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#1
April 15th 12, 05:49 PM
posted to rec.radio.amateur.antenna
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The earth
"Ian" napisał w wiadomości ... "Szczepan Bialek" wrote in message .. . Hello Szczepan No, I did not say that Marconi was correct. I did say that the earth connection is not necessary in order to receive signals. I suspect that your English is not as good as we think. But you wrote that your radio have the earth/chassis. S* Hello again Szczepan. I rarely ever use the term "chassis" and I don't remember mentioning an earth on a radio. For clarification - radios can and do transmit and receive successfully without any connection to earth, either the actual ground or to an artificial earth. And what do you do with the static build up? Best Regards, S* |
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#2
April 15th 12, 06:24 PM
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The earth
"Szczepan Bialek" wrote in message
... " For clarification - radios can and do transmit and receive successfully without any connection to earth, either the actual ground or to an artificial earth. And what do you do with the static build up? Best Regards, S* Hello Szczepan. Static build up doesn't always happen. Regards, Ian. |
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#3
April 15th 12, 08:53 PM
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The earth
On Sun, 15 Apr 2012 18:49:08 +0200, "Szczepan Bialek"
wrote: And what do you do with the static build up? Best Regards, S* Use a static electricity dissipator: https://www.google.com/search?q=static+dissipator&tbm=isch Commonly found on airplane wing tips, fiberglass hull vessels, and ungrounded towers prone to lightning hits. A 1M resistor to ground will discharge any static build up across a base insulated tower. http://www.lbagroup.com/international/tower-lightning-protection.php http://www.lpsnet.com/ALS.asp I'm not sure why you're arguing about grounding antennas. There are plenty of examples of antennas that operate without a ground. If low frequencies are your immediate concern, may I point out that DF loop antennas are very popular on the beacon bands (200-400KHz). They also work nicely in airplanes, where there's no available earth ground. BCB is no different. There were plenty of antique home receivers that used either an internal or external loop (or loopstick) antenna, that didn't require a ground connection. If BCB stations decided to use horizontal dipoles instead of vertical monopoles, a ground would not be needed. The only reason they need a ground is to act as the counterpoise for the monopole. This provides the missing 1/4 wave element of the dipole. -- Jeff Liebermann 150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558 |
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#4
April 16th 12, 09:15 AM
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The earth
"Jeff Liebermann" napisal w wiadomosci ... On Sun, 15 Apr 2012 18:49:08 +0200, "Szczepan Bialek" wrote: And what do you do with the static build up? Best Regards, S* Use a static electricity dissipator: https://www.google.com/search?q=static+dissipator&tbm=isch Commonly found on airplane wing tips, fiberglass hull vessels, and ungrounded towers prone to lightning hits. A 1M resistor to ground will discharge any static build up across a base insulated tower. http://www.lbagroup.com/international/tower-lightning-protection.php http://www.lpsnet.com/ALS.asp I'm not sure why you're arguing about grounding antennas. There are plenty of examples of antennas that operate without a ground. If low frequencies are your immediate concern, may I point out that DF loop antennas are very popular on the beacon bands (200-400KHz). They also work nicely in airplanes, where there's no available earth ground. BCB is no different. There were plenty of antique home receivers that used either an internal or external loop (or loopstick) antenna, that didn't require a ground connection. If BCB stations decided to use horizontal dipoles instead of vertical monopoles, a ground would not be needed. The only reason they need a ground is to act as the counterpoise for the monopole. This provides the missing 1/4 wave element of the dipole. I am not arguing. I agree with you that " they need a ground is to act as the counterpoise for the monopole." I hope that you agree with me that monopole on the plane/satellite has the counterpoise in form of chassis. S* |
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#5
April 16th 12, 09:27 AM
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The earth
Szczepan Bialek wrote:
I am not arguing. I agree with you that " they need a ground is to act as the counterpoise for the monopole." I hope that you agree with me that monopole on the plane/satellite has the counterpoise in form of chassis. S* You claimed that ANY transmitter with ANY antenna ALWAYS needs an earth connection. That is incorrect. If Marconi claimed that, Marconi was wrong. Now you are more and more restricting the playing field by talking about AM transmitters, monopoles, etc. And by extending your definition of "an earth connection" to a chassis. This of course leads to nothing. The original claim is still wrong. |
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#6
April 16th 12, 09:40 AM
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The earth
"Rob" napisal w wiadomosci ... Szczepan Bialek wrote: I am not arguing. I agree with you that " they need a ground is to act as the counterpoise for the monopole." I hope that you agree with me that monopole on the plane/satellite has the counterpoise in form of chassis. S* You claimed that ANY transmitter with ANY antenna ALWAYS needs an earth connection. That is incorrect. If Marconi claimed that, Marconi was wrong. Now you are more and more restricting the playing field by talking about AM transmitters, monopoles, etc. And by extending your definition of "an earth connection" to a chassis. This of course leads to nothing. The original claim is still wrong. The original Marconi's claim was: In 1909 Marconi wrote: http://www.nobelprize.org/nobel_priz...ni-lecture.pdf "The necessity or utility of the earth connection has been sometimes questioned, but in my opinion no practical system of wireless telegraphy exists where the instruments are not connected to earth.""By "connected to earth" I do not necessarily mean an ordinary metallicconnection as used for ordinary wire telegraphs.The earth wire may have a condenser in series with it, or it may beconnected to what is really equivalent, a capacity area placed close to thesurfaceof the ground (Fig. 4).It is now perfectly well known that a condenser, if large enough, does notprevent the passage of high frequency oscillations, and therefore in thesecasesthe earth is for all practical purposes connected to the antennae."Is the original claim wrong?S* |
