Sometimes on the HF bands you will hear a conversation that goes something
like this:

"The antenna here is an extended double Zepp, hung up between two pine trees,
fed with 100 feet of open wire line."
Or
"The antenna here is a tribander up 50 feet on a crank up tower."

And the guy on the other side of the QSO will reply, "That antenna is doing a
geat job for you, you're 5 and 9 here."

My question is, How does he know? How does he know the antenna is doing a
great job? Because he hears you 5 by 9? Maybe your tribander has negative
gain, your coax has water in it, your RG58 is 300 feet long and your tuner is
not adjusted right. But he tells you he hears you loud, you work other
stations, you are happy, you believe your antenna system is working great.

Antenna performance is a state of mind ?? !!!!!

Some evidence -
There was a report put out by some west coast guys about 8 years ago. They
did a well documented study of gain of several commercial HF yagis. Many of
the newer models, the computer designed ones, outperformed some of the old
standbys. I remember (because I saw their presentation at Dayton) them saying
the KLM KT34 appeared to have its peak gain on 15 meters outside the band,
above 21.450 MHz, although it didn't have the problem on other bands. And the
one that most surprised me was the good old Mosely CL-33 had low gain,
measurably below the competition. I used to own a CL-33 and knew several
other hams who also did. I always was impressed with my beam, the way I could
turn it and peak up stations, turn it around and null them out, call DX and
they came back to me. A friend of mine had one mounted on his roof, 5 feet
over the attic, and was on the DX Honor Roll. So when I heard this report
about the lousy performance of a CL-33 I thought "Is it possible they are
RIGHT, that the CL-33s that thousands of hams owned may not actually work much
better than a dipole?" If an antenna had lossy traps I figured it would have
low gain but might still show the nice pattern that I observed with mine. How
then could these thousands of owners operate for so long with their CL-33s and
not know they were operating at such a disadvantage? Is it possible my friend
who is on the Honor Roll worked all that DX with a (let's say, because I
forget the actual number) 3 db disadvantage? Yeah, I guess so. Maybe he
called the DX a little longer, screamed a little ouder, but he got through,
and he thought part of the reason for his success was his antenna.

I now have a modern yagi. It works the WARC bands as well as 10-20 meters.
I'm happy with it if for no other reason than that. I get reports from DX
that the antenna is working great. They don't know what they are talking
about!!! But I like hearing it.

Next time someone tells you your antenna is working great, ask them
"How do you know?"

Rick K2XT

Rick wrote:
Next time someone tells you your antenna is working great, ask them
"How do you know?"

If the definition of "working great" is a 5x9
connection, 5x9 seems to be prima facie evidence.
--
73, Cecil http://www.w5dxp.com

If the definition of "working great" is a 5x9
connection, 5x9 seems to be prima facie evidence.

Couldn't it be working lousy but propagation still supported a 5 9 signal
report?

In the A3 thread today you can read this :

"Was much better on bandwidth and I got great signal
reports."

Might he still get some great signal reports if he had a 3 db attenuator in
the transmission line? Who would know?

hummmm.......


K2XT

"Rick" wrote in message
...
Sometimes on the HF bands you will hear a conversation that goes something
like this:

"The antenna here is an extended double Zepp, hung up between two pine
trees,
fed with 100 feet of open wire line."
Or
"The antenna here is a tribander up 50 feet on a crank up tower."

And the guy on the other side of the QSO will reply, "That antenna is
doing a
geat job for you, you're 5 and 9 here."

My question is, How does he know? How does he know the antenna is doing a
great job? Because he hears you 5 by 9? Maybe your tribander has
negative
gain, your coax has water in it, your RG58 is 300 feet long and your tuner
is
not adjusted right. But he tells you he hears you loud, you work other
stations, you are happy, you believe your antenna system is working great.

Antenna performance is a state of mind ?? !!!!!

