On Sun, 15 Apr 2012 18:49:08 +0200, "Szczepan Bialek"
wrote:

And what do you do with the static build up?
Best Regards,
S*

Use a static electricity dissipator:
https://www.google.com/search?q=static+dissipator&tbm=isch
Commonly found on airplane wing tips, fiberglass hull vessels, and
ungrounded towers prone to lightning hits. A 1M resistor to ground
will discharge any static build up across a base insulated tower.
http://www.lbagroup.com/international/tower-lightning-protection.php
http://www.lpsnet.com/ALS.asp

I'm not sure why you're arguing about grounding antennas. There are
plenty of examples of antennas that operate without a ground. If low
frequencies are your immediate concern, may I point out that DF loop
antennas are very popular on the beacon bands (200-400KHz). They also
work nicely in airplanes, where there's no available earth ground. BCB
is no different. There were plenty of antique home receivers that
used either an internal or external loop (or loopstick) antenna, that
didn't require a ground connection.

If BCB stations decided to use horizontal dipoles instead of vertical
monopoles, a ground would not be needed. The only reason they need a
ground is to act as the counterpoise for the monopole. This provides
the missing 1/4 wave element of the dipole.


--
Jeff Liebermann
150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

"Jeff Liebermann" napisal w wiadomosci
...
On Sun, 15 Apr 2012 18:49:08 +0200, "Szczepan Bialek"
wrote:

And what do you do with the static build up?
Best Regards,
S*

Use a static electricity dissipator:
https://www.google.com/search?q=static+dissipator&tbm=isch
Commonly found on airplane wing tips, fiberglass hull vessels, and
ungrounded towers prone to lightning hits. A 1M resistor to ground
will discharge any static build up across a base insulated tower.
http://www.lbagroup.com/international/tower-lightning-protection.php
http://www.lpsnet.com/ALS.asp

I'm not sure why you're arguing about grounding antennas. There are
plenty of examples of antennas that operate without a ground. If low
frequencies are your immediate concern, may I point out that DF loop
antennas are very popular on the beacon bands (200-400KHz). They also
work nicely in airplanes, where there's no available earth ground. BCB
is no different. There were plenty of antique home receivers that
used either an internal or external loop (or loopstick) antenna, that
didn't require a ground connection.

If BCB stations decided to use horizontal dipoles instead of vertical
monopoles, a ground would not be needed. The only reason they need a
ground is to act as the counterpoise for the monopole. This provides
the missing 1/4 wave element of the dipole.

I am not arguing. I agree with you that " they need a ground is to act as
the counterpoise for the monopole."
I hope that you agree with me that monopole on the plane/satellite has the
counterpoise in form of chassis.
S*

Szczepan Bialek wrote:
I am not arguing. I agree with you that " they need a ground is to act as
the counterpoise for the monopole."
I hope that you agree with me that monopole on the plane/satellite has the
counterpoise in form of chassis.
S*

You claimed that ANY transmitter with ANY antenna ALWAYS needs an
earth connection. That is incorrect. If Marconi claimed that,
Marconi was wrong.

Now you are more and more restricting the playing field by talking
about AM transmitters, monopoles, etc. And by extending your
definition of "an earth connection" to a chassis.

This of course leads to nothing. The original claim is still wrong.

"Rob" napisal w wiadomosci
...
Szczepan Bialek wrote:
I am not arguing. I agree with you that " they need a ground is to act
as
the counterpoise for the monopole."
I hope that you agree with me that monopole on the plane/satellite has
the
counterpoise in form of chassis.
S*

You claimed that ANY transmitter with ANY antenna ALWAYS needs an
earth connection. That is incorrect. If Marconi claimed that,
Marconi was wrong.

Now you are more and more restricting the playing field by talking
about AM transmitters, monopoles, etc. And by extending your
definition of "an earth connection" to a chassis.

This of course leads to nothing. The original claim is still wrong.

