Close, but not quite.

An ISP will buy pipes, such as a DS3 that does 45Mbps, for a flat rate
per month. Theoretically the upstream provider doesn't care if 1 bps or
45 Mbps are passing through that pipe; from a billing perspective, they
get the same money. But they have to play the statistical game on how
much upstream pipe that they need to handle all the 45Mbps pipes they
sold to ISPs like you. And eventually you get to the backbone
providers, who have really really big pipes, and very expensive routers.

This "power user" thing is something I've never heard anyone in the
business speak of, so I have no idea why you would get bumped. If you
are not breaking the TOS agreement, ISPs don't care a rat's rear end how
much traffic you generate. You buy a pipe from the ISP and you have
every right to fill it if you can. The only exception to that would be
that you have a maximum number of hours or bytes per month. They won't
kick you if you exceed it, they just charge you an additional amount
that you agreed to in your contract with them. Some ISPs may do it a
bit differently, but that's fairly normal in the industry.

tom
K0TAR

Tyas_MT wrote:

"Reg Edwards" wrote in message
...

Anything which increases traffic volume benefits Internet service

providers.

Uhm no... If a normal customer is using more bandwidth (receiving and
sending more email, committing virus controlled DDoS attacks, etc) Internet
service providers LOSE MONEY. They pay by the byte, you don't. Most
customers pay a flat fee for internet access. This is true of most Cable,
DSL, ISDN, and Dial-up setups... they are priced based on an expectation of
'normal' usage, and the ISP loses money in 'extreme' usage cases. Why I ( a
'power user') get nasty emails from ISP's and have to switch often.... this
one is good about that though.

And I forgot to mention that almost all our customers are of the
unlimited type, so we don't don't monitor their traffic rate, or amount.

tom
K0TAR

Tom Ring wrote:

Close, but not quite.

An ISP will buy pipes, such as a DS3 that does 45Mbps, for a flat rate
per month. Theoretically the upstream provider doesn't care if 1 bps or
45 Mbps are passing through that pipe; from a billing perspective, they
get the same money. But they have to play the statistical game on how
much upstream pipe that they need to handle all the 45Mbps pipes they
sold to ISPs like you. And eventually you get to the backbone
providers, who have really really big pipes, and very expensive routers.

This "power user" thing is something I've never heard anyone in the
business speak of, so I have no idea why you would get bumped. If you
are not breaking the TOS agreement, ISPs don't care a rat's rear end how
much traffic you generate. You buy a pipe from the ISP and you have
every right to fill it if you can. The only exception to that would be
that you have a maximum number of hours or bytes per month. They won't
kick you if you exceed it, they just charge you an additional amount
that you agreed to in your contract with them. Some ISPs may do it a
bit differently, but that's fairly normal in the industry.

tom
K0TAR

Tom Ring wrote:
And I forgot to mention that almost all our customers are of the
unlimited type, so we don't don't monitor their traffic rate, or amount.

Are you offering dial-up service only, or cable modem/DSL services?

Where I live, cable modem users get well over a megabit per second of
bandwidth, and someone filling that connection 24 hours a day is going to
make a noticeable mark in the ISP's overall bandwidth usage.

DSL, dialup, T1, locally connected ethernet, wireless, P2P high speed
wireless.

And if they are doing a long term average of 1Mbps, they are very likely
breaking the TOS or have a virus or are doing file trading. Most people
just can't use that much as an average, and average is the important
word. I use a ton of bandwidth compared to a lot of people, but my long
term average is well below 50Kbps.

We manage a dormitory which is mostly grad students, and the people who
use large bandwidth are mostly file traders. These people can be
assigned to 2 groups - those who actively trade, and those who installed
a file trading program, used it and think they disabled it. Guess what,
many aren't disabled when you disable them. They may still search for
peers, and may also still run as an upload/download point even though
the computer owner thinks it's disabled. I deal with this once or twice
per week on a dorm with about 300 users.

Uninfected, non-file trading users average less than 10Kbps in/out even
though their connection is "free".

