"D Peter Maus" wrote in message
...
David Eduardo wrote:

What station? I'm curious about this...

I'm having trouble receiving WLS. The offending station, I'm not
sure. I can't make out much due to the IBOC rash from there down.


I'd be interested in what your engineer has to say.

I am going to contact him today. He is in the middle of an AM site move, so
he has all the necesary gear out and can probably do a spot check.

If things were that dire, it would make sense to have a less
intrusive/obtrusive implementation strategy. Disenfranchising local
listening with digital noise on a band that's fighting for it's survival,
is like everything that's been done to AM in the last 30 years:
shortsighted, and ultimately, counterproductive.

This is about the first case of such interference with a "big" station I
have heard of. In some cases, there are cases of stations losing fringe
coverage, such as Salem's decision to turn off HD on WIND to protect the
very rural coverage of 540 outside Milwaukee. But, for most broadcasters,
there has been a reasoned decision to sacrifice some remote coverage for the
improved quality of HD in the metros.

It may be this is akin to making the decision to ride a flat on the rim to
get out of dangerous traffic... you save your life, but ruin the rim. It is
a trade off.


Taking your scenario one step further... if AM is truly on it's last,
tentative legs, and AM stations of significant investment are in dire
straits, and if the large companies are beginning to move AM stations to
the FM band, where, say, in Chicago would stations like WBBM, WGN, WSCR,
WLS go? There are no open allocations. And it's not like there are any
allocations that would be worthy of sacrifice. And Young Talk was tried
here. It failed dismally. (Ask Turi Ryder how many times she's been here.)
Where would that content go? Where would Rush, Hannity, Levin, or even
Franken, Rhodes, Springer and Malloy go?

In Phoenix, Bonneville bought a top 10 CHR, and is going to simulcast KTAR
on it. In Salt Lake, they took a lower-performing FM and nuked the
programming to simulcast KSL. In both cases, the AM had no coverage or
interference issues.

In Washington, they moved WTOP, the frequent #1 station to FM, and did niche
formatting on the old AM channel which was the best Am signal in DC.

Clear Channel took Tallahassee's best AM (1270) and moved news talk to an FM
that was lower in billings and put only sports on the AM, WNLS.

This sort of thing is starting to happen, with the intervals being less and
less between swaps.

There are some markets where AM just willnot survive, as there are literally
no full coverage stations. In most rural areas the billing is now on FM, and
the AMs are also dieing. A good example is Moberly, MO. The Class IV KWIX
was famous as a local station that, in the 70's, billed over $1 million.
Today, it barely does $100 thousand while the sister FM bills nearly $2
million. KWIX was so famous that they even had a school where they trained
sales management of smaller market stations. But the AM, in obviously
competent hands, has become a rider on the FM bandwagon. It is a 1 kw
operation on 1340, while the FM is a full C. Nobody in that part of Missouri
is being deprived of AM service since I find about 8 FMs now put a 60 dbu
over Moberly, so the local service has imporved.


More to the point, if AM is over in 10 or less, and you're looking at a
5 year implementation, do you really think that there's a chance in less
than 5 years remaining you can rebuild what you've lost?

I don't think it is about rebuilding. Once HD has adequater receivers, there
will be new formats. Some, like WGN, made the mistake of ageing with the
listener and may be dead for all time.

David, I certainly see how you've arrived at your conclusions, Radio
being what it has always been and all...but what you're describing is a
roll of the dice with far greater chance of crapping out than staying in
the game. Almost entirely by serving the needs of advertisers and
broadcasters over the needs of listeners who ultimately carry the water.

The reason AM is losing viability is that it only attracts 55+ listeners.
Advertisers do not buy this crowd, so eventually, stations start losing
money. All free radio formats work only if there is advertiser support. This
is why teen lsitening is lower than 18-54. We don't program to teens, as
there is no revenue.

And if Radio is really more about Radio than it is about the audience,
is it any wonder why listenership and revenues are eroding in favor of
alternative outlets?

Revenue is not eroding. It is growing slowly, but is, in the last few years,
over 8% of all ad revenue for the first time since post-freeze days.

