On Sat, 29 May 2010 09:43:21 -0700 (PDT), walt wrote:

Apparently we have different editions of Terman.
Mine doesn't discuss R as the remnant of conjugation, so if only R is
considered in the image impedance I can concur with you on this issue.

Hi Walt,

Go to the index and look up Thévenin. The material should be found in
two areas:
1. Circuits with Lumped Constants - Thévenin's Theorem - Impedance
Matching
2. Audio Voltage Amplifiers - Resistance-coupled Amplifiers

Rp is a
non-dissipative resistance, not a resisTOR with physical
characteristics. I consider the voltage-current ratio R appearing at
the output of the tank circuit to be the source resistance of the RF
power amplifier. If you do not agree with this position then I guess
we'll just have to agree to disagree, unless you can find some way to
change my mind.

I will use your own data.

On Thu, 27 May 2010 19:32:40 -0700 (PDT), walt wrote:

In this condition the DC plate voltage is 800 v and plate
current is 260 ma. DC input power is therefore 800 v ? 0.26 a = 208 w.

I will be concerned with nothing else outside of this specification as
this is a discussion of the "real" Tube, and a power supply which will
be considered as loss-less.

First. There is one current loop throughout the entire system.

Second. Unique to a tube path within that current loop, there are two
characteristic current types. These are the convection current WITHIN
the cathode-plate interval, and the induction current that completes
the loop from plate to cathode through conventional power supply
wiring.

Third. The induction current's mobile electrons move at a rate of
meters per minute; whereas the charge mobility is near light speed.

Fourth. The convection current's mobile electrons (a literal particle
stream in a vacuum) move at a rate of near light speed. The term
"near light speed," in this case, is limited by the plate potential of
800V and can be computed; whereas the charge mobility is near light
speed, but generally higher (and specifically higher for 800V) than
the electron speed.

Fifth. It takes work to move an electron initially at rest to near
light speed over the interval between the cathode and the plate with
nanoseconds transit times.

Sixth. The electron gains kinetic energy from the field between the
plate and cathode.

Seventh. The kinetic energy of the electron is converted into heat
upon striking the plate, the heat energy being equal to the power
supply energy expended in accelerating the electron.

I will forgo the math of how considerable the resistance, power, and
heat is. All can be found from the data quoted above. Clearly, the
plate resistance is real in every sense of the word. It is the
limiting factor of the current path hence it is the source resistance
in every sense of the word.

The seven points I enumerate are from material drawn from a single
source. I am sending you the full chapter treatment that speaks to
this topic alone from:
"Physical Electronics," Curtis L. Hemenway, Richard W. Henry, Martin
Caulton; John Wiley and Sons, 1962.

Others may ask for copies of this reference. Others may ask where the
heat comes from, a topic I would enjoy elaborating upon. It is a very
simple explanation that by using Walt's data above, can be rendered
into Watts/Temperature with only the difficulty of pressing calculator
keys. These values than can weighed against real and tested
observation at the bench of the same tube in operation.

I cannot imagine anything else meriting discussion.

73's
Richard Clark, KB7QHC

Richard Clark Inscribed thus:

The seven points I enumerate are from material drawn from a single
source. I am sending you the full chapter treatment that speaks to
this topic alone from:
"Physical Electronics," Curtis L. Hemenway, Richard W. Henry, Martin
Caulton; John Wiley and Sons, 1962.

Others may ask for copies of this reference. Others may ask where the
heat comes from, a topic I would enjoy elaborating upon. It is a very
simple explanation that by using Walt's data above, can be rendered
into Watts/Temperature with only the difficulty of pressing calculator
keys. These values than can weighed against real and tested
observation at the bench of the same tube in operation.

I cannot imagine anything else meriting discussion.

73's
Richard Clark, KB7QHC

I would appreciate a copy of the above reference, if you would be so
kind. In order for me to continue following an interesting discussion.
Thankyou.
73's

--
Best Regards:
Baron.

On May 29, 4:39*pm, Baron wrote:
Richard Clark Inscribed thus:



The seven points I enumerate are from material drawn from a single
source. *I am sending you the full chapter treatment that speaks to
this topic alone from:
"Physical Electronics," Curtis L. Hemenway, Richard W. Henry, Martin
Caulton; John Wiley and Sons, 1962.