Some evidence -
There was a report put out by some west coast guys about 8 years ago.
They
did a well documented study of gain of several commercial HF yagis. Many
of
the newer models, the computer designed ones, outperformed some of the old
standbys. I remember (because I saw their presentation at Dayton) them
saying
the KLM KT34 appeared to have its peak gain on 15 meters outside the band,
above 21.450 MHz, although it didn't have the problem on other bands. And
the
one that most surprised me was the good old Mosely CL-33 had low gain,
measurably below the competition. I used to own a CL-33 and knew several
other hams who also did. I always was impressed with my beam, the way I
could
turn it and peak up stations, turn it around and null them out, call DX
and
they came back to me. A friend of mine had one mounted on his roof, 5
feet
over the attic, and was on the DX Honor Roll. So when I heard this report
about the lousy performance of a CL-33 I thought "Is it possible they are
RIGHT, that the CL-33s that thousands of hams owned may not actually work
much
better than a dipole?" If an antenna had lossy traps I figured it would
have
low gain but might still show the nice pattern that I observed with mine.
How
then could these thousands of owners operate for so long with their CL-33s
and
not know they were operating at such a disadvantage? Is it possible my
friend
who is on the Honor Roll worked all that DX with a (let's say, because I
forget the actual number) 3 db disadvantage? Yeah, I guess so. Maybe he
called the DX a little longer, screamed a little ouder, but he got
through,
and he thought part of the reason for his success was his antenna.

I now have a modern yagi. It works the WARC bands as well as 10-20
meters.
I'm happy with it if for no other reason than that. I get reports from DX
that the antenna is working great. They don't know what they are talking
about!!! But I like hearing it.

Next time someone tells you your antenna is working great, ask them
"How do you know?"

Rick K2XT

Hi Rick

Probably the guys who say "Your antenna is working great" are the HAM
equivalent of those who answer the Cell Phone question "Can you hear me
now?". Perhaps if you were lucky enough to get many-many such reports
within a relatively short time, you could then evaluate your antenna.

Jerry

Hi Rick

I personally have tried to give meaningful signal reports over the years
but given the tools I have my options are pretty limited. The only real
useful report for a remote station is to compare them to someone nearby
to where they are, then add and subtract some maths based on differences
in power and supposed antenna gain.

You can of course also make judgments based on other signals you hear on
the band. Not real accurate though.

Then you have the problem of allowing for antenna vs optimum take off
angles when it comes to making gain assertions. Where you hang an
antenna will never be the same environment as where the manufacturer
tested theirs..

My 1c

Bob VK2YQA

Rick wrote:
Sometimes on the HF bands you will hear a conversation that goes something
like this:

Rick wrote:
If the definition of "working great" is a 5x9
connection, 5x9 seems to be prima facie evidence.

Couldn't it be working lousy but propagation still supported a 5 9 signal
report?

IMO, 5x9 is "great" by definition. :-)
--
73, Cecil http://www.w5dxp.com

Rick wrote:


And the guy on the other side of the QSO will reply, "That antenna is doing a
geat job for you, you're 5 and 9 here."

My question is, How does he know?

There are quite a number of factors, one being the type of
antenna. I have found that mine, for example, is affected
by the time of day, the condition of the ionosphere, and other
weird factors. As well, your transmitter might be working
better at the moment. Perhaps you are pressing harder on
the key or the PTT. It's all relative. :-)

Irv VE6BP

Funny thing that. I always use an Aerial and get great reports. Never
tried any insect antennas/antenni.
How do you make the coax/feeder connections and is the insect dead or
still alive?

And the guy on the other side of the QSO will reply, "That antenna is doing a
geat job for you, you're 5 and 9 here."

Bob Bob wrote in
:

angles when it comes to making gain assertions. Where you hang an
antenna will never be the same environment as where the manufacturer
tested theirs..

Quite an assumption Bob, that manufacturers perform meaningful tests on
their antennas and quote 3D gain.

Whilst there are no doubt some reputable antenna manufacturers, there are
plenty that resemble snake oil salesmen.

Not that it was a salesman, but I read the article describing the little
2.4GHz 2el quad, and the author (who also has a VK1 call, so must be an RF
neighbour of mine) noted that the noise increased when he pointed it at the
Sun, implying it was sufficiently sensitive to hear Sun noise. In
disbelief, I ran the numbers, and he would be more than 160dB shy of
reliably detecting sun noise... so there was some other explanation for his
observation.

Owen