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#1
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![]() "Dave Oldridge" wrote in message 9... Rick wrote in news ![]() On Mon, 09 Apr 2007 23:36:56 +0000, Dave Oldridge wrote: NVIS propagation is pretty high angle stuff. If you look at the three dimensional patterns for NVIS antennas you will see that they have a large lobe at high angles and an almost circular omnidirectional pattern at those angles. We're looking at 80 degrees and up mostly here, maybe 70 at the low end....so that antennas are mainly designed to illuminate the patch of ionosphere directly above the antenna. Right. That's my point. So, what I'm claiming ... and trying to get someone who knows more about this stuff than I do (which is just about all of you) to confirm or deny ... is that with an NVIS dipole, someone 100 miles away from me would not be able to perceive the difference if my antenna was broadside to him or oriented in line with him. True, or false? Absolutely true. Any difference would be insignificant. The path elevation is about 79 degrees for that path. -- Dave Oldridge+ ICQ 1800667 Absolutely??? So if you suspended another dipole above your NVIS dipole and oriented 90 degrees to each other, the difference would be insignificant? Then move it up into the "clouds", then move down to earth at the distance and you will see "insignificant" difference in signal levels? Seems that direction finders should not work according to this "verdict", Eh? One thing is the direction of the signals (maximum) another one is the polarization. Based on the orientation of antennas, one can orient the antenna to find the minimum signal. Yuri, K3BU.us |
#2
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![]() So if you suspended another dipole above your NVIS dipole and oriented 90 degrees to each other, the difference would be insignificant? Then move it up into the "clouds", then move down to earth at the distance and you will see "insignificant" difference in signal levels? Seems that direction finders should not work according to this "verdict", Eh? One thing is the direction of the signals (maximum) another one is the polarization. Based on the orientation of antennas, one can orient the antenna to find the minimum signal. Yuri, K3BU.us Hi Yuri, As the wave pass through the ionosphere, strange things happen. You could google on Faraday rotation, ordinary and extraordinary waves to find out that at low frequency, the change in polarization is significant. Based on the down coming wave, you cannot determine the orientation of the transmitting antenna, neither the position with reasonable accuracy (for NVIS propagation). When you place the receiving antenna just above the transmitting antenna you are right, but we were discussing NVIS propagation. Best Regards, Wim PA3DJS |
#3
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![]() "Wimpie" wrote in message ps.com... So if you suspended another dipole above your NVIS dipole and oriented 90 degrees to each other, the difference would be insignificant? Then move it up into the "clouds", then move down to earth at the distance and you will see "insignificant" difference in signal levels? Seems that direction finders should not work according to this "verdict", Eh? One thing is the direction of the signals (maximum) another one is the polarization. Based on the orientation of antennas, one can orient the antenna to find the minimum signal. Yuri, K3BU.us Hi Yuri, As the wave pass through the ionosphere, strange things happen. You could google on Faraday rotation, ordinary and extraordinary waves to find out that at low frequency, the change in polarization is significant. Change does not mean that polarization dissapears. Based on the down coming wave, you cannot determine the orientation of the transmitting antenna, neither the position with reasonable accuracy (for NVIS propagation). When you place the receiving antenna just above the transmitting antenna you are right, but we were discussing NVIS propagation. Best Regards, Wim PA3DJS So when signal is reflected, the polarization disappears? 73 Yuri, K3BU |
#4
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On 12 abr, 00:47, "Yuri Blanarovich" wrote:
"Wimpie" wrote in message ps.com... So if you suspended another dipole above your NVIS dipole and oriented 90 degrees to each other, the difference would be insignificant? Then move it up into the "clouds", then move down to earth at the distance and you will see "insignificant" difference in signal levels? Seems that direction finders should not work according to this "verdict", Eh? One thing is the direction of the signals (maximum) another one is the polarization. Based on the orientation of antennas, one can orient the antenna to find the minimum signal. Yuri, K3BU.us Hi Yuri, As the wave pass through the ionosphere, strange things happen. You could google on Faraday rotation, ordinary and extraordinary waves to find out that at low frequency, the change in polarization is significant. Change does not mean that polarization dissapears. Based on the down coming wave, you cannot determine the orientation of the transmitting antenna, neither the position with reasonable accuracy (for NVIS propagation). When you place the receiving antenna just above the transmitting antenna you are right, but we were discussing NVIS propagation. Best Regards, Wim PA3DJS So when signal is reflected, the polarization disappears? No, mostly the down comming wave has a circular component (eliptical polarization), therefore the orientation is not of significant importance. Wim, PA3DJS. 73 Yuri, K3BU |
#5
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![]() "Wimpie" wrote in message ups.com... On 12 abr, 00:47, "Yuri Blanarovich" wrote: "Wimpie" wrote in message ps.com... So if you suspended another dipole above your NVIS dipole and oriented 90 degrees to each other, the difference would be insignificant? Then move it up into the "clouds", then move down to earth at the distance and you will see "insignificant" difference in signal levels? Seems that direction finders should not work according to this "verdict", Eh? One thing is the direction of the signals (maximum) another one is the polarization. Based on the orientation of antennas, one can orient the antenna to find the minimum signal. Yuri, K3BU.us Hi Yuri, As the wave pass through the ionosphere, strange things happen. You could google on Faraday rotation, ordinary and extraordinary waves to find out that at low frequency, the change in polarization is significant. Change does not mean that polarization dissapears. Based on the down coming wave, you cannot determine the orientation of the transmitting antenna, neither the position with reasonable accuracy (for NVIS propagation). When you place the receiving antenna just above the transmitting antenna you are right, but we were discussing NVIS propagation. Best Regards, Wim PA3DJS So when signal is reflected, the polarization disappears? No, mostly the down comming wave has a circular component (eliptical polarization), therefore the orientation is not of significant importance. Wim, PA3DJS. 73 Yuri, K3BU So if there is ANY polarization left how can you claim that is not of significant importance. The proof in the pudding is that on any signal one can with any antenna, especially directional, find the spot where signal is minimal or nulled out. Nulls are sharp vs. broad pattern, but one has to be aware of them and understand the difference between the pattern and polarization. Yuri, K3BU.us |
