On Wed, 15 Apr 2009 05:55:34 -0500, Cecil Moore
wrote:

Richard Clark wrote:
On Tue, 14 Apr 2009 20:35:00 -0500, Cecil Moore
engaged in a conspiracy

Hmm, Trilateral commission?

It was tongue-in-cheek humor, Richard.

Ah! That is what you thought I was thinking you were thinking I
thought and you were wrong twice, right once and on the third hand was
a draw.

On Wed, 15 Apr 2009 11:38:37 -0500, Cecil Moore
wrote:

setup that I used to measure a ~25 nS delay through
a 75m bugcatcher coil at 4 MHz.

http://www.w5dxp.com/coiltest.GIF

This is just a cartoon with the caption:
"Magik happens here."

Cecil Moore wrote:
Jim Kelley wrote:
And yet you keep posting your calculations and claiming to have made
measurements.

As have w7el and w8ji. All their measurements proved
is that standing wave current doesn't change phase
relative to the feedpoint current phase. They did
not measure the delay through a coil. They measured
the phase shift through the coil using a current that
doesn't change phase relative to the two measurement
points. The same thing happens with a wire.

To measure the actual delay through a coil, traveling
wave current must be used. I am apparently the only
one who ran that actual experiment. I guarantee if
anyone performs that experiment in a valid manner,
they will see similar results to mine. Here's the
setup that I used to measure a ~25 nS delay through
a 75m bugcatcher coil at 4 MHz.

http://www.w5dxp.com/coiltest.GIF

You should be able to achieve that setup in your
physics lab.

Did you figure out the Z0 of your coil using the Tesla coil
math, and then just assume there were no standing waves, or did
you prove the absence of standing waves through experiment?
73,
Tom Donaly, KA6RUH

On Wed, 15 Apr 2009 10:08:21 -0700, "Tom Donaly"
wrote:

Cecil Moore wrote:
they will see similar results to mine.
Did you figure out the Z0 of your coil using the Tesla coil
math, and then just assume there were no standing waves, or did
you prove the absence of standing waves through experiment?

Hi Tom,

There is only the hint of a gejoken experiment. I notice nothing
other than a cartoon, and nothing in the way of instrumentation
described, much less the vaunted "results" (no doubt the final
metaphysical tabulation came from some alchemistry). Certainly no
antenna (nor dish reflector that matter). How it relates to a loaded
short monopole would probably provoke an essay as elaborate as the
coronation oratory for a pope.

73's
Richard Clark, KB7QHC

Richard Clark wrote:
On Wed, 15 Apr 2009 10:08:21 -0700, "Tom Donaly"
wrote:

Cecil Moore wrote:
they will see similar results to mine.
Did you figure out the Z0 of your coil using the Tesla coil
math, and then just assume there were no standing waves, or did
you prove the absence of standing waves through experiment?

Hi Tom,

There is only the hint of a gejoken experiment. I notice nothing
other than a cartoon, and nothing in the way of instrumentation
described, much less the vaunted "results" (no doubt the final
metaphysical tabulation came from some alchemistry). Certainly no
antenna (nor dish reflector that matter). How it relates to a loaded
short monopole would probably provoke an essay as elaborate as the
coronation oratory for a pope.

73's
Richard Clark, KB7QHC

Hi Richard,
Cecil has never been too effective when it comes to doing
experiments. When asked to do math, he's even more sunk. I'm surprised
he even managed to do a "gejoken" experiment.
73,
Tom Donaly, KA6RUH

Tom Donaly wrote:
Did you figure out the Z0 of your coil using the Tesla coil
math, and then just assume there were no standing waves, or did
you prove the absence of standing waves through experiment?

The standing waves don't have to be eliminated,
just reduced until the traveling wave dominates
the waveform. I added 600 ohm non-inductive
resistors in series until the reflections were
negligible and the traveling wave dominated the
waveform.
--
73, Cecil, IEEE, OOTC, http://www.w5dxp.com

Richard Clark wrote:
I notice nothing other than a cartoon, ...