The original Marconi's claim was:

In 1909 Marconi wrote:
http://www.nobelprize.org/nobel_priz...ni-lecture.pdf "The necessity or utility of the earth connection has been sometimes questioned, but in my opinion no practical system of wireless telegraphy exists where the instruments are not connected to earth.""By "connected to earth" I do not necessarily mean an ordinary metallicconnection as used for ordinary wire telegraphs.The earth wire may have a condenser in series with it, or it may beconnected to what is really equivalent, a capacity area placed close to thesurfaceof the ground (Fig. 4).It is now perfectly well known that a condenser, if large enough, does notprevent the passage of high frequency oscillations, and therefore in thesecasesthe earth is for all practical purposes connected to the antennae."Is the original claim wrong?S*

Szczepan Bialek wrote:

"Rob" napisal w wiadomosci
...
Szczepan Bialek wrote:
I am not arguing. I agree with you that " they need a ground is to act
as
the counterpoise for the monopole."
I hope that you agree with me that monopole on the plane/satellite has
the
counterpoise in form of chassis.
S*

You claimed that ANY transmitter with ANY antenna ALWAYS needs an
earth connection. That is incorrect. If Marconi claimed that,
Marconi was wrong.

Now you are more and more restricting the playing field by talking
about AM transmitters, monopoles, etc. And by extending your
definition of "an earth connection" to a chassis.

This of course leads to nothing. The original claim is still wrong.

The original Marconi's claim was:

In 1909 Marconi wrote:
http://www.nobelprize.org/nobel_priz...ni-lecture.pdf "The necessity or utility of the earth connection has been sometimes questioned, but in my opinion no practical system of wireless telegraphy exists where the instruments are not connected to earth.""By "connected to earth" I do not necessarily mean an ordinary metallicconnection as used for ordinary wire telegraphs.The earth wire may have a condenser in series with it, or it may beconnected to what is really equivalent, a capacity area placed close to thesurfaceof the ground (Fig. 4).It is now perfectly well known that a condenser, if large enough, does notprevent the passage of high frequency oscillations, and therefore in thesecasesthe earth is for all practical purposes connected to the antennae."Is the original claim wrong?S*


Yes, the original claim is wrong.
It is wrong.
Wrong.

But you are not prepared to accept that.
Please stop arguing.

On 4/16/2012 3:51 AM, Rob wrote:
Szczepan wrote:
The original Marconi's claim was:

In 1909 Marconi wrote:
http://www.nobelprize.org/nobel_priz...ni-lecture.pdf "The necessity or utility of the earth connection has been sometimes questioned, but in my opinion no practical system of wireless telegraphy exists where the instruments are not connected to earth.""By "connected to earth" I do not necessarily mean an ordinary metallicconnection as used for ordinary wire telegraphs.The earth wire may have a condenser in series with it, or it may beconnected to what is really equivalent, a capacity area placed close to thesurfaceof the ground (Fig. 4).It is now perfectly well known that a condenser, if large enough, does notprevent the passage of high frequency oscillations, and therefore in thesecasesthe earth is for all practical purposes connected to the antennae."Is the original claim wrong?S*


Yes, the original claim is wrong.
It is wrong.
Wrong.

But you are not prepared to accept that.
Please stop arguing.

He is a troll. Stopping feeding him would be the best idea.

Google "PLONK".

K0TAR

On 4/16/2012 3:40 AM, Szczepan Bialek wrote:
"Is the original claim wrong?S*


Let me try this again in a repeating manner you might possibly be
able to understand. I'm surely not going to hold my breath waiting for
viable indications of comprehension, but here goes..

Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes.
Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes.
Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes.
Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes.
Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes.
Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes.
Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes.
Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes.
Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes.
Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes.
Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes.
Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes.
Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes.
Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes.
Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes.
Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes.
Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes.
Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes.
Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes.
Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes.
Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes.
Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes.
Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes.
Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes.
Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes.
Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes.
Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes.
Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes.
Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes.
Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes.
Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes.
Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes.
Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes.
Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes.
Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes.
Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes.
Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes.
Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes.
Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes.
Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes.
Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes.
Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes.
Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes.
Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes.
Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes.
Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes.
Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes.
Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes.
Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes.
Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes.
Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes.
Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes.
Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes.
Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes.
Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes.
Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes.
Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes.
Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes.
Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes.
Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes.
Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes.
Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes.
Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes.
Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes.
Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes.
Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes.
Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes.
Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes.
Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes.
Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes.
Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes.
Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes.
Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes.
Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes.
Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes.
Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes.
Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes.
Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes.
Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes.
Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes.
Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes.
Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes.
Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes.
Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes.
Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes.
Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes.
Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes.
Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes.
Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes.
Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes.
Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes.
Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes.
Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes.
Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes.
Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes.
Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes.
Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes.
Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes.
Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes.
Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes.
Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes.
Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes.
Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes.
Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes.
Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes.
Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes.
Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes.
Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes.
Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes.
Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes.
Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes.
Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes.
Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes.
Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes.
Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes.
Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes.
Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes.
Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes.
Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes.
Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes.
Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes.
Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes.
Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes.
Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes.
Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes.
Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes.
Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes.
Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes.
Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes.
Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes.
Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes.
Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes.
Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes.
Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes.
Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes.
Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes.
Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes.
Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes.
Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes.
Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes.
Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes.
Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes.
Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes.
Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes.
Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes.
Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes.
Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes.
Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes.
Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes.
Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes.
Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes.
Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes.
Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes.
Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes.
Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes.
Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes.
Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes.
Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes.
Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes.
Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes.
Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes.
Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes.
Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes.
Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes.
Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes.
Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes.
Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes.
Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes.
Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes.
Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes.
Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes.
Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes.
Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes.
Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes.
Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes.
Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes.
Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes.
Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes.
Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes.
Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes.
Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes.
Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes.
Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes.
Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes.
Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes.
Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes.
Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes.
Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes.
Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes.
Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes.
Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes.
Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes.
Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes.
Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes.
Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes.
Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes.
Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes.
Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes.
Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes.
Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes.
Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes.
Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes.
Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes.
Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes.
Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes.
Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes.
Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes.
Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes.
Yes, the man was wrong! wrong! wrong! wrong! wrong! wrong! wrong!!!!
wrong! wrong! wrong! wrong! wrong! wrong! wrong! wrong! wrong! wrong!
wrong! wrong! wrong! wrong! wrong! wrong! wrong! wrong! wrong! wrong!
wrong! wrong! wrong! wrong! wrong! wrong! wrong! wrong! wrong! wrong!
wrong! wrong! wrong! wrong! wrong! wrong! wrong! wrong! wrong! wrong!
But he had an excuse.. It was 1909.
Good grief... It does boggle the mind.. :|

In message , NM5K writes
On 4/16/2012 3:40 AM, Szczepan Bialek wrote:
"Is the original claim wrong?S*


Let me try this again in a repeating manner you might possibly be
able to understand. I'm surely not going to hold my breath waiting for
viable indications of comprehension, but here goes..

Yes.

Yes, the man was wrong!

But he had an excuse.. It was 1909.
Good grief... It does boggle the mind.. :|

In the early days of radio, most experimenters tended to think of
antennas as working by RF alternating currents charging (and
discharging) a big capacitor in the sky via a long, vertical wire (or
multiple wires, to increase the capacity, and to minimise losses).

To push and pull the current in and out of the capacitor, it was
necessary to have a good, solid, zero-potential reference point, and the
best one available was ground/earth (or, at sea, the hull of the ship).
So, for the types of antennas being experimented with (and used) at the
time, Marconi was absolutely correct.

Also, it wouldn't have taken them long to appreciate the benefits of
bringing the antenna system to resonance on the frequency the operators
wanted (rather than it simply being an act-of-God and hope-for-the-best
affair).

But note that with Marconi's famous crossing the Atlantic experiment, I
believe there is no documentation of exactly what frequency was used.
Instead of it being something extremely low (which is what they
expected), it is now thought that the signal which travelled 3000 miles
would have been one of the many harmonic resonances of the antenna, as
this would have been excited by the extremely wide band of frequencies
created by the spark transmitter. Knowing now what frequencies cross the
Atlantic in daylight, the signal might have been as high as 10 or 15MHz
(frequencies which Marconi only dreamt about using!).
--
Ian

On 4/16/2012 5:16 AM, Ian Jackson wrote:


To push and pull the current in and out of the capacitor, it was
necessary to have a good, solid, zero-potential reference point, and the
best one available was ground/earth (or, at sea, the hull of the ship).
So, for the types of antennas being experimented with (and used) at the
time, Marconi was absolutely correct.