Non traditional outlets permitting mass customization vs traditional radio
where answers to complaints are met with prepackaged corporate non
responses, and listeners can be disenfranchised by a statistician in a
locked room.

There are a percentage of people to whom mass appeal offerings are not
appealing, starting with teens and over 55. Radio can not afford to go after
these groups, so they must find alternatives.

David Frackelton Gleason, prancing as 'Eduardo' and paid shill for Univision
Radio/iBiquity wrote:

"D Peter Maus" wrote in message
...
David Eduardo wrote:

What station? I'm curious about this...

I'm having trouble receiving WLS. The offending station, I'm not
sure. I can't make out much due to the IBOC rash from there down.


I'd be interested in what your engineer has to say.

I am going to contact him today. He is in the middle of an AM site move, so
he has all the necesary gear out and can probably do a spot check.

If things were that dire, it would make sense to have a less
intrusive/obtrusive implementation strategy. Disenfranchising local
listening with digital noise on a band that's fighting for it's survival,
is like everything that's been done to AM in the last 30 years:
shortsighted, and ultimately, counterproductive.

This is about the first case of such interference with a "big" station I
have heard of. In some cases, there are cases of stations losing fringe
coverage, such as Salem's decision to turn off HD on WIND to protect the
very rural coverage of 540 outside Milwaukee. But, for most broadcasters,
there has been a reasoned decision to sacrifice some remote coverage for the
improved quality of HD in the metros.

It may be this is akin to making the decision to ride a flat on the rim to
get out of dangerous traffic... you save your life, but ruin the rim. It is
a trade off.


Taking your scenario one step further... if AM is truly on it's last,
tentative legs, and AM stations of significant investment are in dire
straits, and if the large companies are beginning to move AM stations to
the FM band, where, say, in Chicago would stations like WBBM, WGN, WSCR,
WLS go? There are no open allocations. And it's not like there are any
allocations that would be worthy of sacrifice. And Young Talk was tried
here. It failed dismally. (Ask Turi Ryder how many times she's been here.)
Where would that content go? Where would Rush, Hannity, Levin, or even
Franken, Rhodes, Springer and Malloy go?

In Phoenix, Bonneville bought a top 10 CHR, and is going to simulcast KTAR
on it. In Salt Lake, they took a lower-performing FM and nuked the
programming to simulcast KSL. In both cases, the AM had no coverage or
interference issues.

In Washington, they moved WTOP, the frequent #1 station to FM, and did niche
formatting on the old AM channel which was the best Am signal in DC.

Clear Channel took Tallahassee's best AM (1270) and moved news talk to an FM
that was lower in billings and put only sports on the AM, WNLS.

This sort of thing is starting to happen, with the intervals being less and
less between swaps.

There are some markets where AM just willnot survive, as there are literally
no full coverage stations. In most rural areas the billing is now on FM, and
the AMs are also dieing. A good example is Moberly, MO. The Class IV KWIX
was famous as a local station that, in the 70's, billed over $1 million.
Today, it barely does $100 thousand while the sister FM bills nearly $2
million. KWIX was so famous that they even had a school where they trained
sales management of smaller market stations. But the AM, in obviously
competent hands, has become a rider on the FM bandwagon. It is a 1 kw
operation on 1340, while the FM is a full C. Nobody in that part of Missouri
is being deprived of AM service since I find about 8 FMs now put a 60 dbu
over Moberly, so the local service has imporved.


More to the point, if AM is over in 10 or less, and you're looking at a
5 year implementation, do you really think that there's a chance in less
than 5 years remaining you can rebuild what you've lost?

I don't think it is about rebuilding. Once HD has adequater receivers, there
will be new formats. Some, like WGN, made the mistake of ageing with the
listener and may be dead for all time.

David, I certainly see how you've arrived at your conclusions, Radio
being what it has always been and all...but what you're describing is a
roll of the dice with far greater chance of crapping out than staying in
the game. Almost entirely by serving the needs of advertisers and
broadcasters over the needs of listeners who ultimately carry the water.

