Cecil Moore wrote:
That's *exactly* what Roy and Tom are measuring.

So if Roy and Tom jump off a bridge, are you going to jump off a bridge
too, Cecil?

:-)

73, Jim AC6XG

Tdonaly wrote:
The only way to resolve this is to make an antenna and see if it
will work the way you say Kraus, and you, say it will.

No need to build one, Tom. Diamond has already built one for me.
It's the model NR72B. On 2m, the coil acts as a normal loading
coil. On 70cm, the coil is a phase-reversing coil with 1/4WL
on the bottom and 1/2WL on the top. Kraus describes that exact
antenna on page 824 in Figure 23-21(c) of _Antennas_For_All_
Applications_, 3rd edition. Richard H. can verify that.

Cecil wrote,
Kraus describes the antenna. Diamond builds and markets the
antenna. Do you believe that Kraus is wrong AND Diamond is
engaging in fraudulent marketing practices? You might get
rich and famous by suing them. (Then again, they might just
laugh at your ignorance.)

My Comet 2x4MAX also has phase-reversing coils in it. This is
the 21st century, Tom. It's past time to BBQ your sacred cow.

It is well known that a 3/2WL center fed antenna, like the G5RV
on 20m, undergoes some current phase reversals. That's what gives
it the cloverleaf pattern on 20m. If we make a helical G5RV and
use it on 20m, do you think those phase reversals will go away
simply because we are now dealing with a coil? Please rethink
your position.

If I remember correctly, Tom Rauch tried this and couldn't get it to
work as it was supposed to.

When an experimenter believes something is not going to work, it
usually doesn't work. Any number of reasons come to mind.
--
73, Cecil, W5DXP


Cecil, coils work fine as long as everything is taken into account,
including the capacitance between the two radiators.
Tank circuits don't. I once thought up the same scheme, myself,
and felt pretty proud of myself until I found out it was ancient history.
By the way, capacitors work, too. Would you like to
show me how to make a half-wave capacitor? If your theory is
correct, you should be able to model a capacitor as a transmission
line, also.
The theory of coupled oscillators of all sorts is moderately interesting,
but you can't learn it by quoting Aristotle. The methods of 13th century
scholasticism have their limits. You can argue as much as you want
about "phase reversing coils" and such, but unless you've done some
math and tried to get the results of your math to ape reality through
experimentation, the probability of your understanding the subject matter
is very small.
Actually, Tom thought it was going to work, if I remember correctly.
That was a pretty dumb cheap-shot on your part, Cecil.
73,
Tom Donaly, KA6RUH

Cecil wrote,

Tdonaly wrote:
How fast does light travel in copper, Cecil?

Slower than air so the current into and out of a coil cannot
possibly be identical. It takes ~1 nS for light to travel
one foot through air. How on earth can it possibly travel
faster than that through a one foot long copper coil? You
guys are worshiping a religion completely divorced from
scientific fact.
--
73, Cecil http://www.qsl.net/w5dxp



O.k., Cecil, let's suppose you're right. Since there's more
current going into a coil than coming out, then the coil must be
storing charge, somewhere. Charge is conserved, Cecil. You
can't create it or destroy it. If the coil is storing charge somewhere
it must be acting like a capacitor, which is famous for doing just
that. Where does the coil store its charge?
73,
Tom Donaly, KA6RUH

Tdonaly wrote:
If your theory is
correct, you should be able to model a capacitor as a transmission
line, also.

Yeah. A really short transmission line.

You do understand what the words 'propagation delay' mean, right?

You can argue as much as you want
about "phase reversing coils" and such, but unless you've done some
math and tried to get the results of your math to ape reality through
experimentation, the probability of your understanding the subject matter
is very small.

I assume you know how to use a dual trace oscilloscope. Try running a
signal through a coil of wire and see if you can get it to go through
without exhibiting a phase delay.

73, Jim AC6XG

Tdonaly wrote:

SNIP


O.k., Cecil, let's suppose you're right. Since there's more
current going into a coil than coming out, then the coil must be
storing charge, somewhere. Charge is conserved, Cecil. You
can't create it or destroy it. If the coil is storing charge somewhere
it must be acting like a capacitor, which is famous for doing just
that. Where does the coil store its charge?
73,
Tom Donaly, KA6RUH


Two possibilities exist: 1) Charge is stored in the interwinding
capacitance; or, 2) EM radiation is occurring in the coil i.e. the
winding length is a significant portion of a wavelength!!

What's your Physics say?

