Lostgallifreyan wrote in
:

undeed

Un-needed. Some typos shall not pass.

In article ,
Lostgallifreyan wrote:

The way I see it (hopefully this is right) is that those deep level
variations really DO need smoothing out as described there, because they
represent signal loss greater than is likely to be caused by other errors
like basic mismatches, and possible overload at peaks as Europe has many
strong SW stations. Again, if I can use coax to increase SNR by reducing
noise out of nearby buildings, it reduces the problem to one of loss/gain.

Looking at it from the opposite angle, though: it's fairly common in
the HF bands for the signal level isn't the limiting factor in your
reception. Even an inefficiently-matched antenna can deliver enough
signal to overcome the self-noise of the front-end circuitry in your
receiver.

What limits your ability to receive, under these conditions, is band
noise and other spurious signals, which "drown out" the desired
signal. Improving the antenna matching wil have little or no benefit
in dealing with external noise. Neither will a preamp.

Now, using coax as a way of excluding some of the close-in interferers
isn't a bad idea at all. What you might want to consider doing, is
adding an active buffer at the longwire-to-coax feedpoint...
basically, a low-gain preamp (a few dB) designed to drive a 50-ohm
load efficiently and to overcome the (slight) signal losses in the
coax. Some people seem to favor the grounded-base or grounded-gate
broadband amplifier, as it has a modest gain, can be quite stable, and
has a good resistance to strong-signal overload. You could use a DC
inserter/block system to feed 9-12 volts up the same coax which
carries the signal down.

If you're really concerned about matching the resulting coax-carried
signal to your radio's antenna input, you could wind a fixed-ratio
broadband transformer with the correct impedance ratio.

--
Dave Platt AE6EO
Friends of Jade Warrior home page: http://www.radagast.org/jade-warrior
I do _not_ wish to receive unsolicited commercial email, and I will
boycott any company which has the gall to send me such ads!

(Dave Platt) wrote in :

What limits your ability to receive, under these conditions, is band
noise and other spurious signals, which "drown out" the desired
signal. Improving the antenna matching wil have little or no benefit
in dealing with external noise. Neither will a preamp.


Point taken, at least with the matching vs noise. Others have said it won't
matter much and I see why. preamp might be another issue though, especially
in light of 'amdx's post:

"http://www.kongsfjord.no/dl/Antennas/The%20Best%20Small%20Antennas%20For%20M
W,%20LW,%20And%20SW%20rev%202.pdf

The start page for that link is here;
http://www.kongsfjord.no/dl/dl.htm"

Now, using coax as a way of excluding some of the close-in interferers
isn't a bad idea at all. What you might want to consider doing, is
adding an active buffer at the longwire-to-coax feedpoint...
basically, a low-gain preamp (a few dB) designed to drive a 50-ohm
load efficiently and to overcome the (slight) signal losses in the
coax. Some people seem to favor the grounded-base or grounded-gate
broadband amplifier, as it has a modest gain, can be quite stable, and
has a good resistance to strong-signal overload. You could use a DC
inserter/block system to feed 9-12 volts up the same coax which
carries the signal down.


This is a good idea, though maybe the one I learned and reposted might do
better, it has a very attractive aspect, as it drives a simple speaker wire.
That stuff is cheap, (even the heavy stuff is cheap and durable, I use it
already for solar power..), and effectively forms a very low loss balanced
current loop that is isolated entirely from any current path anywhere else. I
wouldn't even have to bury the feed line, I could likely just run it along
the guide wire in a nearby chainlink fence or whatever is convenient because
it will very effectively reject common mode noise. It might still benefit
from a preamp current driver at the far end but as it uses a low impedance
input at the near end to take care of common mode noise it should be fine,
and a lot easier to get power to.

If you're really concerned about matching the resulting coax-carried
signal to your radio's antenna input, you could wind a fixed-ratio
broadband transformer with the correct impedance ratio.