The reason AM is losing viability is that it only attracts 55+ listeners.
Advertisers do not buy this crowd, so eventually, stations start losing
money. All free radio formats work only if there is advertiser support. This
is why teen lsitening is lower than 18-54. We don't program to teens, as
there is no revenue.

And if Radio is really more about Radio than it is about the audience,
is it any wonder why listenership and revenues are eroding in favor of
alternative outlets?

Revenue is not eroding. It is growing slowly, but is, in the last few years,
over 8% of all ad revenue for the first time since post-freeze days.

Non traditional outlets permitting mass customization vs traditional radio
where answers to complaints are met with prepackaged corporate non
responses, and listeners can be disenfranchised by a statistician in a
locked room.

There are a percentage of people to whom mass appeal offerings are not
appealing, starting with teens and over 55. Radio can not afford to go after
these groups, so they must find alternatives.

Your alternative might be hauling your prancing ass outta here and shilling
elsewhere.

"D Peter Maus" wrote in message
...
David Eduardo wrote:
"D Peter Maus" wrote in message


{content stipulated.}



So, let me put it this way....WLS is strong in Lake County.
Even though
the signal is not 15mv/m. Lake County listenership is high, and
WLS is a
strong radio station, here. And yet, here, HD rash has been
encroaching on
WLS, to the degree that it's now sometimes virtually impossible
to hear,
much less enjoy....and this HD rash is coming from another radio
station.
You telling me this is acceptable? Even when WLS, itself is NOT
transmitting HD and so no digital solution is available? (the
C-Quam pilot
is still lit and the station is still in stereo, even as of 00:30
UTC
today.

What station? I'm curious about this...


I'm having trouble receiving WLS. The offending station, I'm
not
sure. I can't make out much due to the IBOC rash from there down.


I'd be interested in what your engineer has to say.

I can send you audio files of the AM band from my location, if
you'd like.






This is not an easy discussion, and the first step is accepting
that AM will
not exist in 10 years or less if something is not done. There is
no other
solution than HD. Either it works, or the band dies. Nobody is
coming into
the party, and the ones already there are undesirable to
advertisers.



If things were that dire, it would make sense to have a less
intrusive/obtrusive implementation strategy. Disenfranchising local
listening with digital noise on a band that's fighting for it's
survival, is like everything that's been done to AM in the last 30
years: shortsighted, and ultimately, counterproductive.


Taking your scenario one step further... if AM is truly on it's
last,
tentative legs, and AM stations of significant investment are in
dire
straits, and if the large companies are beginning to move AM
stations
to the FM band, where, say, in Chicago would stations like WBBM,
WGN,
WSCR, WLS go? There are no open allocations. And it's not like there
are
any allocations that would be worthy of sacrifice. And Young Talk
was
tried here. It failed dismally. (Ask Turi Ryder how many times she's
been here.) Where would that content go? Where would Rush, Hannity,
Levin, or even Franken, Rhodes, Springer and Malloy go?

Cincinnati is in the same boat. Between Dayton,
Columbus, Lexington, Louisville, Indy and us,
there's no bandwidth to move major AM stations
(the big ones locally: 550, 700, 1360, and 1530).
The only way to do that is to remove the format
on some other stations, and someone's going to
lose out. Which is it? Urban contemporary?
Mix? Album oriented rock? Classic rock?

If Clear Channel wants to move any of their
four AM stations, they'll have to give up one
of those formats to do it. Or buy more stations,
but those stations are owned (for the most part)
by other mega conglomerates who aren't selling.

More to the point, if AM is over in 10 or less, and you're
looking at
a 5 year implementation, do you really think that there's a chance
in
less than 5 years remaining you can rebuild what you've lost?


David, I certainly see how you've arrived at your conclusions,
Radio
being what it has always been and all...but what you're describing
is a
roll of the dice with far greater chance of crapping out than
staying in
the game. Almost entirely by serving the needs of advertisers and
broadcasters over the needs of listeners who ultimately carry the
water.

Peter, you know, this might be a good thing in the
end. If AM ceases to be viable from a corporate
perspective, some local group will come along and
buy the stations and put on their own thing. In
a bizarre sort of way, it might lead to a renaissance
in the AM format; the big boys leave, and someone
will fill in the blank spaces.