Tdonaly wrote:
Cecil, coils work fine as long as everything is taken into account,
including the capacitance between the two radiators. Tank circuits don't.

Tank circuits don't "work fine as long as everything is taken into
account"? That's a really, really strange assertion.

Would you like to
show me how to make a half-wave capacitor? If your theory is
correct, you should be able to model a capacitor as a transmission
line, also.

Please show me how to build a physical capacitor with distributed
inductance and I indeed will show you how to make a half-wave capacitor.
I suspect it is possible but to the best of my knowledge nobody has ever
tried to maximize the inductance in a capacitor.

You can argue as much as you want
about "phase reversing coils" and such, but unless you've done some
math and tried to get the results of your math to ape reality through
experimentation, the probability of your understanding the subject matter
is very small.

I am amazed that you disagree with Kraus. If your math disagrees with
reality, it is simply wrong and has turned into a religious belief.
You are free to worship at the alter of mathematics but please don't
expect the rest of us scientists to join you there.

A transmission line in a distributed network can reverse the phase
of the signals. A coil in a distributed network can reverse the
phase of the signals. Do you really expect anyone to believe that a
one wavelength long helical antenna can exist without phase reversals?
If so, you have just re-written the laws of physics.

The Catholic priests 500 years ago believed their religion was superior
to reality. Today, you believe your sacred cow math models are superior
to reality. I don't see an iota of difference between those two positions.
Math models cannot be used to verify reality. It is supposed to be the
opposite situation. I guess I should expect you to put me under house
arrest as the next step in shutting me up.
--
73, Cecil http://www.qsl.net/w5dxp



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Tdonaly wrote:
O.k., Cecil, let's suppose you're right. Since there's more
current going into a coil than coming out, then the coil must be
storing charge, somewhere.

Tom, Tom, Tom, we are talking about *net* current. The net current
in an unterminated transmission line can be zero while 1/4WL away,
it is 100 amps. Are you asserting that transmission lines don't
conserve charge? Would you please put your brain in gear?
--
73, Cecil http://www.qsl.net/w5dxp



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Dave Shrader wrote:
Two possibilities exist: 1) Charge is stored in the interwinding
capacitance; or, 2) EM radiation is occurring in the coil i.e. the
winding length is a significant portion of a wavelength!!

What's your Physics say?

Don't know about Tom's physics, but mine says the net current in an
unterminated transmission line can be zero at one point and 100 amps
1/4 WL away. Tom (apparently) thinks that is a violation of the
conservation of charge principle.
--
73, Cecil http://www.qsl.net/w5dxp



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Jim wrote,

Tdonaly wrote:
If your theory is
correct, you should be able to model a capacitor as a transmission
line, also.

Yeah. A really short transmission line.

You do understand what the words 'propagation delay' mean, right?

You can argue as much as you want
about "phase reversing coils" and such, but unless you've done some
math and tried to get the results of your math to ape reality through
experimentation, the probability of your understanding the subject matter
is very small.

I assume you know how to use a dual trace oscilloscope. Try running a
signal through a coil of wire and see if you can get it to go through
without exhibiting a phase delay.

73, Jim AC6XG


You missed the point, as usual. I guess I've done it now, I've
resurrected the Jim and Cecil show. It's time to bow out and
let you two congratulate each other on your misunderstandings
to your heart's content.
73,
Tom Donaly, KA6RUH

Cecil wrote,
(snip)

I am amazed that you disagree with Kraus. If your math disagrees with
reality, it is simply wrong and has turned into a religious belief.
You are free to worship at the alter of mathematics but please don't
expect the rest of us scientists to join you there.

A transmission line in a distributed network can reverse the phase
of the signals. A coil in a distributed network can reverse the
phase of the signals. Do you really expect anyone to believe that a
one wavelength long helical antenna can exist without phase reversals?
If so, you have just re-written the laws of physics.

The Catholic priests 500 years ago believed their religion was superior
to reality. Today, you believe your sacred cow math models are superior
to reality. I don't see an iota of difference between those two positions.
Math models cannot be used to verify reality. It is supposed to be the
opposite situation. I guess I should expect you to put me under house
arrest as the next step in shutting me up.
--
73, Cecil http://www.qsl.net/w5dxp


This is vintage Moore. I know you're never going to admit that you
don't understand this stuff. That's fine. I'm going to leave the field to
you and your pal, Jim, until the next time you start trying to pawn off
your simple ideas as The Truth.
73,
Tom Donaly, KA6RUH