Art wrote:
"No where can I find reference to "size" in what the masters state"


More diligence!

Terman never failed to have an answer for me. On page 864 of his 1955
0pus he writes:
"The simplest wire radiator or antenna is the elementary doublet shown
in Fig. 23-1a. This consists of a conductor of length small-delta l that
is short compared with the wavelength lambda, and which is assumed to
have such large capacitance areas associated with each end that current
flowing throughout the length of the doublet everywhere has the same
value I. The strength E of the field radiated from such an elementary
antenna in volts per unit length by a current I cos (omega t + 90
degrees) is given by the formula
E = 60 pi/d l/lambda Icos theta cos omega (t-d/c)
Eqn. (23-1)
Here d is the distance from the doublet to a distant receiving point P,
and theta is the direction of P with respect a plane perpendicular to
the axis of the doublet while c is the velocity of light. The strength
of the radiated field is distributed in space in accordance with the
doughnut pattern with a figure-of-eight cross section shown in Fig.
23-1b."

The above is only the beginning of Terman`s chapter on antennas. Fig.
23-2 shows how contributions from multiple doublets in a larger antenna
combine to produce the pattern of the larger antenna. Point to be noted
is that length over lambda is a multiplier in Eqn.(23-1). Obviously size
(length) does make a difference.

Best regards, Richard Harrison, KB5WZI

On Mar 7, 2:08 pm, (Richard Harrison) wrote:
Art wrote:

"No where can I find reference to "size" in what the masters state"

More diligence!

Terman never failed to have an answer for me. On page 864 of his 19550pus he writes:

"The simplest wire radiator or antenna is the elementary doublet shown
in Fig. 23-1a. This consists of a conductor of length small-delta l that
is short compared with the wavelength lambda, and which is assumed to
have such large capacitance areas associated with each end that current
flowing throughout the length of the doublet everywhere has the same
value I. The strength E of the field radiated from such an elementary
antenna in volts per unit length by a current I cos (omega t + 90
degrees) is given by the formula
E = 60 pi/d l/lambda Icos theta cos omega (t-d/c)
Eqn. (23-1)
Here d is the distance from the doublet to a distant receiving point P,
and theta is the direction of P with respect a plane perpendicular to
the axis of the doublet while c is the velocity of light. The strength
of the radiated field is distributed in space in accordance with the
doughnut pattern with a figure-of-eight cross section shown in Fig.
23-1b."

The above is only the beginning of Terman`s chapter on antennas. Fig.
23-2 shows how contributions from multiple doublets in a larger antenna
combine to produce the pattern of the larger antenna. Point to be noted
is that length over lambda is a multiplier in Eqn.(23-1). Obviously size
(length) does make a difference.

Best regards, Richard Harrison, KB5WZI

I disagree. Laws written are all based on the assumption of
equilibrium and that includes
Maxwell's laws. These laws hav e zero refernce to size as such though
many would seek
for the word volume. Pertinent factors are wave length of frequency in
use and root LC.
For equilibrium there is zero reference to size or volume. I ofcourse
fall back to the term equilibrium
which is a basic for Gauss's law of statics to which a variable time
can be added. Thus it can be seen that
a law can be stated that a radiator can be any size, shape or
configuration as long as it is in equilibrium.
The problem here is that amateur radio is wellded to the yagi design
which is not one of equilibrium
and the fact that amateurs and many of the higher educated have pushed
the term of equilibrium
outside the box. This shows up when the uneducated refer to small
antennas as being inefficient
based purely on the connection to a specific design without regard to
whether equilibrium exists
so that all the laws of the masters can be applied. Again, it is
implicite that all laws apply when
there is equilibrium, if there is not then the laws do not apply as
is.
With respect to the term
"length", this is not synonimous to "size" because it has only one
degree of freedom.
There is no reason why a radiator can be rolled up into any shape as
long as the laws of Maxwell
are adhered to and such a sample has been assigned for testing and I
have to be satisfied with the results
as they arrive.I will be soon using one on the radio for QSO's and I
apologise if its use offends anybody
Seems like the group is in quite a tizzy that a person would have a
small radiator that defies
that which has taken them years to memorize. I gave all pertinent
details how to make them
I also gave the mathematics and a sample where established computor
programs confirm the above
and now to upset all again I have given a sample for testing to a
independent reviewer.
There is no need for anybody to worry, Yagi designs still exist for
those who abore change,worry
about transmission line radiation or even radiators melting. When you
all understand the relevence of
equilibrium you can then procede to review the math, until then you
are all in left field.
Best regards
Art
There is nothing in Maxwells laws that prohibit a "wavelength" from
being condensed into the
size of a pinhead or smaller and still be "efficient" with respect to
stated paramitors.