Might try that, though more as an effort to extend learning than any need.
Right now I'm really glad I asked here because these answers are good, and I
now seem to have a better idea (the vertical long whip and balanced feed and
Norton preamp scheme) than the longwire-and-balun-and-coax I'd originally
intended. I haven't yet verified the new idea but it appears to be from
someone who has demonstrated capability among a group of radio hams, and it
certainly fits with what I know without contraindications, and it would be
much easier to arrange safely and discreetly than any other scheme I've seen.
The author even states permanently retiring his longwires and inverted L's
and so forth in favour of a phased array of two of the vertical whip. I
haven't got the 60 feet of space for the two he specifies, but I think I'll
do ok with one.

"Lostgallifreyan" wrote in message
. ..
"amdx" wrote in
:

Well most tuner/antenna matcher are designed to take the impedance that
the
antenna cable presents and transformer it to 50 ohms. Your problem is the
Sangean is probably not 50 ohms.

Ah, but in reverse? I don't know if this is good thinking, but if the
coax
IS 50 ohms, could I not put the 50 ohm connection onto the coax and tweak
the
other end (on the input instead of the coax) impedance by watching the
signal
strength meter on the receiver?


Ideally you would adjust the impedance of the antenna to match 50 ohms
then attach your 50 ohm coax, then connect to a 50 ohm receiver. (you don't
have)
But trying to adjust an antenna that is way out there (say 4000 ohms with
200 Reactance)
from the shack is not an easy task.


(Might be undeed according to posts people made earlier that suggest that
losses here might matter less than what happens on the longwire end of the
coax).

I'm in agreement with those that say just put up a wire and listen.
Then pick your favorite band and put up a resonant antenna and compare the
two.
Then your learning something.
Mike

"amdx" wrote in
:

(Might be undeed according to posts people made earlier that suggest
that losses here might matter less than what happens on the longwire
end of the coax).

I'm in agreement with those that say just put up a wire and listen.
Then pick your favorite band and put up a resonant antenna and compare
the two.
Then your learning something.
Mike


Right now I have no idea what my favourite band might be. I'll try the
basic wire, I used to try that many years ago as a kid, in places where it
was easy, on private land with space for it. But that was the seventies, in
the country. Now I'm in an inner city full of mobile phones and computers,
things have changed so much that I know it won't be the same. I like that 18'
whip scheme you linked to though, I really like that one and want to try it.

"Lostgallifreyan" wrote in message
. ..
(Dave Platt) wrote in
:

What limits your ability to receive, under these conditions, is band
noise and other spurious signals, which "drown out" the desired
signal. Improving the antenna matching wil have little or no benefit
in dealing with external noise. Neither will a preamp.


Point taken, at least with the matching vs noise. Others have said it
won't
matter much and I see why. preamp might be another issue though,
especially
in light of 'amdx's post:

"http://www.kongsfjord.no/dl/Antennas/The%20Best%20Small%20Antennas%20For%20M
W,%20LW,%20And%20SW%20rev%202.pdf

The start page for that link is here;
http://www.kongsfjord.no/dl/dl.htm"

Now, using coax as a way of excluding some of the close-in interferers
isn't a bad idea at all. What you might want to consider doing, is
adding an active buffer at the longwire-to-coax feedpoint...
basically, a low-gain preamp (a few dB) designed to drive a 50-ohm
load efficiently and to overcome the (slight) signal losses in the
coax. Some people seem to favor the grounded-base or grounded-gate
broadband amplifier, as it has a modest gain, can be quite stable, and
has a good resistance to strong-signal overload. You could use a DC
inserter/block system to feed 9-12 volts up the same coax which
carries the signal down.


This is a good idea, though maybe the one I learned and reposted might do
better, it has a very attractive aspect, as it drives a simple speaker
wire.
That stuff is cheap, (even the heavy stuff is cheap and durable, I use it
already for solar power..), and effectively forms a very low loss balanced
current loop that is isolated entirely from any current path anywhere
else. I
wouldn't even have to bury the feed line, I could likely just run it along
the guide wire in a nearby chainlink fence or whatever is convenient
because
it will very effectively reject common mode noise. It might still benefit
from a preamp current driver at the far end but as it uses a low impedance
input at the near end to take care of common mode noise it should be fine,
and a lot easier to get power to.

