"Ian" wrote in message
...
"Szczepan Bialek" wrote in message
...

And what the electrons do in such instalation:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/technolog...ectricity.html
"
a.. It is very simple to light a building with power stolen from a
nearby radio transmitter as a farmer once proved with a barn.
b.. 1. Ensure that the building is isolated and near a powerful
transmitter
c.. 2. Fit it with a metal roof (corrugated iron works well)
d.. 3. Connect the lights between the roof and a good earth connection
e.. 4. Bask in the glow
There no the "crystal" or a diode.
What do you think. Will it be working with the diode between the light
and the roof ?

Where come from the electrons?
S*

Did you read the final comment - "I am afraid that Peter Stuart has been
misled. There is not the slightest chance of "tapping in" to the power
being radiated even from the highest power stations". That came from
someone who ran high power transmitters.

How much power input or output does a transmitter have to have in order
for it to be a "powerful" transmitter? I have a 400W transmitter around
six miles away and a 200kW transmitter around 50 miles away. Which one's
signal will be the stronger at my house?

How accurate are science based reports in the Telegraph?

Regards, Ian.

I share your skepticism, Ian, and I'd like to take it a step further.

There is real math (imagine that!) to address the notion of "stealing power
from a nearby transmitter." Free-space attenuation is given by the formula
20 log Rf + 37dB, where R is the range in Nautical Miles and f is the
frequency in MHz.

True, a close-in VLF transmitter gives good coupling and actually will light
an unconnected fluorescent tube. However, these stations are quite rare and
nobody moves near them to "steal power," since they are built in large open
areas with fences and guards. Need backup plan.

Next best bet: Get within 500 feet of a 50KW AM station, say KFI, AM-640 or
KBOI, AM-670. Per the formula, the coupling loss will be about 13 dB,
making 2500 watts of power available to you at that location. However, to
realize that power, you need an antenna with near unity gain at that
frequency. Any guesses as to how much they cost? Try $Millions. (It's
called a 600-foot tower.) Much better to call your local utility and tell
them how much you appreciate their service. Resolve to be more realistic
about power-robbing schemes.

COMING NEXT ON THE POWER ROBBER CHANNEL: Tap into your neighbor's garden
lights -- it's easy!

73,
"Sal"

"Sal M. O'Nella" wrote in message
...

I share your skepticism, Ian, and I'd like to take it a step further.

There is real math (imagine that!) to address the notion of "stealing
power from a nearby transmitter." Free-space attenuation is given by the
formula
20 log Rf + 37dB, where R is the range in Nautical Miles and f is the
frequency in MHz.

True, a close-in VLF transmitter gives good coupling and actually will
light an unconnected fluorescent tube. However, these stations are quite
rare and nobody moves near them to "steal power," since they are built in
large open areas with fences and guards. Need backup plan.

Next best bet: Get within 500 feet of a 50KW AM station, say KFI, AM-640
or KBOI, AM-670. Per the formula, the coupling loss will be about 13 dB,
making 2500 watts of power available to you at that location. However, to
realize that power, you need an antenna with near unity gain at that
frequency. Any guesses as to how much they cost? Try $Millions. (It's
called a 600-foot tower.) Much better to call your local utility and tell
them how much you appreciate their service. Resolve to be more realistic
about power-robbing schemes.

COMING NEXT ON THE POWER ROBBER CHANNEL: Tap into your neighbor's garden
lights -- it's easy!

73,
"Sal"

Hello Sal. Thank you very much for the maths and the workings. Stories of
"getting useable power from a transmitter" are always hard to track to an
accurate source. The nearst I've gotten is a friend who knew of a cottage
with a 33kV power line passing overhead. Seems that some turns of wire were
fitted under the cottage's eaves and some useful power was obtained.
Transfoemer action, I assume.
I've read science fiction stories form the 1930s where "broadcast power" was
in general use. One story had all users switch off their powere receivers so
that the authorities could D/F a wanted person by measuring the strength of
the power field. Ah - unfettered imagination though induction does work when
the power source and appliance are close together.

73, Ian.

On Fri, 1 Jun 2012 13:16:33 -0700, "Sal M. O'Nella"
wrote:

There is real math (imagine that!) to address the notion of "stealing power
from a nearby transmitter." Free-space attenuation is given by the formula
20 log Rf + 37dB, where R is the range in Nautical Miles and f is the
frequency in MHz.

I beg to differ and hair split. The free space attenuation formula
works nicely at a distance of about 1 wavelength or more away from the
antenna. However, at the broadcast band wavelength of about 300
meters (about 1000ft), any attempt to steal power will probably
require near field calculations, or perhaps just transformer action.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Near_and_far_field

Next best bet: Get within 500 feet of a 50KW AM station, say KFI, AM-640 or
KBOI, AM-670.