And 1Mbps sustained is fairly trivial and normal. It gets missed all
the time, at least for a while. Unfortunately it gets lost in the noise
until someone looks at ALL the MRTG graphs. And again, it may be
perfectly ok, not violating the TOS. Inwhich case all the ISP can do is
call the customer and make ask them to check for a virus. And maybe not
even that, depending on the fed and state laws.

tom
K0TAR

Joel Kolstad wrote:

Tom Ring wrote:

And I forgot to mention that almost all our customers are of the
unlimited type, so we don't don't monitor their traffic rate, or amount.


Are you offering dial-up service only, or cable modem/DSL services?

Where I live, cable modem users get well over a megabit per second of
bandwidth, and someone filling that connection 24 hours a day is going to
make a noticeable mark in the ISP's overall bandwidth usage.

Hi Tom

I'm not real adept at understanding much of the lingo, but you might
be able to answer a question for me.

I use standard 56k dialup. I assume that when I'm online I'm tying up
one of the ISP's modems. Therefore I never stay online longer than
necessary to get my work done. Although I know plenty of folks that
leave their computers on and connected all the time.

My late wife, after she had her major heart attack and could not leave
the house worked out an agreement with her employer to do her work at
home. This required staying on-line at least 8 hours a day connected
to her employer.
At first the ISP said 'no problem' you have an unlimited account.
But then they later came back and told us we needed a different
service, it was still dial-up, but in effect we owned our own modems
located in the ISP's racks.
After a couple of more heart attacks, she had to quit work completely.
I began using the sevice she was using for my regular dialup to
retrieve e-mail, read the newsgroups, surf the web, etc. About 3
hours a day.
I received a nasty note from the ISP saying I could not use that
service in place of normal dialup, it was set up strictly for my wifes
connection to her employer.
I switched back to my original dial-up unlimited account, but still
had to pay for the contract on the other dial-up account until it
expired.
Once it expired, I left that ISP and have been with my current one
ever since.

But lets get into a deeper question here.
I moved to a different state but am still using the ISP I have used
for years.
I assume that my home ISP has a joint account with many ISPs around
the country. I'm a ham radio operator and I can travel the country
and use repeaters as a guest, because I AM a member of a repeater
club.
But how does this work as far as ISP's go?
Should I change to a local ISP or is it OK to continue using one of
the POP presences. How does the ISP I'm calling make any money from
me?

TTUL
Gary

Well, that's a tough question, because the modems are a totally
different situation than bandwidth usage. Modems are a real piece of
hardware that you are tieing up. And some ISPs like to skimp on what is
relatively cheap hardware. We don't tell our unlimited users they have
the responsibility to disconnect, but we do disconnect them where
longest idle (no traffic) users get kicked if, and only if, we are near
to filling up our modem bank. It's a bit more complex algorithm than
that, but that's close enough to what goes on at our place. Generally
our users can and do stay connected until the power fails at their house.

No, I won't tell you who I work for, and no, it's not who I use. No, I
won't go into why I use who I do.

On the shared accounts between ISPs, yes that goes on, and I believe
it's based on trading the amount of service used between them, but I'm
not quite sure. If so it implies that there is cash transferred if the
hours used are mismatched. It's a large pool among lots of ISPs, there
may be more than one of these pools, and I have no idea how they really
address the balance. I live on the tech side, not the money side.

tom
K0TAR

Gary V. Deutschmann, Sr. wrote:
Hi Tom

I'm not real adept at understanding much of the lingo, but you might
be able to answer a question for me.

I use standard 56k dialup. I assume that when I'm online I'm tying up
one of the ISP's modems. Therefore I never stay online longer than
necessary to get my work done. Although I know plenty of folks that
leave their computers on and connected all the time.