If you're really concerned about matching the resulting coax-carried
signal to your radio's antenna input, you could wind a fixed-ratio
broadband transformer with the correct impedance ratio.


Might try that, though more as an effort to extend learning than any need.
Right now I'm really glad I asked here because these answers are good, and
I
now seem to have a better idea (the vertical long whip and balanced feed
and
Norton preamp scheme) than the longwire-and-balun-and-coax I'd originally
intended. I haven't yet verified the new idea but it appears to be from
someone who has demonstrated capability among a group of radio hams, and
it
certainly fits with what I know without contraindications, and it would be
much easier to arrange safely and discreetly than any other scheme I've
seen.


The author even states permanently retiring his longwires and inverted L's
and so forth in favour of a phased array of two of the vertical whip.

Yes, I was a little diappointent, I remembered seeing a lot of other
antennas
from Dallas, but they seem to have been removed them from the site. I guess
once
he finds something that works better and is not terribly difficult to make,
he
drops previous setups.
Mike

In article ,
Lostgallifreyan wrote:

Right now I have no idea what my favourite band might be. I'll try the
basic wire, I used to try that many years ago as a kid, in places where it
was easy, on private land with space for it. But that was the seventies, in
the country. Now I'm in an inner city full of mobile phones and computers,
things have changed so much that I know it won't be the same. I like that 18'
whip scheme you linked to though, I really like that one and want to try it.

Lost-

I agree that the "basic wire" antenna approach will almost certainly
work. At least you will get your feet wet. That is the kind of
external antenna most often used with that type of radio.

If you want to continue the search for input impedance, consider trying
something like an MFJ Antenna Analyzer (MFJ-259 or 269?), which uses a
sufficiently low signal level that it shouldn't hurt the radio. Instead
of analyzing the antenna, use it to analyze the input of the radio. You
can use the information to design a matching circuit, but you may find
that the improvement is disappointing for reasons already discussed.

Fred
K4DII

Bob wrote in
:

You might shoot an email to tech at C.Crane Co. -- a lot of their
branded radios are actually customized Sangeans...they might be able
to tell you the most effective antenna and/or the impedance of the
thing.

bob
k5qwg


I got a reply, but Sangean didn't tell them that either. But he says what
many here do, that it doesn't matter that much, and that 50 ohm line should
be ok.

One thing that keeps coming up is the need to make my own transformer for the
far end, whatever scheme I use, and in that context I often see mention of a
ferrite co Amidon FT-114-75 (AL about 3000, permeability u=5000, about
1.14 inch outside diameter as described on one page). Cheap but apparently
not easy to find in Britain. Does anyone know a current source of something
equivalent to it? It's beginning to look like I should get a small handful of
them. Another thing that might be better fetched locally is something like
the broadband preamp for LW to 30 MHz sold by Kiwa Electronics. If anyone
knows of one, please point me to it.. It's a Norton balanced input amp with
gain of around 10 dB. Even if I don't need it I'd like to know where to find
such things locally. I can likely build something based on the Dallas design
in a PDF I found but a good picture of the construction would help, as I
can't easily visualise the coil and former arrangements from the schematic.

Fred McKenzie wrote in
:

In article ,
Lostgallifreyan wrote:

Right now I have no idea what my favourite band might be. I'll try
the basic wire, I used to try that many years ago as a kid, in places
where it was easy, on private land with space for it. But that was the
seventies, in the country. Now I'm in an inner city full of mobile
phones and computers, things have changed so much that I know it won't
be the same. I like that 18' whip scheme you linked to though, I really
like that one and want to try it.

Lost-

I agree that the "basic wire" antenna approach will almost certainly
work. At least you will get your feet wet. That is the kind of
external antenna most often used with that type of radio.

If you want to continue the search for input impedance, consider trying
something like an MFJ Antenna Analyzer (MFJ-259 or 269?), which uses a
sufficiently low signal level that it shouldn't hurt the radio. Instead
of analyzing the antenna, use it to analyze the input of the radio. You
can use the information to design a matching circuit, but you may find
that the improvement is disappointing for reasons already discussed.