Others may ask for copies of this reference. *Others may ask where the
heat comes from, a topic I would enjoy elaborating upon. *It is a very
simple explanation that by using Walt's data above, can be rendered
into Watts/Temperature with only the difficulty of pressing calculator
keys. *These values than can weighed against real and tested
observation at the bench of the same tube in operation.

I cannot imagine anything else meriting discussion.

73's
Richard Clark, KB7QHC

I would appreciate a copy of the above reference, if you would be so
kind. *In order for me to continue following an interesting discussion.
Thankyou.
73's

--
Best Regards:
* * * * * * * * * * *Baron.

Hi Richard,

Thank you for sending the copy of the paper you referenced. I've been
reviewing it this afternoon. Although I understand that induced
current results from a moving charge, I'm not as comfortable
discussing the Rp issue in terms of charges as I am with currents, so
I'm having a little difficulty in coming to grips with Rp while
reviewing the paper. Consequently, I need a little more time
assimilating the info before replying further in hope of resolving our
difference on the subject.

I'll be back with you as soon as I'm ready.

Walt

Walt

On Sat, 29 May 2010 16:58:52 -0700 (PDT), walt wrote:

I'll be back with you as soon as I'm ready.

Hi Walt,

Thank you for keeping in touch. Others have asked for copies and will
be reading in tandem with you. Perhaps questions about it, or where
the heat comes from will arrive in your pause.

73's
Richard Clark, KB7QHC

On May 30, 12:32*am, Richard Clark wrote:
On Sat, 29 May 2010 16:58:52 -0700 (PDT), walt wrote:
I'll be back with you as soon as I'm ready.

Hi Walt,

Thank you for keeping in touch. *Others have asked for copies and will
be reading in tandem with you. *Perhaps questions about it, or where
the heat comes from will arrive in your pause.

73's
Richard Clark, KB7QHC

does it really matter what the mechanism of generating the heat is?
the fact that there is heat generated in the plate means there is
energy lost from the electrons, be it due to impinging on the plate
mechanically or due to the metal resistance it is still a loss of
energy. And since there is more heat when there is more plate current
we can model it as a real resistance. The only question is then, is
it linear or not. that should be a 'relatively' simple measurement,
and one that has likely been done by a researcher somewhere along the
line.

Baron Inscribed thus:

Richard Clark Inscribed thus:

The seven points I enumerate are from material drawn from a single
source. I am sending you the full chapter treatment that speaks to
this topic alone from:
"Physical Electronics," Curtis L. Hemenway, Richard W. Henry, Martin
Caulton; John Wiley and Sons, 1962.

Others may ask for copies of this reference. Others may ask where
the
heat comes from, a topic I would enjoy elaborating upon. It is a
very simple explanation that by using Walt's data above, can be
rendered into Watts/Temperature with only the difficulty of pressing
calculator
keys. These values than can weighed against real and tested
observation at the bench of the same tube in operation.

I cannot imagine anything else meriting discussion.

73's
Richard Clark, KB7QHC

I would appreciate a copy of the above reference, if you would be so
kind. In order for me to continue following an interesting
discussion. Thankyou.
73's


Copy received !
Thanks.

--
Best Regards:
Baron.

On Sat, 29 May 2010 11:21:58 -0700, Richard Clark
wrote:

On Sat, 29 May 2010 09:43:21 -0700 (PDT), walt wrote:

Apparently we have different editions of Terman.
Mine doesn't discuss R as the remnant of conjugation, so if only R is
considered in the image impedance I can concur with you on this issue.

Hi Walt,

Sniipped

The seven points I enumerate are from material drawn from a single
source. I am sending you the full chapter treatment that speaks to
this topic alone from:
"Physical Electronics," Curtis L. Hemenway, Richard W. Henry, Martin
Caulton; John Wiley and Sons, 1962.

Others may ask for copies of this reference. Others may ask where the
heat comes from, a topic I would enjoy elaborating upon. It is a very
simple explanation that by using Walt's data above, can be rendered
into Watts/Temperature with only the difficulty of pressing calculator
keys. These values than can weighed against real and tested
observation at the bench of the same tube in operation.

I cannot imagine anything else meriting discussion.

73's
Richard Clark, KB7QHC


Richard
Please send me a copy also.
Thanks much.
Dave Foreman