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#7
April 16th 12, 09:51 AM
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The earth
Szczepan Bialek wrote:
"Rob" napisal w wiadomosci ... Szczepan Bialek wrote: I am not arguing. I agree with you that " they need a ground is to act as the counterpoise for the monopole." I hope that you agree with me that monopole on the plane/satellite has the counterpoise in form of chassis. S* You claimed that ANY transmitter with ANY antenna ALWAYS needs an earth connection. That is incorrect. If Marconi claimed that, Marconi was wrong. Now you are more and more restricting the playing field by talking about AM transmitters, monopoles, etc. And by extending your definition of "an earth connection" to a chassis. This of course leads to nothing. The original claim is still wrong. The original Marconi's claim was: In 1909 Marconi wrote: http://www.nobelprize.org/nobel_priz...ni-lecture.pdf "The necessity or utility of the earth connection has been sometimes questioned, but in my opinion no practical system of wireless telegraphy exists where the instruments are not connected to earth.""By "connected to earth" I do not necessarily mean an ordinary metallicconnection as used for ordinary wire telegraphs.The earth wire may have a condenser in series with it, or it may beconnected to what is really equivalent, a capacity area placed close to thesurfaceof the ground (Fig. 4).It is now perfectly well known that a condenser, if large enough, does notprevent the passage of high frequency oscillations, and therefore in thesecasesthe earth is for all practical purposes connected to the antennae."Is the original claim wrong?S* Yes, the original claim is wrong. It is wrong. Wrong. But you are not prepared to accept that. Please stop arguing. |
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#8
April 17th 12, 04:42 AM
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The earth
On 4/16/2012 3:51 AM, Rob wrote:
Szczepan wrote: The original Marconi's claim was: In 1909 Marconi wrote: http://www.nobelprize.org/nobel_priz...ni-lecture.pdf "The necessity or utility of the earth connection has been sometimes questioned, but in my opinion no practical system of wireless telegraphy exists where the instruments are not connected to earth.""By "connected to earth" I do not necessarily mean an ordinary metallicconnection as used for ordinary wire telegraphs.The earth wire may have a condenser in series with it, or it may beconnected to what is really equivalent, a capacity area placed close to thesurfaceof the ground (Fig. 4).It is now perfectly well known that a condenser, if large enough, does notprevent the passage of high frequency oscillations, and therefore in thesecasesthe earth is for all practical purposes connected to the antennae."Is the original claim wrong?S* Yes, the original claim is wrong. It is wrong. Wrong. But you are not prepared to accept that. Please stop arguing. He is a troll. Stopping feeding him would be the best idea. Google "PLONK". K0TAR |
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#9
April 16th 12, 10:13 AM
posted to rec.radio.amateur.antenna
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The earth
On 4/16/2012 3:40 AM, Szczepan Bialek wrote:
"Is the original claim wrong?S* Let me try this again in a repeating manner you might possibly be able to understand. I'm surely not going to hold my breath waiting for viable indications of comprehension, but here goes.. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. 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Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes, the man was wrong! wrong! wrong! wrong! wrong! wrong! wrong!!!! wrong! wrong! wrong! wrong! wrong! wrong! wrong! wrong! wrong! wrong! wrong! wrong! wrong! wrong! wrong! wrong! wrong! wrong! wrong! wrong! wrong! wrong! wrong! wrong! wrong! wrong! wrong! wrong! wrong! wrong! wrong! wrong! wrong! wrong! wrong! wrong! wrong! wrong! wrong! wrong! But he had an excuse.. It was 1909. Good grief... It does boggle the mind.. :| |
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#10
April 16th 12, 11:16 AM
posted to rec.radio.amateur.antenna
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The earth
In message , NM5K writes
On 4/16/2012 3:40 AM, Szczepan Bialek wrote: "Is the original claim wrong?S* Let me try this again in a repeating manner you might possibly be able to understand. I'm surely not going to hold my breath waiting for viable indications of comprehension, but here goes.. Yes. Yes, the man was wrong! But he had an excuse.. It was 1909. Good grief... It does boggle the mind.. :| In the early days of radio, most experimenters tended to think of antennas as working by RF alternating currents charging (and discharging) a big capacitor in the sky via a long, vertical wire (or multiple wires, to increase the capacity, and to minimise losses). To push and pull the current in and out of the capacitor, it was necessary to have a good, solid, zero-potential reference point, and the best one available was ground/earth (or, at sea, the hull of the ship). So, for the types of antennas being experimented with (and used) at the time, Marconi was absolutely correct. Also, it wouldn't have taken them long to appreciate the benefits of bringing the antenna system to resonance on the frequency the operators wanted (rather than it simply being an act-of-God and hope-for-the-best affair). But note that with Marconi's famous crossing the Atlantic experiment, I believe there is no documentation of exactly what frequency was used. Instead of it being something extremely low (which is what they expected), it is now thought that the signal which travelled 3000 miles would have been one of the many harmonic resonances of the antenna, as this would have been excited by the extremely wide band of frequencies created by the spark transmitter. Knowing now what frequencies cross the Atlantic in daylight, the signal might have been as high as 10 or 15MHz (frequencies which Marconi only dreamt about using!). -- Ian |
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