On Fri, 30 Jan 2004 14:06:27 -0600, Cecil Moore
wrote:

|Wes Stewart wrote:
| If you would actually read the paper *before* beginning
| to argue, you would see that all of the modeling can be done in EZNEC
| and I also supplied the .ez files so you don't have to create the coil
| models yourself.
|
|I just looked at the paper again and I don't see any files to download.
|Where are the files? I only have DOS-based EZNEC. Will it still work?

Not sure. I tried installing EZNEC 2.0 on this machine and it would
not take. I tried EZNEC 1.0 and it installed but doesn't want to run
on Win-XP and I not going to waste time trying. It did open the files
however. My XYL has the dual boot machine with Win98 tied up and I'm
not going to ask her to give it up. Not when she's just authorized
the purchase of a new $2K table saw. :-D

|
| Now, I showed you mine why don't you show us yours. Stop asking
| whether we would like to see your model files and just put them on
| your web page where we can take them or leave them.
|
|Don't know how. But assuming I can learn how to do that in HTML, I'll
|try to post those files tomorrow.

As you can see from my home page I'm not, nor do I want to be, a web
page designer. But even I know that you can just ftp your files to
your web page. You don't need to create a link on a page, just tell
us the file name. I do it all the time.

Dave wrote,

Tdonaly wrote:

SNIP


O.k., Cecil, let's suppose you're right. Since there's more
current going into a coil than coming out, then the coil must be
storing charge, somewhere. Charge is conserved, Cecil. You
can't create it or destroy it. If the coil is storing charge somewhere
it must be acting like a capacitor, which is famous for doing just
that. Where does the coil store its charge?
73,
Tom Donaly, KA6RUH


Two possibilities exist: 1) Charge is stored in the interwinding
capacitance; or, 2) EM radiation is occurring in the coil i.e. the
winding length is a significant portion of a wavelength!!

What's your Physics say?


It says you can radiate energy, but radiating charge is another
proposition. Also, charge has to be stored on the surface of
the conductor, not in it's own field. Energy can be stored there,
though.
73,
Tom Donaly, KA6RUH

Tdonaly wrote:
This is vintage Moore. I know you're never going to admit that you
don't understand this stuff. That's fine. I'm going to leave the field to
you and your pal, Jim, until the next time you start trying to pawn off
your simple ideas as The Truth.

Vintage Donaly. When you lose the argument, mount an ad hominem attack.
Why don't you respond to the questions? True or False?

It is possible to measure zero net amps in a transmission line while
measuring 100 net amps 1/4WL away. ___________
That violates the principle of conservation of charge. _________

Hint: The net current can have a different magnitude at two ends of
a transmission line without violating the conservation of charge
principle. The net current can have a different magnitude at two ends
of a coil without violating the conservation of charge principle.
The difference in current is possible because of the standing waves.
--
73, Cecil http://www.qsl.net/w5dxp



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Wes Stewart wrote:
As you can see from my home page I'm not, nor do I want to be, a web
page designer. But even I know that you can just ftp your files to
your web page. You don't need to create a link on a page, just tell
us the file name. I do it all the time.

Wow, that's news to me. I knew that one could access .htm and .gif files
with a browser, but .ez files? That's pretty neat.

Wes, I took a brief look at your coil .ez files. There seems to be a
current taper through the coil.
--
73, Cecil http://www.qsl.net/w5dxp



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Tdonaly wrote:
It says you can radiate energy, but radiating charge is another
proposition. Also, charge has to be stored on the surface of
the conductor, not in it's own field. Energy can be stored there,
though.

An unterminated transmission line reads zero net current at one point.
Does that mean there is no charge on the entire line? Do you understand
how net charge can clump together for standing waves between the two
zero current points?
--
73, Cecil http://www.qsl.net/w5dxp



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Tdonaly wrote:
"In order to show that an inductor can be treated as a transmission
line, in the way that you want to do it, you have to show that your
inductor has an exponential potential gradient along its length when
terminated in a certain impedance."

Inductors are used to replace a missing length of an antenna which often
would be located at the inductor. The coil is an antenna length
surrogate. Its delay and impedance characteristics match that of the
missing length of straight wire.

The logic is simple. Natural growth or decline is a change based upon a
certain fraction of the available energy. One segment of of a radiator
or a line extracts a certain energy fraction. The next similar segment
extracts the same percentage, but the extraction is larger or smaller
because the remaining energy it has to work with is is larger or
smaller. It`s a natural law of growth or decline.

It is "exponential" because that`s the name given to change "as a
percentage of the energy of the energy involved". It`s growth or
shrinkage at the "natural rate".

It is exactly due to agreement in the amplitude and phase behaviors of
antennas and transmission lines that Terman refers his readers to his
transmission line section to explain antennas.

Best regards, Richard Harrson, KB5WZ

On 31 Jan 2004 02:18:33 GMT, (Tdonaly) wrote:

This is vintage Moore.

You were expecting chopped liver? Tom, you and Wes and.... know
better.

73's
Richard Clark, KB7QHC

On Fri, 30 Jan 2004 19:22:03 -0700, Wes Stewart
wrote:

But even I know that you can just ftp your files to
your web page. You don't need to create a link on a page, just tell
us the file name. I do it all the time.

This is the up and coming thing of pre-schoolers now. 45% are making
their own web sites. They also know EM theory better.

73's
Richard Clark, KB7QHC

Richard Harrison wrote:
Inductors are used to replace a missing length of an antenna which often
would be located at the inductor. The coil is an antenna length
surrogate. Its delay and impedance characteristics match that of the
missing length of straight wire.

Hi Richard,
I know what you mean and it is not an *exact* match. (And you did
not say or imply that it was an exact match.) From a 1/4WL monopole
to a loaded mobile antenna, the feedpoint impedance can drop from about
35 ohms to about 12 ohms. That probably means that the in-phase reflected
current has increased from one configuration to the other and the
out-of-phase reflected voltage has also increased. In other words, the
antenna reflection coefficient is higher for the loaded monopole which
would make it less efficient.

We know that, at resonance, the net feedpoint voltage is in phase with
the net feedpoint current. But the component forward and reflected
currents do not have to be in phase. And the component forward and
reflected voltages do not have to be 180 degrees out of phase.

In fact, there is a considerable amount of interference going on at
the feedpoint of a standing-wave antenna. If one calculates or
measures the s11 reflection coefficient s-parameter at the feedpoint
of a dipole, it will have a magnitude in the ballpark of about 0.85
--
73, Cecil http://www.qsl.net/w5dxp



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Cecil Moore wrote:
Dave Shrader wrote:

Two possibilities exist: 1) Charge is stored in the interwinding
capacitance; or, 2) EM radiation is occurring in the coil i.e. the
winding length is a significant portion of a wavelength!!

What's your Physics say?


Don't know about Tom's physics, but mine says the net current in an
unterminated transmission line can be zero at one point and 100 amps
1/4 WL away. Tom (apparently) thinks that is a violation of the
conservation of charge principle.

Hey Cecil, What's this 'conservation of charge'?

I'm aware of the 'Conservation of Energy', 'Conservation of Momentum',
'conservation of our wetlands', etc.

For your example: Conservation of Energy yields: 1/2*L*I^2 = 1/2*C*V^2
at the high current end and the high voltage end respectively.

My Physics and my brain must be getting old!!