RF safety exposure limits at 500ft for a 50KW AM station and 0dBi
antenna gain, yields about 1.5 mw/cm2. The safe limit is 100mw/cm2.
http://kb9mwr.dyndns.org/n9zia/rfsafety.main.cgi
Therefore, it is safe to approach the antenna without fear of having
your brain morph into Mr. Bialek. At about 60ft is becomes officially
unsafe.

Per the formula, the coupling loss will be about 13 dB,
making 2500 watts of power available to you at that location. However, to
realize that power, you need an antenna with near unity gain at that
frequency. Any guesses as to how much they cost? Try $Millions. (It's
called a 600-foot tower.) Much better to call your local utility and tell
them how much you appreciate their service. Resolve to be more realistic
about power-robbing schemes.

Technology to the rescue. Once upon a time in the 1960's, I lived in
Smog Angeles and worked part time next to an AM station. Surrounding
the antenna was the requisite chain link security fence, which had
several gaps in the fence for access gates. If one of the gates was
left open, forming a 1 turn coil, I could draw a small arc across the
gap with a clip lead. I wanted to fake an electrocution by bridging a
gate with both arms, but chickened out. When the station personnel
found out what us juvenile delinquents were doing, they promptly
buried a wire across each gate to short out the gaps, and changed the
locks on the gates.

Incidentally, locating the Gertsch/Singer (manufacturer of
communications service monitors) factory next to an AM broadcast
station (I forgot the call sign) in LA was not a great idea.

COMING NEXT ON THE POWER ROBBER CHANNEL: Tap into your neighbor's garden
lights -- it's easy!

Yech... The next revolution in home alternative energy will be the
nuclear powered underground water heater and the solar powered steam
plant. Dispose of hot nuclear waste and run your water heater at the
same time. If you do the math, solar steam power is cheaper and more
efficient than solar cells.

Somewhat more seriously, I've been reading about nantennas for solar
power. With 85% theoretical efficiency, it sure looks promising.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nantenna
http://www.inl.gov/pdfs/nantenna.pdf
Maybe there's a place for RF engineers in alternative energy. All I
need to do is build a 3,000GHz antenna farm and find a diode that
works at that frequency.

--
Jeff Liebermann
150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

"Jeff Liebermann" napisal w wiadomosci
...

Somewhat more seriously, I've been reading about nantennas for solar
power. With 85% theoretical efficiency, it sure looks promising.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nantenna
http://www.inl.gov/pdfs/nantenna.pdf
Maybe there's a place for RF engineers in alternative energy. All I
need to do is build a 3,000GHz antenna farm and find a diode that
works at that frequency.

The principle of nantenas is the same as the crystal radio.
The size of the antenna must be below 1/2 WL.

For RF each diode is O.K.

The question is if the electrons flow into the ground.

Do you know the answer?
S*

Szczepan Bialek wrote:

"Jeff Liebermann" napisal w wiadomosci
...

Somewhat more seriously, I've been reading about nantennas for solar
power. With 85% theoretical efficiency, it sure looks promising.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nantenna
http://www.inl.gov/pdfs/nantenna.pdf
Maybe there's a place for RF engineers in alternative energy. All I
need to do is build a 3,000GHz antenna farm and find a diode that
works at that frequency.

The principle of nantenas is the same as the crystal radio.

Not quite.

The size of the antenna must be below 1/2 WL.

Nope.

For RF each diode is O.K.

Babble.

The question is if the electrons flow into the ground.

The question is if you can tie your own shoes.

Do you know the answer?

Yes, most all of us know the answers.

It is only you that is totally lost in babbling nonsense.

On Sat, 2 Jun 2012 19:51:48 +0200, "Szczepan Bialek"
wrote:

The principle of nantenas is the same as the crystal radio.
The size of the antenna must be below 1/2 WL.

Please read the PDF I included. The length of the dipole can be any
multiple of 1/2 wavelength. It can also be a loop antenna. What's
critical is the spacing between the antenna and the underlying ground
plane, which form a resonant cavity at optical frequencies.

For RF each diode is O.K.

Please read the Wikipedia article:
The large loss in power is a result of the junction
capacitance (also known as parasitic capacitance) found
in p-n junction diodes and Schottky diodes, which can
only operate effectively at frequencies less than 5 THz.[3]
The ideal wavelengths of 0.4-1.6 um correspond to
frequencies of approximately 190-750 THz, which is much
larger than the capabilities of typical diodes. etc...
This isn't going to work with ordinary diodes.

The question is if the electrons flow into the ground.

Nope. The question is whether there are any electrons involved. There
are none.

Do you know the answer?

Yes... I know everything. If you unable to form a suitable opinion, I
would be happy to supply one for you.

Everyone constantly repeating that there are no electrons falling to
the ground or spewn into the air doesn't seem to have much of an
effect on you. You are also apparently incapable of answering my
question (multiple times). I see no indication that you have read,
much less understand, any of the references and explanations supplied
for your benefit. You are therefore hopeless and a waste of time.