My late wife, after she had her major heart attack and could not leave
the house worked out an agreement with her employer to do her work at
home. This required staying on-line at least 8 hours a day connected
to her employer.
At first the ISP said 'no problem' you have an unlimited account.
But then they later came back and told us we needed a different
service, it was still dial-up, but in effect we owned our own modems
located in the ISP's racks.
After a couple of more heart attacks, she had to quit work completely.
I began using the sevice she was using for my regular dialup to
retrieve e-mail, read the newsgroups, surf the web, etc. About 3
hours a day.
I received a nasty note from the ISP saying I could not use that
service in place of normal dialup, it was set up strictly for my wifes
connection to her employer.
I switched back to my original dial-up unlimited account, but still
had to pay for the contract on the other dial-up account until it
expired.
Once it expired, I left that ISP and have been with my current one
ever since.

But lets get into a deeper question here.
I moved to a different state but am still using the ISP I have used
for years.
I assume that my home ISP has a joint account with many ISPs around
the country. I'm a ham radio operator and I can travel the country
and use repeaters as a guest, because I AM a member of a repeater
club.
But how does this work as far as ISP's go?
Should I change to a local ISP or is it OK to continue using one of
the POP presences. How does the ISP I'm calling make any money from
me?

TTUL
Gary

Thanks Tom

My ISP boasts something like 1,500 POP presences accross the country.
So almost anywhere I travel, I can access my account just like I was
at home.

My ISP knows I have moved permanently to a different state and has had
to make changes to allow my access to things like newsfeeds etc.
Because he is relatively a small provider as compared to most others,
I have never found one better or as concerned about his users.

My take on the situation is, he probably has many more outside clients
of this ring he belongs to using his services as they travel, than
what our few members use outside of his service.
So, if there is a fee, he is probably on the receiving end if money is
involved.

Being totally illiterate about how the internet actually works, but
being conscious of the local end of the wire. I set my computers to
disconnect if idle for 5 minutes. But at the same time, I do spend at
least 4 hours per day on line.

As long as it's Kosher, I would like to remain with my current ISP!
But at the same time, I don't want to make whatever ISPs phone numbers
I am using to get disgruntled about it. I may be breaking a clause in
a contract between ISPs and not even knowing about it.
I have absolutely NO idea what ISPs I work through, as my own ISP
provides only the dialup telephone numbers we use nationwide.
Although, because I'm here permanently, he did give me a different
phone number to use that does not appear on the travelers list of
numbers.

Thanks for your input Tom!

TTUL - 73+ de Gary - KGØZP

Tom Ring wrote:
This "power user" thing is something I've never heard anyone in the
business speak of, so I have no idea why you would get bumped. If you
are not breaking the TOS agreement, ISPs don't care a rat's rear end how
much traffic you generate. You buy a pipe from the ISP and you have
every right to fill it if you can.

Yes, and the ISP has the right to simply stop offering you service as well.

BTW, the same thing happens with cell phone usage... many plans now have
'unlimited minutes,' but in actuality your usage is tracked and people who
use far, FAR more minutes than the average are usually sent warnings letters
or politely told that the provider no longer wishes to offer them service.

On Fri, 23 Apr 2004 19:03:39 -0500, Tom Ring
wrote:

Close, but not quite.

An ISP will buy pipes, such as a DS3 that does 45Mbps, for a flat rate
per month. Theoretically the upstream provider doesn't care if 1 bps or
45 Mbps are passing through that pipe; from a billing perspective, they
get the same money. But they have to play the statistical game on how
much upstream pipe that they need to handle all the 45Mbps pipes they
sold to ISPs like you. And eventually you get to the backbone
providers, who have really really big pipes, and very expensive routers.

This "power user" thing is something I've never heard anyone in the
business speak of, so I have no idea why you would get bumped. If you

I've been hearing the term ever since I got on the net and that was in
96 with my own site and in 87 through the colleges.

are not breaking the TOS agreement, ISPs don't care a rat's rear end how
much traffic you generate. You buy a pipe from the ISP and you have

Maybe you don't but many do.
They price their services based on an average user and they have a
multi tiered service.

Here if the average user is on 32 hours a month they don't complain
until you hit around 5 or 6 times the average user.

As I'm on DSL and networked 24 X 7 I pay a different rate than the
dial up customer.