Yep.. I think the frustration tends to be difficulty in understanding
that it's just one type of system, and others that do not require any
ground connection do exist.
Which means you would have to classify his statement as incorrect in
the overall larger picture. I believe most have already stated that
while some antennas do require such a connection, any "complete"
antenna does not require one.

The vast majority of my antennas do not require any ground connection
for proper operation.
Fer instance, I'm sitting out in the woods up at my recreational living
center.. I have dipoles strung up in the trees which I leave there,
and I roll the rg-58 coax up and hang it on a tree branch when I leave.
Not a ground wire, or ground connection in sight.. And works perfectly
well. Of course, you can't really see the wires here, but "S" can trust
me, there is no ground connection. The radio is sitting on that stone
bench, and the only connections are 12v to my car battery, and rg-58
coax feeding the dipoles. "I have 80 and 40 meter dipoles fed parallel
with a single coax, and can slap a tuner on it, if I want to use some
other band. " I have videos of this radio session using almost every
band from 80m to 10m.. I went through each one seeing if they were
active. They all were, up through 10m, on that day. If one wants to
hear another band, just change the "80" in the url to "40", 20", "17",
etc.. I think they should be on the server.. I think I missed 12m
though for some reason.. Maybe no one was talking when I tuned it..
But it was open to somewhere, as I recorded Rarotonga Islands on 10m.
http://home.comcast.net/~disk200/80.wmv

Also, it wouldn't have taken them long to appreciate the benefits of
bringing the antenna system to resonance on the frequency the operators
wanted (rather than it simply being an act-of-God and hope-for-the-best
affair).

But note that with Marconi's famous crossing the Atlantic experiment, I
believe there is no documentation of exactly what frequency was used.
Instead of it being something extremely low (which is what they
expected), it is now thought that the signal which travelled 3000 miles
would have been one of the many harmonic resonances of the antenna, as
this would have been excited by the extremely wide band of frequencies
created by the spark transmitter. Knowing now what frequencies cross the
Atlantic in daylight, the signal might have been as high as 10 or 15MHz
(frequencies which Marconi only dreamt about using!).

It wouldn't surprise me too much. Heck, I've been faked out more
than once when using cheap receivers, and picking up something that
was actually not on the frequency that I thought it was. :|

On Mon, 16 Apr 2012 10:15:29 +0200, "Szczepan Bialek"
wrote:

I am not arguing.

Very well. You are debating.

I agree with you that " they need a ground is to act as
the counterpoise for the monopole."

Not true. At higher frequencies, one can use the grounded coax cable
feed to act as a crude counterpoise.

I hope that you agree with me that monopole on the plane/satellite has the
counterpoise in form of chassis.

No. You claim that because the monopole requires a ground, therefore
all antennas require a ground. That's too general a claim and is not
true, even for a monopole. For example, a very common antenna type at
2.4GHz is a "meandering 1/4 wave" antenna, which uses no ground:
http://802.11junk.com/jeffl/antennas/laptops/slides/compaq-2120us.html
Another example is the metal rim of the iPhone 4G. It's an untuned,
ungrounded, end-fed, monopole in the form of parts of a metal frame.

There's also a large distinction between a "ground" and a
counterpoise. A counterpoise is a part of the antenna system and may
be earth ground in some situations. In RF, a ground is a connection
to the earth. While there is some overlap in these definitions, your
claim, that all antennas require a ground, was presumably referring to
the earth ground, as described by your examples of broadcast towers
and static buildups.

For a satellite, there's may be a counterpoise, but no (earth) ground.
The counterpoise is unlikely because most satellites use circular
polarization (to eliminate sensitivity to orientation), using spiral
wound or pyramid shaped antenna structures that are matched to
whatever the coax cable provides. The skin of the satellite is
crammed with other antennas, solar cells, and sensors, that finding an
area sufficiently large to be considered a metal counterpoise, is
impossible.

The only thing really necessary for an antenna to function is the
radiating element. Everything else is optional and depends on what
you're trying to accomplish.

--
Jeff Liebermann
150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558