"Art Unwin" wrote in message
...
On Mar 7, 2:08 pm, (Richard Harrison) wrote:
I disagree. Laws written are all based on the assumption of
equilibrium and that includes
Maxwell's laws. These laws hav e zero refernce to size as such though
many would seek

because contrary to what those male enhancement product adds tell you, size
doesn't matter.


for the word volume. Pertinent factors are wave length of frequency in

The problem here is that amateur radio is wellded to the yagi design
which is not one of equilibrium

WAIT JUST ONE GOSH DARN MINUTE! you have said in the past that the simple
half wave dipole WAS a prefect example of equilibrium! NOW it isn't???
have you had a new revelation while i had your old email address plonked??

On Mar 7, 4:45 pm, "Dave" wrote:
"Art Unwin" wrote in message

...

On Mar 7, 2:08 pm, (Richard Harrison) wrote:
I disagree. Laws written are all based on the assumption of
equilibrium and that includes
Maxwell's laws. These laws hav e zero refernce to size as such though
many would seek

because contrary to what those male enhancement product adds tell you, size
doesn't matter.

for the word volume. Pertinent factors are wave length of frequency in
The problem here is that amateur radio is wellded to the yagi design
which is not one of equilibrium

WAIT JUST ONE GOSH DARN MINUTE! you have said in the past that the simple
half wave dipole WAS a prefect example of equilibrium! NOW it isn't???
have you had a new revelation while i had your old email address plonked??

David,
You admit to not understanding the term "equilibrium" so what do you
care what I say and in what content.
If you consider a half wave dipole as being in equilibrium you have to
consider the electrical circuit
consisting of a capacitance from the antenna to ground or the route
thru the center of of the radiator, both of thes circuits
can be considered as being in equilibrium. However, on this newsgroup
a fractional wavelength radiator is considered as an open circuit for
some reason and thus under those circumstances the half wave dipole is
not in equilibrium.
Now your views on radiation is all over the place so it is very hard
for me to determine the context of what you say.
Art

"Art Unwin" wrote in message
...
On Mar 7, 4:45 pm, "Dave" wrote:
"Art Unwin" wrote in message

...

On Mar 7, 2:08 pm, (Richard Harrison) wrote:
I disagree. Laws written are all based on the assumption of
equilibrium and that includes
Maxwell's laws. These laws hav e zero refernce to size as such though
many would seek

because contrary to what those male enhancement product adds tell you,
size
doesn't matter.

for the word volume. Pertinent factors are wave length of frequency in
The problem here is that amateur radio is wellded to the yagi design
which is not one of equilibrium

WAIT JUST ONE GOSH DARN MINUTE! you have said in the past that the
simple
half wave dipole WAS a prefect example of equilibrium! NOW it isn't???
have you had a new revelation while i had your old email address
plonked??

David,
You admit to not understanding the term "equilibrium" so what do you
care what I say and in what content.
If you consider a half wave dipole as being in equilibrium you have to

no, it wasn't me that said that, you said that a half wave dipole was an
example of your equilibrium gaussian antenna. don't put words in my mouth,
i don't think any antenna is in 'equilibrium' if it is working right, there
is always a flow of power either in or out... equilibrium means not going
anywhere, i want my antennas to radiate and receive, not just sit there and
look pretty!

On Mar 7, 6:02 pm, "Dave" wrote:
"Art Unwin" wrote in message

...



On Mar 7, 4:45 pm, "Dave" wrote:
"Art Unwin" wrote in message

...

