"David Eduardo" wrote in message
. net...

"Frank Dresser" wrote in message
...

"David Eduardo" wrote in message
news

he real issue is that most AMs in the US do not serve
today's metro areas, and in more rural areas, most AMs were killed
already
by docket 80-90 drop ins.



I might be familiar to the issue, but I don't know what "docket 80-90
drop
ins" is.

Late 90's, following the Bonita Springs case (station lost its license
when
it applied to upgrade, as it opened up, then, competitive bidding) the FCC
added over a thousand new FMs and allowed Class A's to become B's or C's,
and allowed routine major changes, including changes in city of license.
End
result... Traverse City, MI, market, with one time 2 AMs, now has about 15
stations city grading a county of 40,000. Lake City, FL. 3 AMs and two FMs
grew to 7 FMs, and nobody makes money... the AMs are useless now, as the
local ground coverage is so poor that the FMs took it all.

In most of this type of market, there is nearly no AM listening, and the
coverage of the local small market AMs is so vastly inferior to the many
new
local FMs as to also discourage listening. There are very few decent
overage
AMs in America.

"David Eduardo" wrote in message
. net...

"Frank Dresser" wrote in message
...

"David Eduardo" wrote in message
news

he real issue is that most AMs in the US do not serve
today's metro areas, and in more rural areas, most AMs were killed
already
by docket 80-90 drop ins.



I might be familiar to the issue, but I don't know what "docket 80-90
drop
ins" is.

Late 90's, following the Bonita Springs case (station lost its license
when
it applied to upgrade, as it opened up, then, competitive bidding) the FCC
added over a thousand new FMs and allowed Class A's to become B's or C's,
and allowed routine major changes, including changes in city of license.
End
result... Traverse City, MI, market, with one time 2 AMs, now has about 15
stations city grading a county of 40,000. Lake City, FL. 3 AMs and two FMs
grew to 7 FMs, and nobody makes money... the AMs are useless now, as the
local ground coverage is so poor that the FMs took it all.

In most of this type of market, there is nearly no AM listening, and the
coverage of the local small market AMs is so vastly inferior to the many
new
local FMs as to also discourage listening. There are very few decent
overage
AMs in America.



Oh, my. A bunch of entrepreneurs started a bunch of radio stations which
now hardly have any listeners and don't make a cent. They're just
interfering with the radio establishment. Good thing nobody will be much
bothered when the bigger station's IBOC generators light up. Sheesh.

Frank Dresser

"RHF" wrote in message
ups.com...
DE - "two HD FM channels" = FM Stereo ?
-or- Two separate Channels of Programming ?

The digital channel can be sliced into one, two or more channels, and
receivers see these as HD 1, HD 2, etc for each station. There are several
hundred of these HD 2 channels already launched.

"Brenda Ann" wrote in message
...

"David Eduardo" wrote in message
. com...
Since when does the FCC adopt a standard that hands money to one
particular patent holder?

They did with C quam.


Say what?? I remember the FCC "letting the market decide" on which AMS
system would prevail. In Portland we had both C-Quam (KGW, et. al.) and
Kahn-Hazeltine (KKSN). Don't know if anyone was using the Magnavox system,
but it was more or less compatible with C-Quam anyway.

The FCC chose the Magnavox, and Lenard Kahn sued, and then the FCC came out
with a marketplace ruling 5 years later. To get to C quam, we went through a
singe system ruling, a lawsuit by a disgrunteld designer who did not care if
he killed AM,, and then a marketplace rulling. So they DID do a single
system ruling, even if changed later. The result was C Quam, and one
company getting all the (very limited) money for generators and royalties
for recievers.

David Frackelton Gleason aka Eduardo the fake Hispanic wrote:

"RHF" wrote in message
ups.com...
DE - "two HD FM channels" = FM Stereo ?
-or- Two separate Channels of Programming ?

The digital channel can be sliced into one, two or more channels, and
receivers see these as HD 1, HD 2, etc for each station. There are several
hundred of these HD 2 channels already launched.

And they all add up to one thing: QRM

dxAce
Michigan
USA

"Frank Dresser" wrote in message
...

"David Eduardo" wrote in message
. net...

"Frank Dresser" wrote in message
...

"David Eduardo" wrote in message

I'm not clear on what I'm wrong about. Doesn't FM also lose most of
their
listeners, in absolute numbers (not percentage) during the night? What
are
those numbers?

The difference is that FM actually increases share of available listeners
at
night, while AM decreases. All radio has different listening levels at
differnt times. From 6 Am to 7 PM, it is around 22%, while at night it is
more like 7%... keeping in mind that 7 PM is "daytime level" and 11 PM
most
people are asleep and it is around 3% of the universe.

Whaterver the listening level, FM takes more of it at night.