There may be fewer listeners, but the radio will be
oriented more toward what those listeners want,
rather than packaged demographics.

And if Radio is really more about Radio than it is about the
audience, is it any wonder why listenership and revenues are eroding
in
favor of alternative outlets? Non traditional outlets permitting
mass
customization vs traditional radio where answers to complaints are
met
with prepackaged corporate non responses, and listeners can be
disenfranchised by a statistician in a locked room.

Can you see now why I've turned down offers to return?

You're a wise man, Peter, if you ask me.

--Mike L.

David Eduardo wrote:
"D Peter Maus" wrote in message
...
David Eduardo wrote:

What station? I'm curious about this...

I'm having trouble receiving WLS. The offending station, I'm not
sure. I can't make out much due to the IBOC rash from there down.


I'd be interested in what your engineer has to say.

I am going to contact him today. He is in the middle of an AM site move, so
he has all the necesary gear out and can probably do a spot check.



Thank you. Today's actually been a pretty good day. I haven't seen
this much signal on 890 here in a couple of weeks, so what noise there
is less than it was last week, when I could barely make out the station.



If things were that dire, it would make sense to have a less
intrusive/obtrusive implementation strategy. Disenfranchising local
listening with digital noise on a band that's fighting for it's survival,
is like everything that's been done to AM in the last 30 years:
shortsighted, and ultimately, counterproductive.

This is about the first case of such interference with a "big" station I
have heard of. In some cases, there are cases of stations losing fringe
coverage, such as Salem's decision to turn off HD on WIND to protect the
very rural coverage of 540 outside Milwaukee. But, for most broadcasters,
there has been a reasoned decision to sacrifice some remote coverage for the
improved quality of HD in the metros.

It may be this is akin to making the decision to ride a flat on the rim to
get out of dangerous traffic... you save your life, but ruin the rim. It is
a trade off.


I can see where the decision is made. But what I can't see is how, so
piecemeal this implementation is being done. A strategy to broadcasters,
perhaps, but chaos to the listeners, who do, after all account for those
who pay the freight.



Taking your scenario one step further... if AM is truly on it's last,
tentative legs, and AM stations of significant investment are in dire
straits, and if the large companies are beginning to move AM stations to
the FM band, where, say, in Chicago would stations like WBBM, WGN, WSCR,
WLS go? There are no open allocations. And it's not like there are any
allocations that would be worthy of sacrifice. And Young Talk was tried
here. It failed dismally. (Ask Turi Ryder how many times she's been here.)
Where would that content go? Where would Rush, Hannity, Levin, or even
Franken, Rhodes, Springer and Malloy go?

In Phoenix, Bonneville bought a top 10 CHR, and is going to simulcast KTAR
on it. In Salt Lake, they took a lower-performing FM and nuked the
programming to simulcast KSL. In both cases, the AM had no coverage or
interference issues.

In Washington, they moved WTOP, the frequent #1 station to FM, and did niche
formatting on the old AM channel which was the best Am signal in DC.

Clear Channel took Tallahassee's best AM (1270) and moved news talk to an FM
that was lower in billings and put only sports on the AM, WNLS.

This sort of thing is starting to happen, with the intervals being less and
less between swaps.



Something like that here, would be interesting to watch, give that
talk on FM, when tried, was not successful.




There are some markets where AM just willnot survive, as there are literally
no full coverage stations. In most rural areas the billing is now on FM, and
the AMs are also dieing. A good example is Moberly, MO. The Class IV KWIX
was famous as a local station that, in the 70's, billed over $1 million.
Today, it barely does $100 thousand while the sister FM bills nearly $2
million. KWIX was so famous that they even had a school where they trained
sales management of smaller market stations. But the AM, in obviously
competent hands, has become a rider on the FM bandwagon. It is a 1 kw
operation on 1340, while the FM is a full C. Nobody in that part of Missouri
is being deprived of AM service since I find about 8 FMs now put a 60 dbu
over Moberly, so the local service has imporved.