Fred
K4DII


I'll pass. I think the reason no-one knows is that as you (and others)
say, it's not important enough. What does seem important is to try to reduce
localised noise, and to break the current link to protect the radio input
from static discharges. Whether I use coax or a balanced loop made from
speaker wire, it loooks like my next step is to get Amidon FT-114-75 ferrite
cores to play with, and in Britain I can't easily do that, but if anyone
knows a local direct equivalent to them I can try that. I'll Google for
things that fit the description (AL about 3000, permeability u=5000, about
1.14 inch outside diameter) but I think it's wise to ask here to try to save
time.

In article ,
Lostgallifreyan wrote:

I'll pass. I think the reason no-one knows is that as you (and others)
say, it's not important enough. What does seem important is to try to reduce
localised noise, and to break the current link to protect the radio input
from static discharges. Whether I use coax or a balanced loop made from
speaker wire, it loooks like my next step is to get Amidon FT-114-75 ferrite
cores to play with, and in Britain I can't easily do that, but if anyone
knows a local direct equivalent to them I can try that. I'll Google for
things that fit the description (AL about 3000, permeability u=5000, about
1.14 inch outside diameter) but I think it's wise to ask here to try to save
time.

You can probably at least start your experimentation using the common
sort of interference-suppression ferrites that are found in many
computer accessories - e.g. molded onto DC cords, VGA cables, USB
cables, and so forth. Here in the U.S. these are easily available at
electronics surplus stores, ham-fest flea markets, and other such
sources.

In my experience, these tend to be a ferrite mix such as type 43,
which is optimized for use at somewhat higher frequencies than
HF/SWL... so they will probably not be optimal for your purposes.
However, they can be made to work.

A few years ago I constructed a common-mode feedline choke for our
local ARES/RACES ham station, to try to keep 40- and 80-meter signals
from being carried back down the outside of the coax and into the
building (our signal was audible on phones in the city's "911"
emergency dispatch center... *not* good). I took several tubular
computer-interference-suppression ferrite cores (large inner
diameter), glued them end-to-end with cyanoacrylate, let them dry, and
then ran some RG-8X coax through the center and back around the
outside and through the center again. The coax looped through the
tube of ferrites three times.

This resulted in an extremely effective common-mode choke. According
to my MFJ antenna analyzer, the impedance looking up through the coax
in the usual way (standard hookup, into a 50-ohm dummy load) was 50
ohms... the ferrites had no effect at all on the differential-mode
signal in the coax.

But, when I measured the impedance along the braid (i.e. from the
ground shell at one end of the coax, to the ground shell at the other...
a DC short circuit), I couldn't get a reading at any frequency... the
meter just said " 1500 ohms". Even at the lowest frequency of
interest, these non-optimal ferrites added so much inductance to the
common-mode signal path that they were blocking the feedline current
flow very effectively.

[Unfortunately, we determined that the phone interference was caused by
direct RF pickup by the phone wiring, which was in the "near field" of
the antenna above the roof. It occurred even if we completely
disconnected the building feedline, and fed the antenna directly from
a radio located up on the roof. The feedline choke couldn't help us.]

In your situation, I'd guess that you could probably make an efficient
feedline choke by using almost any surplus ferrite toroid which is
sufficiently large to wind your feedline (coax or speaker wire)
through it a few times. Or, use several surplus ferrite cores,
end-to-end, and if they're large enough in diameter, loop the feedline
down through the center more than once.

It won't be perfect (nor as good as if you used a ferrite optimized
for use at lower frequencies) but it will probably help matters, and
will give you some sense as to whether it makes sense to go to the
trouble and expense of buying ferrites that are better for your purpose.

--
Dave Platt AE6EO
Friends of Jade Warrior home page: http://www.radagast.org/jade-warrior
I do _not_ wish to receive unsolicited commercial email, and I will
boycott any company which has the gall to send me such ads!