--
Jeff Liebermann
150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

"Jeff Liebermann" napisal w wiadomosci
news
On Sat, 2 Jun 2012 19:51:48 +0200, "Szczepan Bialek"
wrote:

The principle of nantenas is the same as the crystal radio.
The size of the antenna must be below 1/2 WL.

Please read the PDF I included. The length of the dipole can be any
multiple of 1/2 wavelength. It can also be a loop antenna. What's
critical is the spacing between the antenna and the underlying ground
plane, which form a resonant cavity at optical frequencies.

For RF each diode is O.K.

Please read the Wikipedia article:
The large loss in power is a result of the junction
capacitance (also known as parasitic capacitance) found
in p-n junction diodes and Schottky diodes, which can
only operate effectively at frequencies less than 5 THz.[3]
The ideal wavelengths of 0.4-1.6 um correspond to
frequencies of approximately 190-750 THz, which is much
larger than the capabilities of typical diodes. etc...
This isn't going to work with ordinary diodes.

RF = radio frequency.

The question is if the electrons flow into the ground.

Nope. The question is whether there are any electrons involved. There
are none.

"The simplest crystal radio receiver, employing an antenna and a
demodulating diode (rectifier), is actually a rectenna - although it
discards the DC component before sending the signal to the earphones. People
living near strong radio transmitters would occasionally discover that with
a long receiving antenna, they could get enough electric power to light a
light bulb"

Where the DC component is discard?
What is the DC component made of?

Do you know the answer?

Yes... I know everything. If you unable to form a suitable opinion, I
would be happy to supply one for you.

Everyone constantly repeating that there are no electrons falling to
the ground or spewn into the air doesn't seem to have much of an
effect on you. You are also apparently incapable of answering my
question (multiple times). I see no indication that you have read,
much less understand, any of the references and explanations supplied
for your benefit. You are therefore hopeless and a waste of time.

"The electrical grid, which is normally three-phase AC, can be severely
disrupted by the presence of a large DC bias. This is caused by strong solar
flares hitting the Earth's atmosphere,(Even pipelines, such as the mostly
above-groundAlaska Pipeline, are prone to this, and must be tied to
electrical ground".

Now you are only one. Two days ago Jimp wrote:
"It has been explained to you several times that any electron emmission
from the ends of an antenna is an abnormal situation, is NOT required
for antenna operation, and is an independant phenomena of normal antenna
operation."

So we have done the first step: "electrons falling to the ground or spewn
into the air" are the abnormal situations".

The next step will be "L. Lorenz is right".
S*

Szczepan Bialek wrote:

"The electrical grid, which is normally three-phase AC, can be severely
disrupted by the presence of a large DC bias. This is caused by strong solar
flares hitting the Earth's atmosphere,(Even pipelines, such as the mostly
above-groundAlaska Pipeline, are prone to this, and must be tied to
electrical ground".

The electrical grid has nothing to do with antennas and the structures
being discussed are usually miles long in size.

There are no antennas miles long in size.

Now you are only one. Two days ago Jimp wrote:
"It has been explained to you several times that any electron emmission
from the ends of an antenna is an abnormal situation, is NOT required
for antenna operation, and is an independant phenomena of normal antenna
operation."

So we have done the first step: "electrons falling to the ground or spewn
into the air" are the abnormal situations".

No, we do not.

Even in a solar flare there are no "electrons falling to the ground or
spewn into the air".

Solar flare effects at ground level are magnetic effects.

The next step will be "L. Lorenz is right".
S*

The next step should be to get you into a mental hospital.

On Sun, 3 Jun 2012 17:03:12 -0000, wrote:

Solar flare effects at ground level are magnetic effects.

Thanks. There's an all too common misconception that the engergetic
charged particles produced by solar flares, solar storms, solar wind,
CME's, etc somehow land on the power lines, which then appears as a DC
voltage on the lines. That's not how it works at ground level. This
explains it better than I could:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geomagnetically_induced_current


--
Jeff Liebermann
150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

On 6/2/2012 12:51 PM, Szczepan Bialek wrote:
"Jeff napisal w wiadomosci
...

Somewhat more seriously, I've been reading about nantennas for solar
power. With 85% theoretical efficiency, it sure looks promising.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nantenna
http://www.inl.gov/pdfs/nantenna.pdf
Maybe there's a place for RF engineers in alternative energy. All I
need to do is build a 3,000GHz antenna farm and find a diode that
works at that frequency.

The principle of nantenas is the same as the crystal radio.
The size of the antenna must be below 1/2 WL.

For RF each diode is O.K.

The question is if the electrons flow into the ground.

Do you know the answer?
S*



Yes I know the answer.

No.

tom
K0TAR