I remember KWIX. Listened to it many times while travelling. KWIX
was one of the reasons why I was so excited to get the offer from KOEL,
another monster in the middle of a cornfield in Iowa, but that convered
50 counties in 3 states. I had more listeners on KOEL at night than some
cities had population.

They're a shade of their former selves, now.




More to the point, if AM is over in 10 or less, and you're looking at a
5 year implementation, do you really think that there's a chance in less
than 5 years remaining you can rebuild what you've lost?

I don't think it is about rebuilding. Once HD has adequater receivers, there
will be new formats. Some, like WGN, made the mistake of ageing with the
listener and may be dead for all time.

They're trying. Todd Manley is the imaging director there, and he's
done a lot to hip the place up. Callers are sounding younger, too.
Whether there's hope...no telling. That would be one I'd be very sorry
to see go.

"D Peter Maus" wrote in message
...

In Phoenix, Bonneville bought a top 10 CHR, and is going to simulcast
KTAR on it. In Salt Lake, they took a lower-performing FM and nuked the
programming to simulcast KSL. In both cases, the AM had no coverage or
interference issues.

In Washington, they moved WTOP, the frequent #1 station to FM, and did
niche formatting on the old AM channel which was the best Am signal in
DC.

Clear Channel took Tallahassee's best AM (1270) and moved news talk to an
FM that was lower in billings and put only sports on the AM, WNLS.

This sort of thing is starting to happen, with the intervals being less
and less between swaps.



Something like that here, would be interesting to watch, give that talk
on FM, when tried, was not successful.

I do not think that the idea that you can do talk for people who are not
into talk will ever work. Talk listeners, aside from morning shows or potty
talk, appeals to 35+ in any language. So the issue is to make the delivery
method and the format relevant to the 35-44 group that should listen to
talk, but does not because they grew up after AM was the music medium of
choice and do not like it.

Many comment that "AM sounds fine to me." We find that in talking to
listeners... the older the listener, the more tolerant of AM LoFi they tend
to be. This is because the band has no inherent stigma, and these listeners
grew up on the sound... as awful as it is.

Since stations on AM went to talk formats because they could not do music
one, we know music is the last thing that may come back to AM with HD. For a
start, talk shows will sound better to the 35-44 demo and help keep stations
with a good balance of 35-54 to counter the "old" perception by buyers.

Asking under-35's, in their majority, to listen to any kind of talk with
content is not going to work. I have done personality heavy stations that
played 4 or 5 songs an hour all day, but there was a music base and the talk
was not political... it was lifestyle. I think we will see some creative
attempts and a bunch of failures before we find out how to make AM become
relevant to younger demos. Personally, I think it is going to be fun. And in
the long run, it will benefit listeners.... look how the fear of death after
the TV freeze forced music radio to develop into a robust alternative.

David Frackelton Gleason, prancing as 'Eduardo' and paid shill for Univision
Radio/iBiquity wrote:

"D Peter Maus" wrote in message
...

In Phoenix, Bonneville bought a top 10 CHR, and is going to simulcast
KTAR on it. In Salt Lake, they took a lower-performing FM and nuked the
programming to simulcast KSL. In both cases, the AM had no coverage or
interference issues.

In Washington, they moved WTOP, the frequent #1 station to FM, and did
niche formatting on the old AM channel which was the best Am signal in
DC.

Clear Channel took Tallahassee's best AM (1270) and moved news talk to an
FM that was lower in billings and put only sports on the AM, WNLS.

This sort of thing is starting to happen, with the intervals being less
and less between swaps.



Something like that here, would be interesting to watch, give that talk
on FM, when tried, was not successful.

I do not think that the idea that you can do talk for people who are not
into talk will ever work. Talk listeners, aside from morning shows or potty
talk, appeals to 35+ in any language. So the issue is to make the delivery
method and the format relevant to the 35-44 group that should listen to
talk, but does not because they grew up after AM was the music medium of
choice and do not like it.

Many comment that "AM sounds fine to me." We find that in talking to
listeners... the older the listener, the more tolerant of AM LoFi they tend
to be. This is because the band has no inherent stigma, and these listeners
grew up on the sound... as awful as it is.

If it's that damn awful, **** for brains, then what the **** are you doing HERE,
boy?

