Cecil Moore wrote:

...
Actually, if God knows the future, the future is fixed,
everything is predestined, and we do not have free will.
If God already knew everything about this posting of
mine before I made it, I had no choice but to make it
using these exact words.

Actually, I have heard this argument(s)/discussion(s) since a very early
age.

I see no conflict between me having complete free choice and the ability
to control my destiny exactly as I see fit, or change my mind to fit
me--right along side an all-knowing mind who has already seen every
decision and change of heart I will have in my lifetime (the future is
there for me to discover and make my decisions to influence--but
he/she/it/the-aliens has/have already "been there, seen that!" ... )

What am I missing?

Regards,
JS

John Smith wrote:
What am I missing?

Even if an omnipotent being is not omniscient, he is.:-)
--
73, Cecil http://www.w5dxp.com

Cecil Moore wrote:

...
Even if an omnipotent being is not omniscient, he is.:-)

As soon as I "cement" what can happen in my mind, or the realm of
possibilities, I also change what will happen ...

How can I limit a God (aliens, etc.) I cannot even begin to fathom,
indeed, how can anyone?

Perhaps time is like an infinite building of rooms, the past is but a
series of rooms in one direction from the "present room", the future an
endless series of rooms stretching the other direction. And, perhaps
God walks these rooms with the ease I do my own home ...

I hate to even do this speculation, as I begin to place limits which may
divert me away from envisioning other possibilities ... when we know
more about time, we will finally be able to make far better guesstimates.

When something is truly "unknown", it is truly unknown ...

Regards,
JS

John Smith wrote:
When something is truly "unknown", it is truly unknown ...

Unfortunately, with an omniscient God, the future is known
and cannot be changed by your "free will".
--
73, Cecil http://www.w5dxp.com

Cecil Moore wrote:
John Smith wrote:
When something is truly "unknown", it is truly unknown ...

Unfortunately, with an omniscient God, the future is known
and cannot be changed by your "free will".

Well, we are now focused on the crux of the matter, alright.

However, I see him/her/it/the-aliens only being able to view the after
effects of my free will ... in my speculation(s) of how-this-all-works,
of course.

I see the mind of God as having similarities to my own (man created in
Gods' image--it is most difficult for me to see it any other way.) He
would not conduct an "experiment" in which he controlled all action;
the reason? Too boring. The variable is my freewill which provides the
seed-of-chaos, however, one piece of equipment in "his laboratory"
allows him to view the final outcome(s), and ahead of me experiencing
the same.

But then, I have nothing to argue against the way you would envision it
.... can we agree to wonder until some point in the future offers a proof
worth extrapolating from?

Or, in other words, the only horse I have in the race is curiosity of
"the truth."

Regards,
JS

John Smith wrote:
However, I see him/her/it/the-aliens only being able to view the after
effects of my free will ... in my speculation(s) of how-this-all-works,
of course.

Then, by definition, he/she/it/the-aliens are not omniscient.
--
73, Cecil http://www.w5dxp.com

Cecil Moore wrote:
John Smith wrote:
However, I see him/her/it/the-aliens only being able to view the after
effects of my free will ... in my speculation(s) of
how-this-all-works, of course.

Then, by definition, he/she/it/the-aliens are not omniscient.

Cecil:

Or, put simply, "The only think know for certain is, I (or, anyone for
that matter) don't know for certain!"

Regards,
JS

"Cecil Moore" wrote in message
...
John Smith wrote:
When something is truly "unknown", it is truly unknown ...

Unfortunately, with an omniscient God, the future is known
and cannot be changed by your "free will".
--
73, Cecil http://www.w5dxp.com

Now I realize that some of you are non-believers, so for you this is an
exercise.

It's would be pretty arrogant to consider that you have the ability to screw
up God's plan. We can't even be sure that Satan screwed up God's plan, but
it appears that there is some contention that is/was/does exist in the
heavenly realm.

Now consider that he allowed your being to come into existence perhaps for a
purpose. OK that is implied in scripture.

Now consider that you don't know what your future is even if God
pre-ordained it. If you did, what good would it do you and wouldn't that
influence your choices? Only Jesus was in on His future from the beginning
and knew how his life would play out and even tipped off the Disciples piece
by piece throughout his ministry. Even told them in real time what was
happening as it happened and how it was foretold in earlier scriptures by
the profits. This shows him to be familiar with numerous events in time and
how they play out together and the significance. It has been postulated in
a regular radio series that the Bible is a sophisticated messaging system
outside of our time domain planted by God to relay information about our
past present and future to future generations.

Now consider that Moses negotiated with God over who would do the talking to
Pharaoh and God relented and let Arron do the talking while Moses did the
signs. But God revealed to Moses how Pharaoh would respond and how the
whole scene would play out. That's a real mind blower. This shows that
some could actually have been doomed while some obstinate and sinful people
could still negotiate some things with God and even make bad choices,
although risking serious consequences for some of those choices.

So were left with this:

God's plan won't be usurped, but we can petition Him with prayer over some
points. This leads us to another possible conclusion.

Perhaps there are parts of his plan designed to allow for us to make a
variety of choices despite his intention for us. So you DO have free will
even if he already knows how you will choose. It has been stated by Jesus
that He came so that none should perish but all could come to repentance,
have life everlasting, have life abundantly and other statements to that
effect given the shortcomings of language. This implies that we really DO
have choices even though it doesn't quite make sense unless Jesus really did
make a change where someone like Moses' Pharaoh could now have a choice. It
also allows the possibility that if one missed an opportunity, there could
be an infinite number of others that do his will anyway.

I don't like to delve too deep into this because there is a lot to learn bit
by bit and we run risks by jumping to conclusions beyond our understanding.
I merely note some interesting points from Genesis, Exodus, Matthew, Mark,
Luke, John. I'm not much for citation of scripture and verse because I
believe context is far more important than throwing one liners at people.

JB wrote:
So you DO have free will
even if he already knows how you will choose.

"Not only does God play dice, He throws them where
we cannot see them." Steven Hawkings
--
73, Cecil http://www.w5dxp.com

"JB" wrote in news:gQ2vk.206$Af3.111@trnddc06:


God's plan won't be usurped, but we can petition Him with prayer over
some points. This leads us to another possible conclusion.

I was listening to a preacher just last night.

According to him, All is preordinated. God knows the outcome of everything
and every single thing that has and will ever happen. All is predestinated.
This has been known from before he created the unuverse

Do your prayers make any difference, they really don't, because God knew
you were going to pray, and he knew his response. You had no choice. You
did what you did because God made you do it that way.

This of course means that God knows the predestination of every person he
created, which means that he knew that he was knowingly condemming a whole
lot of people to an eternity of torture.

Nice guy.