot of people want.

A lot of people want background noise. WMJI supplies that. I do want
content, and WMJI is devoid of that.

They have a magnificnent morning show. And the rest of the day, their
listeners want music and they get it.


To you, success (WMMS, WMJI) are bad. Failure is to be put on a pedestal,
such as WWWM. You are like don Quixote... except that you joust with
great
radio stations instead of windmills.

You finally got one thing right: I am a sucker for a lost cause. But
the lost cause in this case is the radio industry. Perhaps in the
future you'll get your due -- your name will be remembered in the
phrase "Eduardo Engineering" -- the process of running a station into
the ground.

I have not done it yet. And I am currently having the biggest run of "Worst
to First" experiences I have ever had... 12 major markets, in fact. That is
because I listen to listeners, and help build stations that appeal to them
and, thus, appeal to advertisers who want to reach those listeners. It is
that simple.