I'm sorry if this seems like rocket science
to you. I used toroidal pickups at the current
sample points and viewed the current waveforms
on a 100 MHz dual-trace oscilloscope.
--
73, Cecil, IEEE, OOTC, http://www.w5dxp.com

Cecil Moore wrote:

The standing waves don't have to be eliminated,
just reduced until the traveling wave dominates
the waveform. I added 600 ohm non-inductive
resistors in series until the reflections were
negligible and the traveling wave dominated the
waveform.

So why do you have to go to all that trouble when you want to measure
traveling wave current, but not when you want to measure traveling wave
energy?

ac6xg

Jim Kelley wrote:
So why do you have to go to all that trouble when you want to measure
traveling wave current, but not when you want to measure traveling wave
energy?

When one measures traveling wave energy, one
is measuring an average calculated scalar value
usually forward power minus reflected power or
RMS V*I in a dummy load resistor.

When one is measuring delay, one is measuring
instantaneous traveling wave phase in real time.
Trigger on the zero crossing of the input signal
and measure the delay until the output signal
crosses zero.

That delay measurement doesn't work for standing-
wave current because the zero-crossing on the
input and output occur virtually simultaneously,
i.e. there is no relative phase shift between
input and output or between any two points on a
1/4WL wire monopole.
--
73, Cecil, IEEE, OOTC, http://www.w5dxp.com

On Wed, 15 Apr 2009 15:18:51 -0500, Cecil Moore
wrote:

Richard Clark wrote:
I notice nothing other than a cartoon, ...

I'm sorry if this seems like rocket science
to you.

And this from the cartoonist.

It readily explains how poorly the gejoken experiment started. Let's
see how many yuks it will get through conventional issues

I used toroidal pickups at the current
sample points and viewed the current waveforms
on a 100 MHz dual-trace oscilloscope.

No mention of make, no readings, no pretense at discussion of those
things that contribute to error (and, as such, no need for Cecil to
apologize for being wrong until he is painted into his usual corner).

So, from this sloppiness called
anyone performs that experiment in a valid manner,
I suppose I have to fill in the blanks and watch Cecil sputter that it
wasn't like that at ALL!!! The cartoonist is most comfortable in
simple things, certainly; but measurement is best left to
professionals.

measure a ~25 nS delay
which is the same as a 40 MHz event, but in some "100 MHz" scopes, and
depending upon a myriad of settings (anyone practiced in the art would
realize how many), signal amplitude being one; that same BW can tumble
to 20 MHz to the unsuspecting user's surprise (Cecil can now react in
mock surprised shock). With a roll-off of 3dB per octave (another
concept that is foreign to digital engineers, such is Cecil's legacy),
phase measurement errors begin to run away. We don't even get the
Sunday comics form of math!

OK, so
measure a ~25 nS delay
is so much of a hodge-podge, a place marker, a spit into the wind,
something summoned up for the unwashed so the author could bask in
their awe-shucks. If we were to simply accept it (GASP!), what does
it say of the delay introduction of the
toroidal pickups at the current sample points

More magik happens here no doubt. I won't ask Cecil what his data is
for these items because he doesn't have any (at least until he
rummages up the dutch courage to fake it).

And what about the phase issues of the 4000 Ohm resistor (which
conveniently snubs what might be found in the rest of the antenna now
long discarded such that this becomes an onanistic exercise)? Again,
no point in asking for data that doesn't exist (you can't even fake
it). Magik abounds because Cecil's best work is cartoonistry, not
science, and certainly not rocket science.

So, a very quick enumeration of points any experimenter would have
come into the discussion with, rather than trailing behind like a
dancing bear with blisters.

But I like gejoken experiments, and Cecil's clowning offers the
dovetail to Art's when he isn't here complaining about the nails in
his hands. I would give this, maybe, 3 yuks.

73's
Richard Clark, KB7QHC