Yes, proprotionally, but I'm interested in how many listeners AM might
keep
if they went to IBOC at night. That's what I meant with "absolute
numbers".

There is no way of knowing. Thee is just a feeling that better quality AM
audio will make people far more interested in using it and, even more
important, make it more competitive with FM.

A further speculative comparision would concern the total number of
listeners with and without IBOC. And not the total for any given station,
but the total for the radio industry. After all, if IBOC doesn't draw a
larger number of dollars from the advertisers, it's expenses will be a
loss.

This is totally unpredictable. There is no research method known that will
predict so many variable. However, as the programming improves, as receivers
get cheaper and as people become aware of HD, there should be an
improvement. Many companies that considered selling all their AMs are
keeping them in the belief that HD will make a significant difference. We
are talking about billion dollar decision in the case of several of the
broadcasters that had been about to spin off all their AMs.

"Frank Dresser" wrote in message
...


The question seems to be -- what do people want? The mass market didn't
support FM back when it was the new and improved radio.

FM only "worked" when the FCC mandated a cessation of simulcating, in the
late 60's. New formats popped up left and right, and people liked them and
got radios.

I think there's a
good case to be made that increased interference is driving people away
from
AM,

AM has been relatively stable for about 15 to 18 years. What has hapened is
that the decent signals, which are very few in each market, have developed
viable talk and spots offerings, and the remainder of staitons have found
small niches to serve, predominantly religious or brokered in the larger
markets... even a few music foormats like standards and gospel get some
numbers and some sales on AM.

The determination of AM listening is the local groundwave signal. Even going
back 2 decades. scant listening to out of market signals was measured, even
in rural areas. This is because FM was highly built out, reaching most every
corner of the US with multiple signals.

and a reasonable first estimate might suggest that AM IBOC numbers might
more or less balance FM's, with similiar programming. So, maybe it
improves
AM fringe reception, and a few listeners switch from a FMer to an AMer.

There is no fringe usage, anyway. (meaning that probably less than a tenth a
percent of AM listening is to staitons not home to the local makret). Even
truck drivers now have XM, so the skywave coverage is actually a negative
(it comes back down and creates an interference zone with groundwave) rather
than the positive it used to be.

"Frank Dresser" wrote in message
...

"David Eduardo" wrote in message
. net...

"Frank Dresser" wrote in message
...

"David Eduardo" wrote in message
news


Since it only affects Am significantly, and does not affect AMs with
good
signals, we are talking about very few stations that are otherwise
viable
being affected.

I take it that electromagnatic interference from home electronics isn't
significantly reducing the radio audience even though they are
listening
to
analog radios.

This one has been proven. A look at ratings from the 70's and even 80's
show
listening ZIP codes to include significant listening in those in the 5
mv/m
to 10 mv/m range. Today, in most large cities, the listening is almost
entirely in the 10/mvm or better... in LA, it is mostly in the 15 mv/m,
for
example. The difference is not new stations, as most larger markets have
had
no new stations in that period, but the difficulty in listening... and
listener expectations of better signals and less noise.



And that's "very few stations that are otherwise viable being affected."?

I don't understand the question.

"Frank Dresser" wrote in message
news


Radio, however, is stuck. It might get a bit more bandwidth at the
fringes,
but it won't double.

FM HD doubles or even triples the program offerings in each market.

I also suspect IBOC is fixed in it's currrent incarnation. The newest
IBOC
AM might sound good even with it's limited bandwidth, but I can't see any
reason why similiar bandwidth conserving plans can't be used across the
internet. And the internet has the advantage of being able to continually
update it's decoders.

So does HD... at the transmission end.

Although I sitll figure ibiquity has the pay radio card up it's sleeve.

I tis never mentioned, The license fees are ad-billing based, in fact. The
contracts have no provisions for pay radio.

"Frank Dresser" wrote in message
...

Oh, my. A bunch of entrepreneurs started a bunch of radio stations which
now hardly have any listeners and don't make a cent.

Actually, the owners of most 80-90 stations were already owners in other
markets. All they did was file for as many of these things as they could.
Or, in some cases, entrepreneurs filed, and then, when granted, sold to
existing broadcasters.

They're just
interfering with the radio establishment.

They were the radio establishment. In fact, the original case of Bonita
Springs saw a single owner, Dick Friedman, lose the license to Beasley, who
had the FCC limit of staitons.

Good thing nobody will be much
bothered when the bigger station's IBOC generators light up. Sheesh.

There are already over a thousand HD stations on the air. There is more
theoretical complaining here than among listeners.

Interestingly, two years ago KFI reduced bandwidth to prepare for HD. Since
they did that, their ratings have increased from bottom of the top 10 in LA
to #2. As I said, this group complains far more than the listeners who
simply will have better quality and more format options.