On Mar 7, 2:08 pm, (Richard Harrison) wrote:
I disagree. Laws written are all based on the assumption of
equilibrium and that includes
Maxwell's laws. These laws hav e zero refernce to size as such though
many would seek

because contrary to what those male enhancement product adds tell you,
size
doesn't matter.

for the word volume. Pertinent factors are wave length of frequency in
The problem here is that amateur radio is wellded to the yagi design
which is not one of equilibrium

WAIT JUST ONE GOSH DARN MINUTE! you have said in the past that the
simple
half wave dipole WAS a prefect example of equilibrium! NOW it isn't???
have you had a new revelation while i had your old email address
plonked??

David,
You admit to not understanding the term "equilibrium" so what do you
care what I say and in what content.
If you consider a half wave dipole as being in equilibrium you have to

no, it wasn't me that said that, you said that a half wave dipole was an
example of your equilibrium gaussian antenna. don't put words in my mouth,
i don't think any antenna is in 'equilibrium' if it is working right, there
is always a flow of power either in or out... equilibrium means not going
anywhere, i want my antennas to radiate and receive, not just sit there and
look pretty!

David, please plonk me again under my new server.
Thanks
Art

"Art Unwin" wrote in message
...
On Mar 7, 6:02 pm, "Dave" wrote:
"Art Unwin" wrote in message

...



On Mar 7, 4:45 pm, "Dave" wrote:
"Art Unwin" wrote in message

...

On Mar 7, 2:08 pm, (Richard Harrison)
wrote:
I disagree. Laws written are all based on the assumption of
equilibrium and that includes
Maxwell's laws. These laws hav e zero refernce to size as such
though
many would seek

because contrary to what those male enhancement product adds tell you,
size
doesn't matter.

for the word volume. Pertinent factors are wave length of frequency
in
The problem here is that amateur radio is wellded to the yagi design
which is not one of equilibrium

WAIT JUST ONE GOSH DARN MINUTE! you have said in the past that the
simple
half wave dipole WAS a prefect example of equilibrium! NOW it
isn't???
have you had a new revelation while i had your old email address
plonked??

David,
You admit to not understanding the term "equilibrium" so what do you
care what I say and in what content.
If you consider a half wave dipole as being in equilibrium you have to

no, it wasn't me that said that, you said that a half wave dipole was an
example of your equilibrium gaussian antenna. don't put words in my
mouth,
i don't think any antenna is in 'equilibrium' if it is working right,
there
is always a flow of power either in or out... equilibrium means not going
anywhere, i want my antennas to radiate and receive, not just sit there
and
look pretty!

David, please plonk me again under my new server.
Thanks
Art

why, you don't like someone to point out inconsistencies in your rantings?
i'll probably keep you un-plonked for a bit, wx is bad this weekend, no big
contests, and tx5c hasn't landed yet to listen to that zoo, so i could use
some entertainment.

On Mar 7, 6:09 pm, Art Unwin wrote:
On Mar 7, 4:45 pm, "Dave" wrote:







"Art Unwin" wrote in message

...

On Mar 7, 2:08 pm, (Richard Harrison) wrote:
I disagree. Laws written are all based on the assumption of
equilibrium and that includes
Maxwell's laws. These laws hav e zero refernce to size as such though
many would seek

because contrary to what those male enhancement product adds tell you, size
doesn't matter.

for the word volume. Pertinent factors are wave length of frequency in
The problem here is that amateur radio is wellded to the yagi design
which is not one of equilibrium

WAIT JUST ONE GOSH DARN MINUTE! you have said in the past that the simple
half wave dipole WAS a prefect example of equilibrium! NOW it isn't???
have you had a new revelation while i had your old email address plonked??

David,
You admit to not understanding the term "equilibrium" so what do you
care what I say and in what content.
If you consider a half wave dipole as being in equilibrium you have to
consider the electrical circuit
consisting of a capacitance from the antenna to ground or the route
thru the center of of the radiator, both of thes circuits
can be considered as being in equilibrium. However, on this newsgroup
a fractional wavelength radiator is considered as an open circuit for
some reason and thus under those circumstances the half wave dipole is
not in equilibrium.
Now your views on radiation is all over the place so it is very hard
for me to determine the context of what you say.
Art

Long before we rode our dinosaurs to club meetings the bright lights
had completely agreed that the strength of radio signals at far off
places was a function of the integral of i·dl where dl is the bigness
of the aerial. Maybe it's in Sears and Zemansky. I dunno . . nor do I
really care.

w3rv

On Mar 7, 6:13 pm, Brian Kelly wrote:
On Mar 7, 6:09 pm, Art Unwin wrote:



On Mar 7, 4:45 pm, "Dave" wrote:

"Art Unwin" wrote in message

....