Then even as a commercial user rates are based on the "bandwidth"
used. I have both a high bandwidth limit and a lot of storage, but if
my use, or my site generates traffic beyond a given point the rates go
up, or like many sites I've attempted to visit you find the "This site
has exceeded it's bandwidth limit for today", please try again
tomorrow.

every right to fill it if you can. The only exception to that would be
that you have a maximum number of hours or bytes per month. They won't
kick you if you exceed it, they just charge you an additional amount

Only if you have that agreement. Most I've seen just block access to
the site for the day, and I've come across a lot of those "this site
has exceeded...." pages.

Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member)
(N833R, S# CD-2 Worlds oldest Debonair)
www.rogerhalstead.com
Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member)
(N833R, S# CD-2 Worlds oldest Debonair)
www.rogerhalstead.com
that you agreed to in your contract with them. Some ISPs may do it a
bit differently, but that's fairly normal in the industry.

tom
K0TAR

Tyas_MT wrote:

"Reg Edwards" wrote in message
...

Anything which increases traffic volume benefits Internet service

providers.

Uhm no... If a normal customer is using more bandwidth (receiving and
sending more email, committing virus controlled DDoS attacks, etc) Internet
service providers LOSE MONEY. They pay by the byte, you don't. Most
customers pay a flat fee for internet access. This is true of most Cable,
DSL, ISDN, and Dial-up setups... they are priced based on an expectation of
'normal' usage, and the ISP loses money in 'extreme' usage cases. Why I ( a
'power user') get nasty emails from ISP's and have to switch often.... this
one is good about that though.

On the tiered service, we do unlimited only, so I can't address that issue.

On the limited bytes, sounds like you are talking about a hosted site.
Totally different deal. Unless I am misunderstanding. We generally
don't do that, except on our high volume commercial customers. And then
we do charge by the byte, sort of. If a "free" site to one of our
dialup/DSL/ISDN customers gets out of hand we will speak to them about
it, of course, but nothing cuts it off automatically.

tom
K0TAR

Roger Halstead wrote:

On Fri, 23 Apr 2004 19:03:39 -0500, Tom Ring
wrote:



are not breaking the TOS agreement, ISPs don't care a rat's rear end how
much traffic you generate. You buy a pipe from the ISP and you have


Maybe you don't but many do.
They price their services based on an average user and they have a
multi tiered service.

Here if the average user is on 32 hours a month they don't complain
until you hit around 5 or 6 times the average user.

As I'm on DSL and networked 24 X 7 I pay a different rate than the
dial up customer.

Then even as a commercial user rates are based on the "bandwidth"
used. I have both a high bandwidth limit and a lot of storage, but if
my use, or my site generates traffic beyond a given point the rates go
up, or like many sites I've attempted to visit you find the "This site
has exceeded it's bandwidth limit for today", please try again
tomorrow.


every right to fill it if you can. The only exception to that would be
that you have a maximum number of hours or bytes per month. They won't
kick you if you exceed it, they just charge you an additional amount


Only if you have that agreement. Most I've seen just block access to
the site for the day, and I've come across a lot of those "this site
has exceeded...." pages.

Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member)
(N833R, S# CD-2 Worlds oldest Debonair)
www.rogerhalstead.com
Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member)
(N833R, S# CD-2 Worlds oldest Debonair)
www.rogerhalstead.com

that you agreed to in your contract with them. Some ISPs may do it a
bit differently, but that's fairly normal in the industry.

tom
K0TAR

Tyas_MT wrote:


"Reg Edwards" wrote in message
...


Anything which increases traffic volume benefits Internet service

providers.

Uhm no... If a normal customer is using more bandwidth (receiving and
sending more email, committing virus controlled DDoS attacks, etc) Internet
service providers LOSE MONEY. They pay by the byte, you don't. Most
customers pay a flat fee for internet access. This is true of most Cable,
DSL, ISDN, and Dial-up setups... they are priced based on an expectation of
'normal' usage, and the ISP loses money in 'extreme' usage cases. Why I ( a
'power user') get nasty emails from ISP's and have to switch often.... this
one is good about that though.