If regular AM is that damn bad, then you must hate shortwave even more.

Once again, hit the road, prancing shill.

dxAce
Michigan
USA

David Eduardo wrote:
"Telamon" wrote in message
...
In article ,
"David Eduardo" wrote:

FM in mono sounds better, even on a clock radio.

It does not sound better to me. FM has a little more of a high end
response but that's about it. You sure as hell are not going to hear the
difference on a clock radio.

Like I said before AM sounds good. I don't see what the problem is with
the sound quality. The quality can go down when you go out of the area
but you won't consider that anyway because it is out of the market. I
find weak signal FM more annoying than weak signal AM. FM gets a pretty
loud background hiss on a weak signal when you turn up the volume.

Many efforts have been made, all across the US, to make AM attract younger
demos via formats designed for 35-44, etc. The only one that has worked
somewhat is sports, but all music attempts have failed miserably. The
reason: AM does not sound as good. Listeners tell us this.

This is all perfectly consistent with the fact that you are B-U-S-T-E-D!

"dxAce" wrote in message
...


Many comment that "AM sounds fine to me." We find that in talking to
listeners... the older the listener, the more tolerant of AM LoFi they
tend
to be. This is because the band has no inherent stigma, and these
listeners
grew up on the sound... as awful as it is.

If it's that damn awful, **** for brains, then what the **** are you doing
HERE,
boy.

I am telling what the future holds, whether it is your preferred point of
vie wor not.

If regular AM is that damn bad, then you must hate shortwave even more.

I clearly stated I was relaying listener opoinions, not mine. I grew up on
both AM and DX and have no problems with fading and such.

I would imagine that many DXers have had this experience: you are in your
car and tuning the AM dial to see what unusual thing you can get. The
passenger or passengers quickly ask why you are listeing to "that noise."

Most listeners are not DXers and don't want fading, static and such.

Once again, hit the road, prancing shill.

I'm on the road, thanks for asking. Lovely day in Cd. Juárez, Chih.

David Eduardo wrote:
"dxAce" wrote in message
...


Many comment that "AM sounds fine to me." We find that in talking to
listeners... the older the listener, the more tolerant of AM LoFi they
tend
to be. This is because the band has no inherent stigma, and these
listeners
grew up on the sound... as awful as it is.

If it's that damn awful, **** for brains, then what the **** are you doing
HERE,
boy.

I am telling what the future holds, whether it is your preferred point of
vie wor not.


What the future holds is your continuing to be BUSTED.


If regular AM is that damn bad, then you must hate shortwave even more.

I clearly stated I was relaying listener opoinions, not mine. I grew up on
both AM and DX and have no problems with fading and such.

I would imagine that many DXers have had this experience: you are in your
car and tuning the AM dial to see what unusual thing you can get. The
passenger or passengers quickly ask why you are listeing to "that noise."

Most listeners are not DXers and don't want fading, static and such.


Most listeners aren't BUSTED, either.



Once again, hit the road, prancing shill.

I'm on the road, thanks for asking. Lovely day in Cd. Juárez, Chih.

May Montezuma exact his most terrible revenge on you.

David Eduardo wrote:

"dxAce" wrote in message
...


Many comment that "AM sounds fine to me." We find that in talking to
listeners... the older the listener, the more tolerant of AM LoFi they
tend
to be. This is because the band has no inherent stigma, and these
listeners
grew up on the sound... as awful as it is.

If it's that damn awful, **** for brains, then what the **** are you doing
HERE,
boy.

I am telling what the future holds, whether it is your preferred point of
vie wor not.

If regular AM is that damn bad, then you must hate shortwave even more.

I clearly stated I was relaying listener opoinions, not mine. I grew up on
both AM and DX and have no problems with fading and such.

I would imagine that many DXers have had this experience: you are in your
car and tuning the AM dial to see what unusual thing you can get. The
passenger or passengers quickly ask why you are listeing to "that noise."

Most listeners are not DXers and don't want fading, static and such.

Once again, hit the road, prancing shill.

I'm on the road, thanks for asking. Lovely day in Cd. Juárez, Chih.

Prancing territory?