#6
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On 12 abr, 23:40, "Yuri Blanarovich" wrote:
"Wimpie" wrote in message ups.com... On 12 abr, 00:47, "Yuri Blanarovich" wrote: "Wimpie" wrote in message oups.com... So if you suspended another dipole above your NVIS dipole and oriented 90 degrees to each other, the difference would be insignificant? Then move it up into the "clouds", then move down to earth at the distance and you will see "insignificant" difference in signal levels? Seems that direction finders should not work according to this "verdict", Eh? One thing is the direction of the signals (maximum) another one is the polarization. Based on the orientation of antennas, one can orient the antenna to find the minimum signal. Yuri, K3BU.us Hi Yuri, As the wave pass through the ionosphere, strange things happen. You could google on Faraday rotation, ordinary and extraordinary waves to find out that at low frequency, the change in polarization is significant. Change does not mean that polarization dissapears. Based on the down coming wave, you cannot determine the orientation of the transmitting antenna, neither the position with reasonable accuracy (for NVIS propagation). When you place the receiving antenna just above the transmitting antenna you are right, but we were discussing NVIS propagation. Best Regards, Wim PA3DJS So when signal is reflected, the polarization disappears? No, mostly the down comming wave has a circular component (eliptical polarization), therefore the orientation is not of significant importance. Wim, PA3DJS. 73 Yuri, K3BU So if there is ANY polarization left how can you claim that is not of significant importance. The proof in the pudding is that on any signal one can with any antenna, especially directional, find the spot where signal is minimal or nulled out. Nulls are sharp vs. broad pattern, but one has to be aware of them and understand the difference between the pattern and polarization. Yuri, K3BU.us High Yuri, I try again. Ratiation pattern As NVIS radiation comes from near 90 degrees elevation, the antenna receiving the incoming wave will operate at near maximum gain, no matter the orientation (in horizontal plane) of the dipole. The gain of a dipole under 75 degrees is less then 1 dB below the maximum. To orient your antenna to get a nul, you have to use a vertical dipole (or vertical monopole). So radiation pattern is not of importance. Polarization, If the ionosphere would act as a pure mirror reflector, and there was no free charge, you are right, orientation of both antennas would matter. As you do not know the amount of polarization change, you cannot predict the optimum orientation. Prove it yourself by using a hand held antenna (for example small vertical loop, or horizontal small dipole). Listen to an NVIS station (at about 50..100 mile from you) and rotate the antenna around the Z as. You should do this fast enough to distinguish between fading. You will find certain orientations with less reception, but the orientation (with minimum reception) will vary (that can be within a minute because of the change in overall faraday rotation). You will seldom find a real nul. This is because of the existence of a more or less circular component. If you want to be sure and also want to cover situations in which the refracted wave is almost linear polarized, you may consider two (small) antennas (perpendicular to each other) and switch between the two. During last year JOTA I had plenty of space to use two half wave dipoles, but it wasn't worth to do. I checked it with a simple hand held vertical tuned loop antenna by rotating the antenna round the Z- axis. Best regards, Wim |
#7
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"Yuri Blanarovich" wrote in
: "Dave Oldridge" wrote in message 9... Rick wrote in news ![]() On Mon, 09 Apr 2007 23:36:56 +0000, Dave Oldridge wrote: NVIS propagation is pretty high angle stuff. If you look at the three dimensional patterns for NVIS antennas you will see that they have a large lobe at high angles and an almost circular omnidirectional pattern at those angles. We're looking at 80 degrees and up mostly here, maybe 70 at the low end....so that antennas are mainly designed to illuminate the patch of ionosphere directly above the antenna. Right. That's my point. So, what I'm claiming ... and trying to get someone who knows more about this stuff than I do (which is just about all of you) to confirm or deny ... is that with an NVIS dipole, someone 100 miles away from me would not be able to perceive the difference if my antenna was broadside to him or oriented in line with him. True, or false? Absolutely true. Any difference would be insignificant. The path elevation is about 79 degrees for that path. -- Dave Oldridge+ ICQ 1800667 Absolutely??? So if you suspended another dipole above your NVIS dipole and oriented 90 degrees to each other, the difference would be insignificant? Then move it up into the "clouds", then move down to earth at the distance and you will see "insignificant" difference in signal levels? Seems that direction finders should not work according to this "verdict", Eh? And they don't actually work on NVIS signals unless you use them to measure elevation, in which case they point fairly high up. One thing is the direction of the signals (maximum) another one is the polarization. Based on the orientation of antennas, one can orient the antenna to find the minimum signal. You're assuming the ionosphere doesn't rotate the signal (or even render its polarization elliptical). Whether that's happening or not will likely depend on conditions at the time. But if it doesn't, then it doesn't matter which way the antennas are oriented in azimuth so long as they are both oriented the same. -- Dave Oldridge+ ICQ 1800667 |
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