On Mar 7, 2:08 pm, (Richard Harrison) wrote:
I disagree. Laws written are all based on the assumption of
equilibrium and that includes
Maxwell's laws. These laws hav e zero refernce to size as such though
many would seek

because contrary to what those male enhancement product adds tell you, size
doesn't matter.

for the word volume. Pertinent factors are wave length of frequency in
The problem here is that amateur radio is wellded to the yagi design
which is not one of equilibrium

WAIT JUST ONE GOSH DARN MINUTE! you have said in the past that the simple
half wave dipole WAS a prefect example of equilibrium! NOW it isn't???
have you had a new revelation while i had your old email address plonked??

David,
You admit to not understanding the term "equilibrium" so what do you
care what I say and in what content.
If you consider a half wave dipole as being in equilibrium you have to
consider the electrical circuit
consisting of a capacitance from the antenna to ground or the route
thru the center of of the radiator, both of thes circuits
can be considered as being in equilibrium. However, on this newsgroup
a fractional wavelength radiator is considered as an open circuit for
some reason and thus under those circumstances the half wave dipole is
not in equilibrium.
Now your views on radiation is all over the place so it is very hard
for me to determine the context of what you say.
Art

Long before we rode our dinosaurs to club meetings the bright lights
had completely agreed that the strength of radio signals at far off
places was a function of the integral of i·dl where dl is the bigness
of the aerial. Maybe it's in Sears and Zemansky. I dunno . . nor do I
really care.

w3rv

Nothing wrong with that with respect to yagis it just doesn't refer to
all antennas

"Brian Kelly" wrote in message
...
On Mar 7, 6:09 pm, Art Unwin wrote:
On Mar 7, 4:45 pm, "Dave" wrote:







"Art Unwin" wrote in message

...

On Mar 7, 2:08 pm, (Richard Harrison) wrote:
I disagree. Laws written are all based on the assumption of
equilibrium and that includes
Maxwell's laws. These laws hav e zero refernce to size as such though
many would seek

because contrary to what those male enhancement product adds tell you,
size
doesn't matter.

for the word volume. Pertinent factors are wave length of frequency in
The problem here is that amateur radio is wellded to the yagi design
which is not one of equilibrium

WAIT JUST ONE GOSH DARN MINUTE! you have said in the past that the
simple
half wave dipole WAS a prefect example of equilibrium! NOW it isn't???
have you had a new revelation while i had your old email address
plonked??

David,
You admit to not understanding the term "equilibrium" so what do you
care what I say and in what content.
If you consider a half wave dipole as being in equilibrium you have to
consider the electrical circuit
consisting of a capacitance from the antenna to ground or the route
thru the center of of the radiator, both of thes circuits
can be considered as being in equilibrium. However, on this newsgroup
a fractional wavelength radiator is considered as an open circuit for
some reason and thus under those circumstances the half wave dipole is
not in equilibrium.
Now your views on radiation is all over the place so it is very hard
for me to determine the context of what you say.
Art

Long before we rode our dinosaurs to club meetings the bright lights
had completely agreed that the strength of radio signals at far off
places was a function of the integral of i·dl where dl is the bigness
of the aerial. Maybe it's in Sears and Zemansky. I dunno . . nor do I
really care.

w3rv

Antennas for All Applications, 3rd Edition, Kraus & Marhefka, McGraw-Hill,
page 12.

Begin quote

Regardless of antenna type, all involve the same basic principle that
radiation is produced by accelerated (or decelerated) charge. The basic
equation of radiation may be expressed simply as

IL = Qv (A m / s)

where

I = time-changing current, A/s
L = length of current element, m
Q = charge, C
v = time change of velocity which equals the acceleration of the charge, m/s

Thus, time-changing current radiates and accelerated charge radiates. For
steady-state harmonic variation, we usually focus on current. For transients
or pulses, we focus on charge. The radiation is perpendicular to the
acceleration, and the radiated power is proportional to the square of IL or
Qv.

end quote

Cheers,
John