Tdonaly wrote:
If Kraus really believes that, he's as ignorant as you are.

No chance that Kraus could be right and you be wrong? :-)
Please read Kraus' book, Tom, and get back to us. Richard H.
has the book and has verified what I have posted about it.

A stub is not the same as a lumped-component tank circuit.

An inductive stub can perform a similar function to an inductor.
In some resonant applications, a 1/4WL shorted stub can perform
a similar function to a tank circuit, trap, or self-resonant
inductor.

By the way, Cecil, I'm surprised at you. Have you tried *EVERY*
value of inductive reactance in EZNEC?

Enough values to see the trend. The lumped inductive reactances in
EZNEC never reverse the phase of the current. As the lumped inductive
reactance is increased on the phased array application, all that
happens is the current is reduced in magnitude. That's not the way
the real world works. Would you like a copy of those EZNEC files?
--
73, Cecil, W5DXP

Reg Edwards wrote:

What the whole damn lot of you have forgotten is the electromagnetic
coupling which occurs between the antenna wire sections on either side of
the phasing coils, especially when the adjacent wire sections are supposed
to be in anti-phase with each other.

Yes, but soon we'll all have forgotten more than you ever knew. ;-)

73 de ac6xg

On Thu, 29 Jan 2004 15:26:44 -0600, Cecil Moore
wrote:

Einstein once
said that all our models are flawed.
--
73, Cecil, W5DXP

Maybe because his browser couldn't open pages, and pdf wouldn't work
for him.

Or was that Galileo?

Hi Wes,

I am glad you aren't spinning this out like Roy used to. I got tired
of those "I'm outta here" responses linked down the page like
dominoes.

73's
Richard Clark, KB7QHC

Cec sez Kraus . . . .
==================
Still worshipping Kraus then Ces? ;o)

Reg Edwards wrote:
Cec sez Kraus . . . .
==================
Still worshipping Kraus then Ces? ;o)

Not worshipping, Reg, just respecting. He's one of the few
references I have for BBQ'ing those sacred cows.
--
73, Cecil http://www.qsl.net/w5dxp



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Reg wrote,

What the whole damn lot of you have forgotten is the electromagnetic
coupling which occurs between the antenna wire sections on either side of
the phasing coils, especially when the adjacent wire sections are supposed
to be in anti-phase with each other.


Absolutely correct. No analysis is complete without taking that into account.
I was hoping no one would bring that up, however, since I've
been having too much fun goring Cecil's rather fragile ox.
73,
Tom Donaly, KA6RUH

Cecil wrote,

Tdonaly wrote:
Besides, it hasn't been proven, at least not by you, that
Kraus' loading coils work the way you seem to think they do.

Kraus' phase-reversing coils work the way he says they do.
A high impedance trap blocks current if it is looking into
a low impedance because it is a high impedance. But if it
is looking into a high impedance, like a 1/2WL element, it
simply reverses the phase of the current, like a quarter-wave
shorted series stub. Would you like me to send you the EZNEC
files that demonstrate the phase reversal using stubs or
multiple sources?
--
73, Cecil, W5DXP


Better yet, Cecil, show me a mathematical analysis. It doesn't have to
be rigorous - you can wave your hands if you want to - but it does have
to make sense. Ah, how wonderfully easy it would be if only your ideas were
true.
73,
Tom Donaly, KA6RUH

Reg wrote,

Cec sez Kraus . . . .
==================
Still worshipping Kraus then Ces? ;o)



He can't work out the proofs himself so he has to
appeal to a higher authority and hope it all comes out
right.
73,
Tom Donaly, KA6RUH

Reg wrote,
Tdonaly wrote:
Adjust the model yourself,
if you think that's what it will show, and put the results on
your website.

Unfortunately, I don't have the modeling software that Wes
is using. And I have already demonstrated the effect using
inductive loading stubs modeled with EZNEC.

Reg has already said that real-world coils with Ls, Cs, & Rs,
can be treated as transmission lines. Rhea's paper on a new
solenoid model agrees with Reg. Have you ever seen a transmission
line less than 1/2WL long where the current-in is equal to the
current-out when there are standing waves present? Even in a
transmission line without reflections, the current-in is never
equal to the current-out in magnitude and phase except for
lossless lines at the N*wavelength points.

Most of this stuff is common sense for anyone who thinks that
reality should dictate the model, not vice versa. Einstein once
said that all our models are flawed.
--
73, Cecil, W5DXP

I know Reg has said that. He's not the first nor will he be the last.
That's not the only way to look at it, however, and I doubt if it's the
best under all circumstances. In order to show that an inductor can
be treated as a transmission line, in the way you want to do it, you
have to show that your inductor has an exponential current gradient
along its length when it's terminated in a certain impedance. I don't
think you've thought much about how that can be done. Yuri
says he's going to try to show something of the sort using fish tank
thermometers. At least he's making the attempt.
73,
Tom Donaly, KA6RUH

Tdonaly wrote:
Absolutely correct. No analysis is complete without taking that into account.
I was hoping no one would bring that up, however, since I've
been having too much fun goring Cecil's rather fragile ox.

Don't you mean Kraus' "rather fragile ox"?
--
73, Cecil http://www.qsl.net/w5dxp



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